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Water params according to Nutrafin Tests
- Thread starter Loggerhead
- Start date
danmhippo":21n87d1o said:Most tanks would start to snow shower by the time you hit 600ppm ca.
Not unless it had the carbonate there for form the calcium carbonate
With low alk high ca is possible.
So like I stated leave it be. Stop the kalk and see where it all balances out.
Leaving it be is a really dumb thing to do in this case.
The accuracy of the test kits needs to be determined. If they are accurate a tank crash in the near future is a strong possibility (something Beaslbob is VERY familiar with!). In my opinion, starting a series of water changes is a good idea even if it is later determined to just be the test kits.
The accuracy of the test kits needs to be determined. If they are accurate a tank crash in the near future is a strong possibility (something Beaslbob is VERY familiar with!). In my opinion, starting a series of water changes is a good idea even if it is later determined to just be the test kits.
beaslbob":iwqebl5c said:beaslbob
Reefkeeper
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 666
Location: huntsville, al
the post of the beast :twisted:
Beaslbob,
i have noticed something in past threads that maybe i should state.
that is, many here don't agree with your advice and while you have every right to state your opinion here and advise anyone you like, you shouldn't continue to push your opinion on newbies when it so often is an unpopular opinion.
i don't like the idea of anyone driving a member towards any one methodolgy when all that is offered up is opinion. you said your piece... now let it ride.
BTW, this is all friendly advice on my part... i am not here to bag on your tank anything.
as for the thread in question, i try not to hop on bandwagons but i think the kit is probably crapola.
Podam:
I do appreciate your friendly advice. Perhaps I was too "blunt".
I have seen several newly established tanks on these boards which reported 600-800ppm calcium. Usually with a calcium source like crushed coral or dead coral decorations. It seems to me that when a newbie uses those, fills a tank with fw, and adds the salt, then a high amount of calcium would be expected. Then after a little while the calcium would decrease to normal values just as part of the normal stabilization of the tank.
In this particular case Kalk was being added. Therefore, calcium is being added without the carbonate ion. With the resulting high calcium and low carbonate.
With a tank that has thriving livestock and is otherwise ok, the safest thing to do is to just stop adding the kalk and monitor what happens.
To me it just appears that the calcium load of the livestock is not consuming the calcium being added.
Sure you could check the test kit, and that may be the problem.
but I suspect the test kit is accurate.
and sure it could also be low mag.
But what should he do? Reach for another bottle to dose the system with? Start chasing parameters? Add a third supplement? Spend $100s on equipment to correct this "problem"?
Or simply cut back on the kalk and monitor what happens.
Perhaps you or others can tell me where in this particular case that logic is incorrect? And BTW stopping the kalk is doing something.
I do appreciate your friendly advice. Perhaps I was too "blunt".
I have seen several newly established tanks on these boards which reported 600-800ppm calcium. Usually with a calcium source like crushed coral or dead coral decorations. It seems to me that when a newbie uses those, fills a tank with fw, and adds the salt, then a high amount of calcium would be expected. Then after a little while the calcium would decrease to normal values just as part of the normal stabilization of the tank.
In this particular case Kalk was being added. Therefore, calcium is being added without the carbonate ion. With the resulting high calcium and low carbonate.
With a tank that has thriving livestock and is otherwise ok, the safest thing to do is to just stop adding the kalk and monitor what happens.
To me it just appears that the calcium load of the livestock is not consuming the calcium being added.
Sure you could check the test kit, and that may be the problem.
but I suspect the test kit is accurate.
and sure it could also be low mag.
But what should he do? Reach for another bottle to dose the system with? Start chasing parameters? Add a third supplement? Spend $100s on equipment to correct this "problem"?
Or simply cut back on the kalk and monitor what happens.
Perhaps you or others can tell me where in this particular case that logic is incorrect? And BTW stopping the kalk is doing something.
Either the system is in a precarious predicament or the test kits are bad. I agree completely that dosing Kalkwasser should be temporarily suspended until water parameters are back to normal. Just fyi - Kalk does not just add Calcium. It actually adds twice as much Carbonate as it does Calcium. That's what makes it such a good additive because this is the exact ratio that corals consume these two ions.
Doing nothing and letting the levels "settle out" will take months before water levels are anywhere near normal. In the meantime the leather corals and many other organisms would probably be doomed from a lack of Carbonate and water stability. That's the flaw in your logic. I can't see watching everything die as a desireable option.
A series of water changes will restore the water levels to normal if they are as out of balance as the tests indicate and it won't do any harm if it turns out that the test kits are bad. I don't understand why this is interpreted as spending "$100s on equipment" but then, I'm not really a fan of your type of logic.
Doing nothing and letting the levels "settle out" will take months before water levels are anywhere near normal. In the meantime the leather corals and many other organisms would probably be doomed from a lack of Carbonate and water stability. That's the flaw in your logic. I can't see watching everything die as a desireable option.
A series of water changes will restore the water levels to normal if they are as out of balance as the tests indicate and it won't do any harm if it turns out that the test kits are bad. I don't understand why this is interpreted as spending "$100s on equipment" but then, I'm not really a fan of your type of logic.
Well let's see what we have here. dosing calcium hydroxide nightly, biweekly water changes, high calcium, low alk.
Seems to me the high calcium has precipitated carbonate resulting in the low alk.
Water changes will not and have not corrected that situation.
So stop the kalk and keep an eye on things.
I am sorry that is illogical.
One concern I do have is why the ph is not higher. Especially when adding the hydroxide ion. You my find your ph will drop indicating a build up of carbon dioxide hence my first post here.
Seems to me the high calcium has precipitated carbonate resulting in the low alk.
