Ok, the Kevin dude that built Zilla II and Zilla III has what he calls a reverse carlson surge device. Galleon at one point had a link to a diagram at RDO but the link is now dead. The link from wetwebmedia to an article written by Dr. Carlson himself is about the 'normal' toilet flushing siphon kind of surge device. The 'reverse' kind are supposedly powered by an air pump. Anyone got a diagram? I can't seem to reconstruct a meaninful schematic from written descriptions.
Ghetto Surge Devices
- Thread starter RobertoVespucci
- Start date
I'm working on a DIY filter/surge with a possible alternating surges.
Will post if I get it working for a week or so.
As I understand it the reverse carlson just means the water fills the device from the bottom instead of the top. (or vice versa for that matter). Don't know about the air pump.
Carlson surge device just uses a u tube to make and break a syphon.
Will post if I get it working for a week or so.
As I understand it the reverse carlson just means the water fills the device from the bottom instead of the top. (or vice versa for that matter). Don't know about the air pump.
Carlson surge device just uses a u tube to make and break a syphon.
Yeah, see that's the thing, Dr. Carlson's article /clearly/ shows a typical surge tank setup. I've seen two videos of these things firing and they are definitely not the same. First, they suck water from the tank when they fire, secondly, instead of water blowing out of the pipes air blows.
http://www.tidalgardens.com/images/greenhouse/rcsd.mov
40 megs, and slow
spsmike: Cool, but not really what I'm after. Actually, if I was going to go the powerhead route I think I would tie them into a powerswitch with a serial connection for control. One more thing to load my server with.
http://www.tidalgardens.com/images/greenhouse/rcsd.mov
40 megs, and slow
spsmike: Cool, but not really what I'm after. Actually, if I was going to go the powerhead route I think I would tie them into a powerswitch with a serial connection for control. One more thing to load my server with.
I've built the flush valve one as well, with some minor modifications to make it bubbleless (the big key here is to a) have the flush valve close before the water drains 
, and b) make sure all the piping is super tight (glued) so air can't be pulled through the joint seams by the suction the water is creating by being suspended). It's fairly quiet as well, you obviously hear the flush sound of water rushing, and of course no gurgle slurp sound at the end of the surge
The one I made was an 18 gallon rubbermaid on a 30gallon tank I used as a coral prop.. there were issues like the sunlight (which I used exclusively for lighting) heatting the tank water up to 90F and the fact softies didn't seem to like a surge. So I tore down the project.
, and b) make sure all the piping is super tight (glued) so air can't be pulled through the joint seams by the suction the water is creating by being suspended). It's fairly quiet as well, you obviously hear the flush sound of water rushing, and of course no gurgle slurp sound at the end of the surge The one I made was an 18 gallon rubbermaid on a 30gallon tank I used as a coral prop.. there were issues like the sunlight (which I used exclusively for lighting) heatting the tank water up to 90F and the fact softies didn't seem to like a surge. So I tore down the project.
This is what I am going after:
designed by Robert Michelson
BTW, check this guy web site,http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM/MICHELSONAquarium.html A Carlson surge device provides an intermittent flow of moderate duration (a function of the surge device reservoir volume) and adjustable surge frequency (a function of the reservoir fill rate). The surge produced is fairly realistic in that it creates a constant mass flow during the surge, and can be timed to provide surges of duration similar to those encountered on the wild reef. The surge device has no moving parts and does not require cycling of a pump. The surge device relies on the creation of a siphon to automatically drain a reservoir at a flow rate several times greater than its constant fill rate. As the pump draws water from the show tank (or other source within the closed circulation system), it is pumped into a reservoir that is physically above the show tank water line. A siphon tube extends from the bottom inside of the reservoir, up through the side of the reservoir (at a point about 95 percent up the height of the reservoir), down the outside of the reservoir, and into the show tank. The external end of the siphon must extend down into the water of the show tank in order to provide a slight back pressure which helps the siphon to start automatically. When the reservoir fills to the top of the siphon, the inner half of the siphon tube will also be full. As the pump continues to raise the water level in the reservoir above the upper bend in the siphon tube, water will begin to spill over the bend in the tube and flow down into the show tank. This will create a siphon action that rapidly drains the reservoir into the show tank.
