Removed my sandbed

[Anonymous]

I've been siphoning mine out with a 1/2 inch hose. I do about 20 gallons per weekend and have most of the sump done, but just part of the display tank. You hit snail operculums and bits of rubble etc, but it goes pretty smoothly.

I think the pods and mysids live in the rock, not in the sand, if that's an issue.

 

[Anonymous]

Well they live on the sand next to rocks I notice one such colony right in the front corner and as fishgeeky as this sounds I sort of like them Even though I have untold numbers in the refugium as well, just though I'd save a few critters in the places I know where they hide before sucking it out, although I most likely will need to remove rocks to get at some sand places (or the rocks might come tumbling down.

But I originally thought about siphoning the sand into a rubbermaid, then using a pump to push the water that comes with it back into the tank, but then thought I might be putting concentrated nasties back into the tank if I go that route, or is it just an issue of doing a major water change as you suck the stuff out with each pass (since its doubtful even with a siphon you could get all the stuff without sucking the water out.

 

[polcat]

I took mine out in three steps. Siphoned 1/2 of what I could get to one week, then the other 1/2. When I got ready to teardown and put starboard in I took the remaining (under the rock) out. I threw away all the water when I siphoned and replaced with new. No major problems...

 

[Anonymous]

Siphon is fine, but don't put that water back in your tank!

Mike that is what you get for using used sand!

 

[Anonymous]

Gotcha Rich basically I have to do a series of massive water changes then.. or is there some other fabulous method to getting getter a higher sand/water ratio.

And FYI I'm stilling using a sandbed in my main tank, and a decorative one in my 50

 

[HisKid]

I am experiencing this very same thing!! I have been wondering what to do about it. As a matter of a fact my wife and I were discussing changing out all the substrate just today!!

I am getting a ton of red slime algae that will not go away. I have literally thousands of air bubbles all over the substrate, on rocks... everywhere!!

How much time do I have before a crash occurs; is it imminant or can I save it?

 

[Anonymous]

I don't think the sandbed "event" is an overnight thing. At least not in my experience.



I think if you want to remove the bed slowly by siphoning out bit by bit during water change you will be fine. That is if you feel the bed is the source of your problems.

 

[Anonymous]

I am experiencing this very same thing!! I have been wondering what to do about it. As a matter of a fact my wife and I were discussing changing out all the substrate just today!!

I am getting a ton of red slime algae that will not go away. I have literally thousands of air bubbles all over the substrate, on rocks... everywhere!!

How much time do I have before a crash occurs; is it imminant or can I save it?

Sounds like you are having a cyano/dino bloom, not the same kind of event I experienced.

EDIT:
The bloom may or may not have anything to do with the sand bed. Instead of getting lost in this already long thread, please start a new thread where we can focus on your issues!

 

[Anonymous]

I am experiencing this very same thing!! I have been wondering what to do about it. As a matter of a fact my wife and I were discussing changing out all the substrate just today!!

I am getting a ton of red slime algae that will not go away. I have literally thousands of air bubbles all over the substrate, on rocks... everywhere!!

How much time do I have before a crash occurs; is it imminant or can I save it?

could last indefinately. cyano consumes phosphates but can take nitrogen from air like the dissolved air in your tank.

So if your sand bed has lowered nitrates and without other means like plant life to consume the phosphates then the cyano blooms. So the cyano is consuming phosphates and the bubbles are probably oxygen.

When I notice some cyano I simply harvest some of my macros to get the growth rate up and therefore the phosphate consumption also. But you may not have that option.

 

[Anonymous]

I am experiencing this very same thing!! I have been wondering what to do about it. As a matter of a fact my wife and I were discussing changing out all the substrate just today!!

I am getting a ton of red slime algae that will not go away. I have literally thousands of air bubbles all over the substrate, on rocks... everywhere!!

How much time do I have before a crash occurs; is it imminant or can I save it?

could last indefinately. cyano consumes phosphates but can take nitrogen from air like the dissolved air in your tank.

If the nitrogen is dissolved in the water, then the cyano is not taking nitrogen from the air.

When I notice some cyano I simply harvest some of my macros to get the growth rate up and therefore the phosphate consumption also. But you may not have that option.

That doesn't work in all cases - when I had a planted fuge I had a cyano outbreak even with harvesting macros and rapidly growing macros.
The release of phosphate from a sand bed can be a very localized event meaning the cyano is binding the phosphate before it hits the water, so macros don't even have a chance to consume the phosphate the cyano is using.