Water changes will not and have not corrected that situation.
So stop the kalk and keep an eye on things.
I am sorry that is illogical.
One concern I do have is why the ph is not higher. Especially when adding the hydroxide ion. You my find your ph will drop indicating a build up of carbon dioxide hence my first post here.
Mailorder some real test kits. If price were synonymous with quality, that Hagen crap would be on top. If you need accuracy, they can't even try to compete. IME their calcium tests are notoriously bad, though most of the others have such vague color charts that you can almost just taste your water and pick a number and be within the same degree of accuracy.
And you probably won't find them anywhere in town.. Hagen is so strongly carried because they tend to be very good to their customers (the stores), not because it's a superior product.
And you probably won't find them anywhere in town.. Hagen is so strongly carried because they tend to be very good to their customers (the stores), not because it's a superior product.
****UPDATE****
Mixed up new water, tested with hagen kits
ph = still unknown precisely, color doesn't match up at all with anything on the provided chart, unless my ph is above 9.0 from RO/DI water.
KH = 130 mg/L ( I need to know how to convert this to a proper reading that most reefers understand.
Ca = 400 ppm perhaps the hagen kit was right after all, but for some reason I still have my doubts about it's true accuracy.
Anyway, that is 10 gallons of mix water going in to 120 (probably more like 90-100 gallons) of tank water. I probably will do another mix in a few days and keep going until things level out a bit. I plan to take it slowly and test everything before it goes into my tank, and then again afterwards to see the effect.
Anyway, I suppose I need to get some more accurate test kits, Hagen is good for KH according to most people, but I'm thinking Salifert for important stuff like Ca. That means mail order as the best I can find is Red Sea within a reasonable driving distance, and I am just tired of question marks going off in my head regarding these kits.
Mixed up new water, tested with hagen kits
ph = still unknown precisely, color doesn't match up at all with anything on the provided chart, unless my ph is above 9.0 from RO/DI water.
KH = 130 mg/L ( I need to know how to convert this to a proper reading that most reefers understand.
Ca = 400 ppm perhaps the hagen kit was right after all, but for some reason I still have my doubts about it's true accuracy.
Anyway, that is 10 gallons of mix water going in to 120 (probably more like 90-100 gallons) of tank water. I probably will do another mix in a few days and keep going until things level out a bit. I plan to take it slowly and test everything before it goes into my tank, and then again afterwards to see the effect.
Anyway, I suppose I need to get some more accurate test kits, Hagen is good for KH according to most people, but I'm thinking Salifert for important stuff like Ca. That means mail order as the best I can find is Red Sea within a reasonable driving distance, and I am just tired of question marks going off in my head regarding these kits.
beaslbob":261vf878 said:Podam:
I do appreciate your friendly advice. Perhaps I was too "blunt".
I have seen several newly established tanks on these boards which reported 600-800ppm calcium. Usually with a calcium source like crushed coral or dead coral decorations. It seems to me that when a newbie uses those, fills a tank with fw, and adds the salt, then a high amount of calcium would be expected. Then after a little while the calcium would decrease to normal values just as part of the normal stabilization of the tank.
In this particular case Kalk was being added. Therefore, calcium is being added without the carbonate ion. With the resulting high calcium and low carbonate.
With a tank that has thriving livestock and is otherwise ok, the safest thing to do is to just stop adding the kalk and monitor what happens.
To me it just appears that the calcium load of the livestock is not consuming the calcium being added.
Sure you could check the test kit, and that may be the problem.
but I suspect the test kit is accurate.
and sure it could also be low mag.
But what should he do? Reach for another bottle to dose the system with? Start chasing parameters? Add a third supplement? Spend $100s on equipment to correct this "problem"?
Or simply cut back on the kalk and monitor what happens.
Perhaps you or others can tell me where in this particular case that logic is incorrect? And BTW stopping the kalk is doing something.
let me say this without delving into everything that i percieve as a flaw in your reefkeeping habits.
the thing that jumps out at me regarding the problem that Loggerhead is experiencing (it's right in the title) is the test kit. even Loggerhead must have been skeptical as he (or she) listed the brand in the title.
if i posted a thread entitled "my homemade synthetic sea salt parameters" and within it i described the same test results as Loggerhead has done, and also that these were determined with a salifert test kit, i would hope you would inquire as to what and how i made my own synthetic sea salt as opposed to sending me after new test kits.
most every problem thread started here has more than one possible cause and often have many probable causes. then there are always loads of improbable causes too.
i see most of your responses to be outlines of improbable causes that are riddled with innaccuracies.
for instance, adding just plain dead or crushed coral will not maintain calcium levels in a tank housing calcifying corals, kalkwasser is not void of carbonate, adding kalwasser to a tank void of calcifying corals will not necessarily raise the calcium saturation..... but now look at me, i am delving.... :lol:
that may sound offensive but i can't seem to water it down without losing the message.
Loggerhead said:KH = 130 mg/L ( I need to know how to convert this to a proper reading that most reefers understand.
mg/L = PPM
50ppm = 1 Meq/L = 2.8 dKH
I relate best to Meq/L but a lot of reefkeepers use dKH. 2.6Meq/L is what I get for IO salt as well.
Ca = 400 ppm perhaps the hagen kit was right after all, but for some reason I still have my doubts about it's true accuracy.
This is the same value I typically get for IO salt and I use Salifert test kits.
Anyway, that is 10 gallons of mix water going in to 120 (probably more like 90-100 gallons) of tank water. I probably will do another mix in a few days and keep going until things level out a bit. I plan to take it slowly and test everything before it goes into my tank, and then again afterwards to see the effect.
Perfect plan in my opinion.
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