Several parameters are critical to the correct operation of the surge device. First, the siphon tube must be of sufficient diameter to allow the reservoir to drain faster than it can be filled by the pump-- otherwise the flow would simply be continuous and equivalent to that of the pump, or on the other hand, if the pumped flow is greater than the siphon flow, the reservoir will overflow.
The siphon tube must extend to the bottom of the inside of the reservoir otherwise the reservoir will never completely drain. Also, the siphon output must extend below the show tank water surface for the siphon to start automatically. Finally, as mentioned above, the reservoir must be physically higher than the show tank water level for the siphon to work.
Adjusting the flow rate into the reservoir is easily accomplished with a valve to restrict the flow. In the event that the siphon were to become clogged, the reservoir would overflow, so the reservoir should be a closed container that is airtight except for a vent hole at the top. Were the reservoir to overflow, the water would go out the vent at the top where it can be channeled harmlessly back into the aquarium by means of an overflow tube. During normal operation, this vent and overflow tube allow air to escape from the closed reservoir chamber as air is displaced by the incoming water. The vent also prevents a vacuum from occurring during the rapid outflow when the siphon is active. The overflow tube must be placed just above the surface of the show tank water and not allowed to extend beneath the surface. Otherwise, as the reservoir fills, air expelled through the vent would bubble out the end of the overflow tube. This would be noisy and not very attractive. Also during the siphoning of the water in the reservoir, water would either be sucked back into the reservoir through the overflow vent, or more likely, the operation of the siphon would be inhibited.
A point of major concern in the design of the surge device was noise mitigation. By making the reservoir totally airtight except for the pump input, siphon output, and the overflow vent, filling and siphoning noises are contained. The bottom of the siphon tube inside the reservoir is cut at a 2 degree angle relative to the flat reservoir bottom to allow the siphon to “break” quickly without excessive gurgling. The pump fills the reservoir from the bottom to prevent the splashing that would occur were the water to fall in from the top. Finally, noise is abated by placing the reservoir on a foam pad to isolate internal sounds from being transmitted through the base into its supporting structure. As a result, these surge devices are silent.
designed by Robert Michelson
BTW, check this guy web site,http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM/MICHELSONAquarium.html A Carlson surge device provides an intermittent flow of moderate duration (a function of the surge device reservoir volume) and adjustable surge frequency (a function of the reservoir fill rate). The surge produced is fairly realistic in that it creates a constant mass flow during the surge, and can be timed to provide surges of duration similar to those encountered on the wild reef. The surge device has no moving parts and does not require cycling of a pump. The surge device relies on the creation of a siphon to automatically drain a reservoir at a flow rate several times greater than its constant fill rate. As the pump draws water from the show tank (or other source within the closed circulation system), it is pumped into a reservoir that is physically above the show tank water line. A siphon tube extends from the bottom inside of the reservoir, up through the side of the reservoir (at a point about 95 percent up the height of the reservoir), down the outside of the reservoir, and into the show tank. The external end of the siphon must extend down into the water of the show tank in order to provide a slight back pressure which helps the siphon to start automatically. When the reservoir fills to the top of the siphon, the inner half of the siphon tube will also be full. As the pump continues to raise the water level in the reservoir above the upper bend in the siphon tube, water will begin to spill over the bend in the tube and flow down into the show tank. This will create a siphon action that rapidly drains the reservoir into the show tank.
Several parameters are critical to the correct operation of the surge device. First, the siphon tube must be of sufficient diameter to allow the reservoir to drain faster than it can be filled by the pump-- otherwise the flow would simply be continuous and equivalent to that of the pump, or on the other hand, if the pumped flow is greater than the siphon flow, the reservoir will overflow.
The siphon tube must extend to the bottom of the inside of the reservoir otherwise the reservoir will never completely drain. Also, the siphon output must extend below the show tank water surface for the siphon to start automatically. Finally, as mentioned above, the reservoir must be physically higher than the show tank water level for the siphon to work.