 

[Anonymous]

Righty

I am sure you realize that nitrAtes for the aerobic processes are ions in the water. And that dissolved gasses like nitrogen is still a gas.

Seems to me like the sand bed is actually doing it's job. Converting nitrAtes to nitrogen gas and releasing that gas right at the send bed. The sand bed does not consume phosphates so accumulates phosplates. Therefore right at the sand bed is nitrogen gass and phosphates resulting in cyano.

The idea of plant life is to keep the phosphates constantly low before they accumulate in the sand and elsewhere. Sure I have cyano. A bit here and a bit there. Which reduces when I harvest macros. What I don't have is the entire display area or sand or rocks or whatever covered in large areas of cyano. And of course the phosphates come from the bioload (food) in the system. I just find the best way of controlling phosphates and therefore cyano is with plant life.

But that seems to be counter intuitive to people who attempt to maintain sterile systems through mechanical filtration, DSBs, LR, LS, water changes, and (attempt to have) zero plant life. For instance, who would think the increasing the bioload would reduce cyano? Yet that is exactly what happens when you say add a fish. But then that only works until the plant life becomes nitrate limited again.

 

[Anonymous]

Righty

I am sure you realize that nitrAtes for the aerobic processes are ions in the water. And that dissolved gasses like nitrogen is still a gas.

But in no way is cyano taking nitrogen from the air like you stated earlier. Cyano cannot take nitrogen from the air, the nitrogen must be dissolved in the water. It is those kinds of misstatements that make me cringe when you give advice.

Seems to me like the sand bed is actually doing it's job. Converting nitrAtes to nitrogen gas and releasing that gas right at the send bed. The sand bed does not consume phosphates so accumulates phosplates. Therefore right at the sand bed is nitrogen gass and phosphates resulting in cyano.

Thats not right. The bacteria in the sand binds phosphates, and they aren't always rereleased.

The idea of plant life is to keep the phosphates constantly low before they accumulate in the sand and elsewhere. Sure I have cyano. A bit here and a bit there. Which reduces when I harvest macros. What I don't have is the entire display area or sand or rocks or whatever covered in large areas of cyano. And of course the phosphates come from the bioload (food) in the system. I just find the best way of controlling phosphates and therefore cyano is with plant life.

But, as you say, you have to nab the phosphates before they get bound up in cyano, sand, rock or whatever. If you already experiencing a cyano bloom, taking phosphates out of the water may not help because the source of the phosphates may not be in the water, rather being re released from the sand or rock.
Phosphates also enter the tank from much more than food.

But that seems to be counter intuitive to people who attempt to maintain sterile systems through mechanical filtration, DSBs, LR, LS, water changes, and (attempt to have) zero plant life.

Please stop telling other people what they think, it makes discussion difficult.


Bob, if you have nothing new to post, can we please avoid another one of these threads?

 

[Anonymous]

righty:

here is a reference:

link: http://www.copernicus.org/EGU/bg/bgd/2/ ... -261_p.pdf

...

Cyanobacterial N2-fixation supplies the vast majority of biologically accessible inorganic
nitrogen to nutrient-poor aquatic ecosystems. The process, catalyzed by the
heterodimeric protein complex, nitrogenase, is thought to predate that of oxygenic
photosynthesis.

n2 is of course nitrogen gas.

So now you know cyano bacteria get nitrogen from the nitrogen gas.

And if you don't think phosphates build up the sutstraite then you might try researching that also.

Bob

 

[Anonymous]

righty:

here is a reference:

link: http://www.copernicus.org/EGU/bg/bgd/2/ ... -261_p.pdf

...

Cyanobacterial N2-fixation supplies the vast majority of biologically accessible inorganic
nitrogen to nutrient-poor aquatic ecosystems. The process, catalyzed by the
heterodimeric protein complex, nitrogenase, is thought to predate that of oxygenic
photosynthesis.

n2 is of course nitrogen gas.

So now you know cyano bacteria get nitrogen from the nitrogen gas.

As usual, Bob, you are off and running with an argument no one but you is having. You stated that cyano can get nitrogen form the air, which is misleading.

And if you don't think phosphates build up the sutstraite then you might try researching that also.

Bob

I challenge you to show me where I indicated that phosphate does not build up in substrate.