Adjusting the flow rate into the reservoir is easily accomplished with a valve to restrict the flow. In the event that the siphon were to become clogged, the reservoir would overflow, so the reservoir should be a closed container that is airtight except for a vent hole at the top. Were the reservoir to overflow, the water would go out the vent at the top where it can be channeled harmlessly back into the aquarium by means of an overflow tube. During normal operation, this vent and overflow tube allow air to escape from the closed reservoir chamber as air is displaced by the incoming water. The vent also prevents a vacuum from occurring during the rapid outflow when the siphon is active. The overflow tube must be placed just above the surface of the show tank water and not allowed to extend beneath the surface. Otherwise, as the reservoir fills, air expelled through the vent would bubble out the end of the overflow tube. This would be noisy and not very attractive. Also during the siphoning of the water in the reservoir, water would either be sucked back into the reservoir through the overflow vent, or more likely, the operation of the siphon would be inhibited.
A point of major concern in the design of the surge device was noise mitigation. By making the reservoir totally airtight except for the pump input, siphon output, and the overflow vent, filling and siphoning noises are contained. The bottom of the siphon tube inside the reservoir is cut at a 2 degree angle relative to the flat reservoir bottom to allow the siphon to “break” quickly without excessive gurgling. The pump fills the reservoir from the bottom to prevent the splashing that would occur were the water to fall in from the top. Finally, noise is abated by placing the reservoir on a foam pad to isolate internal sounds from being transmitted through the base into its supporting structure. As a result, these surge devices are silent.
Ok, I figured it out.
The big blue box is a tank.
The small blue box is the surge chamber.
The red line is a vent from the surge chamber to a return/drain whatever.
The green line is an airhose.
The surge chamber fills with air which displaces the water. When the water level in the chamber is below that of the vent loop, the air evacuates and water rushes back in. Voila.
The big blue box is a tank.
The small blue box is the surge chamber.
The red line is a vent from the surge chamber to a return/drain whatever.
The green line is an airhose.
The surge chamber fills with air which displaces the water. When the water level in the chamber is below that of the vent loop, the air evacuates and water rushes back in. Voila.
Attachments
I am not sorry for using paint
Why wouldn't this one work
Its a container, open on the bottom, with air from an air pump going in the top.
There is a vent line going from almost at the bottom of the container out the top and pointing back down into the tank in case some water splashes out during the surge.
So, the air pumps the water that is in the container out the bottom, and when the level gets below the bottom of the vent line all the water that was in the container rushes back in due to the reduced pressure.
It would have to be a pretty big vent line I would think in order to get a really good surge
Does anyone see the problem with this drawing?
Why wouldn't this one work
Its a container, open on the bottom, with air from an air pump going in the top.
There is a vent line going from almost at the bottom of the container out the top and pointing back down into the tank in case some water splashes out during the surge.
So, the air pumps the water that is in the container out the bottom, and when the level gets below the bottom of the vent line all the water that was in the container rushes back in due to the reduced pressure.
It would have to be a pretty big vent line I would think in order to get a really good surge
Does anyone see the problem with this drawing?
Attachments
Yes.
When the water level drops to the bottom of the vent, air will just be released through the vent without any further water movement. It would be a good way to build a nest for a platypus, however.
And, the surge chamber in my drawing should be open on the bottom. Your paint artistry surpasses my own. You have raised the bar, amigo!
When the water level drops to the bottom of the vent, air will just be released through the vent without any further water movement. It would be a good way to build a nest for a platypus, however.
And, the surge chamber in my drawing should be open on the bottom. Your paint artistry surpasses my own. You have raised the bar, amigo!
:lol: Paint artistry :lol:
Here is another pic as I think I know understand it.
The light green line is the vent line
the red is air from said air pump
The container is open on the bottom
So, this is my understanding of how it works
The air pump fills the container with air, thus displacing all the water, it also pushes all the water out of the vent line which must be situated so that all the water will leave it before air starts to bubble out of the bottom of the container
When the last bit of water leaves the vent line that relieves the pressure in the container which allows all the water that was in there to Rush back in.
It should be a fairly violent return shouldn't it?
Did I miss anything now?
Oh, and the platypus sentence cracked me up
:lol:
Here is another pic as I think I know understand it.
The light green line is the vent line
the red is air from said air pump
The container is open on the bottom
So, this is my understanding of how it works
The air pump fills the container with air, thus displacing all the water, it also pushes all the water out of the vent line which must be situated so that all the water will leave it before air starts to bubble out of the bottom of the container
When the last bit of water leaves the vent line that relieves the pressure in the container which allows all the water that was in there to Rush back in.
It should be a fairly violent return shouldn't it?
Did I miss anything now?
Oh, and the platypus sentence cracked me up
:lol:
Attachments
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