 

[Anonymous]

I have a crushed coral bed, about 2 inches or so deep. Does anyone feel this is better/worse than a dsb. My feeling is that it seems thta a DSB traps things in an completely oxygen-free zone, whereas the cc has enough spaces due to its very coarse nature to possibly avoid this. Or is this untrue?
Is a p-release event likely to occur even with cc base?
I also think that the vacuuming/cleaning of cc is easier and allows me to pull up the detrius trapped...when I do water changes, i use the classic siphon vacuum with a 2" opening in the wand part....I stick it in, almost to the bottom and leave it in place for a few seconds, carefully lift it, and move to a new spot without stirring anything up, or as little as possible..
Seems what is veiwable from the glass portion looking in, that i get probably 70 % or more of anything in there.
Who knows? years from now, someone may state facts saying cc is the best substrate! To me, all of this is fad until someone can actually prove one way is a betetr way than another, which I think is quite impossible given the diversity of all of our tanks.

 

[Anonymous]

I have a crushed coral bed, about 2 inches or so deep. Does anyone feel this is better/worse than a dsb. My feeling is that it seems thta a DSB traps things in an completely oxygen-free zone, whereas the cc has enough spaces due to its very coarse nature to possibly avoid this. Or is this untrue?

Rght and wrong!

It is the oxygen free zone that allows a DSB to break down some of the detritus into non harmful forms. In a CC bed, the detritus simply rots without the benefit of the anaerobic bacteria.

Is a p-release event likely to occur even with cc base?

I have no idea. It is unclear how/when a p release event is likely with a DSB.

I also think that the vacuuming/cleaning of cc is easier and allows me to pull up the detrius trapped...when I do water changes, i use the classic siphon vacuum with a 2" opening in the wand part....I stick it in, almost to the bottom and leave it in place for a few seconds, carefully lift it, and move to a new spot without stirring anything up, or as little as possible..
Seems what is veiwable from the glass portion looking in, that i get probably 70 % or more of anything in there.

As long as you are exporting the goo, you should be fine. Leaving it would be worse with cc then with a DSB.

Who knows? years from now, someone may state facts saying cc is the best substrate!

Could be!

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the answers and input righty

Now that you are going bare bottom, or others are doing, can you still keep inverts like hermits? Call me ghetto, but i actually enjoy watching them! With the loss of a substrate, are you losing the ability to keep certain critters?

In other words, the bare bottom sounds like it would give the most pristine water quality, but at what cost to being able to support more diverse life?


For now, I will stay with cc, as i have no choice or time to remove/replace. However, I think it works for my methodology for now. I vacuum once a week lightly and replace with my mixed water. I guess as long as I do this I'll be ok, but I plan on a large tank in the next home that we will be having built, and will have a 300 or so tank, and this one I want to do right.
I will follow this thread and debate and see where it goes....

Thank you all for providing such an informative discussion based on your knowledge and experience. It's great to have such devoted hobbyists take the time to help us all along

 

[ChrisRD]

There are quite a few folks who still use CC substrate and just vacuum weekly as you're doing. There are some very impressive tanks out there using that method, so obviously it can work just fine. :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the answers and input righty

Now that you are going bare bottom, or others are doing, can you still keep inverts like hermits? Call me ghetto, but i actually enjoy watching them! With the loss of a substrate, are you losing the ability to keep certain critters?

Sure, without sand you cant keep critters that need sand.
BTW, even when I had sand, I didn't keep hermits.
I think keeping animals you like is a good idea, but getting animals you don't like because they are supposed 'do something' for your system isn't.

[/quote]In other words, the bare bottom sounds like it would give the most pristine water quality, but at what cost to being able to support more diverse life?[/quote]

It depends on what you want to keep. Diverse doesn't always mean better!

For now, I will stay with cc, as i have no choice or time to remove/replace. However, I think it works for my methodology for now. I vacuum once a week lightly and replace with my mixed water. I guess as long as I do this I'll be ok, but I plan on a large tank in the next home that we will be having built, and will have a 300 or so tank, and this one I want to do right.
I will follow this thread and debate and see where it goes....

"right" is a weird word. I think as long as you have an understanding of why you are doing something the way you are you will be fine.
I also think your thank and methodology will work just fine.

[/quote]Thank you all for providing such an informative discussion based on your knowledge and experience. It's great to have such devoted hobbyists take the time to help us all along[/quote]

Back at ya!

 

[HisKid]

Thanks Righty! I still decided to rebuild my sytem. I dumped the sandbed, and all the water. I've been watching this over the past couple of months. First, I thought it was my lights, then I thought it was a problem with feeding, then I bought a UV Sterilizer, then finally I stumbled on this thread... Anyway, my wife and I wanted to move the aquarium anyway, so this seemed like a good time to do the deed.

The rock looks a ton better and I am extremely happy with the result.