Water changes too frequent

[Anonymous]

(reefs post)....

You're math may be right...the way I was thinking of it was like this-if i have 6 apples, and I take 3 away, then add 3 back, the rate of exchange or difference from beginning point would be 6. Even though I have only subtracted 3 parts, I am adding a completely new set of 3 parts, making a total change to 6...
I have no idea if I am thinking the right way or you are!!! lol...any super genius math majors here at all?

with elements in our aquarium it does no make any difference because the atoms and ions are exactly the same.

In any event, Bob, I think what you are proposing COULD work, and I would never really say anything isn't possible. There may be a perfect symbiotic relationship and combination of things that would be self sustaing, and I don't think there are any one way in this hobby that is the only way to do it.

I agree there are many ways to maintain our systems. It really boils down to which method is the most goof proof and/or provides the best system. And that will vary from hobbiest to hobbiest.

I am certain nothing in nature and therefore our tanks is every completely balanced out. Our tanks will need inputs and therefore will probably never be totally self substaining. But tanks can run for 6-10 years with much less maintenance than these boards give the impression of.

Hell, I've got a 60 hex that most people would say is overstocked, but it works for me because I think my methods are being refined. But it isn't infallible. I've lost a fish here and there because of ich mostly, and it probably is from overcrowding, but I think I'm getting a good bio thing going that I may never have another death due to anything but old age, and I was getting bored with having 4 fish only.

the less you mess with it the better it will be IMO.

The part I don't get is you talk alot about what youre doing, yet you never show proof of it. Show me just a couple of RECENT pictures...like last few weeks even of your tank as it is today. Thats all I ask. If what you truly propose is a new way of thinking, and it happened to be MY idea...damn! I'd be posting pics, facts to support my way of thinking, and posting pics of my progress. I am glad you seem like such a nice guy that is willing to discuss this without being a jerk. I am just truly interested if your method can work, but I'm not going to risk my tank without proof.
Thanks!

the problem is that I have posted pictures of my methods. But here is a recent picture of my current system. There is no risk to your tank. If you don't like this then take a look at bean's tank, and cal's tank. I lnow that if you have sufficient plant life and don't do water changes things will be fine. but check out the parameters and make adjustments as you go along. Just as I added the crushed oyster shells to get my calcium up.

 

[Anonymous]

Just as I added the crushed oyster shells to get my calcium up.

More post hoc ergo proctor hoc.

And your tank look eutrophic.

 

[Anonymous]

I want to apologize for my, and others, terseness regarding Bob.

Pretty much this exact conversation has happened at least 20 times, probably more, since he joined RDO (and the same sorts of conversations have been going on with Bob longer than that on other boards). People have tried every tactic to have a meaningful discussion with him, from slow and steady point by point debate to simple flaming, but none of it seems to get through to him. What is worse, he continually mischaracterizes other peoples arguments and responses to his points.

Many are frustrated with him, but want to counter his strange advice and odd reasoning.

In other words and in so many words, unless I agree with you the discussion is not meaningful.

 

[Anonymous]

I'll bite the bullet agin...a long time ago when I used to try to keep up frequent water changes things just stayed out of wack in my "humble" case I found that incorperation of a 40 gal steralite with a 6" sand bed and 20 mangroves that branched and literaly root filled the container, in the sand, above the sand and out grew it literaly worked alot better,note I am aginst pruning them and instead trained the tops with twist ties like bozi's

it looked like a forest canopy under the cabinet, I had to cut them down literaly since the root system was so massive

so does the in crowd here want to comment on these observations?

Frequent water changes=outta whack.

By incorporating plant life things settled down?

Sounds awful familiar guys. Any comments? Or is this just another fallacy we have to hide from newbies?

Nothing surprising here.You just set up a system that maintains itself much better. Soundslike an awesome system also.

 

[Anonymous]

I want to apologize for my, and others, terseness regarding Bob.

Pretty much this exact conversation has happened at least 20 times, probably more, since he joined RDO (and the same sorts of conversations have been going on with Bob longer than that on other boards). People have tried every tactic to have a meaningful discussion with him, from slow and steady point by point debate to simple flaming, but none of it seems to get through to him. What is worse, he continually mischaracterizes other peoples arguments and responses to his points.

Many are frustrated with him, but want to counter his strange advice and odd reasoning.

In other words and in so many words, unless I agree with you the discussion is not meaningful.

No Bob. Its that you can't seem to understand other peoples points that makes the discussion less than meaningful.

 

[Anonymous]

I'll bite the bullet agin...a long time ago when I used to try to keep up frequent water changes things just stayed out of wack in my "humble" case I found that incorperation of a 40 gal steralite with a 6" sand bed and 20 mangroves that branched and literaly root filled the container, in the sand, above the sand and out grew it literaly worked alot better,note I am aginst pruning them and instead trained the tops with twist ties like bozi's

it looked like a forest canopy under the cabinet, I had to cut them down literaly since the root system was so massive

so does the in crowd here want to comment on these observations?

Frequent water changes=outta whack.

By incorporating plant life things settled down?

Sounds awful familiar guys. Any comments? Or is this just another fallacy we have to hide from newbies?

No one is hiding anything from anyone. How can you possibly keep missing the idea that planted refugiums have been part of the hobby for decades?
It is amazing to me that you continue to only see the examples that support your arguments, while ignoring the examples that don't.

And please stop trying to polarize the discussion with ridiculous junior high school terms like 'in crowd'.

 

[Anonymous]

ctgretzky99:

I know it is hard to understand. So please run the numbers to see for youself. Say 100ppm nitrates should be 0. 10% change and they are 90. Another results in 81. the next 81-8.1 etc etc. they never get to 0.

If livestock consumed trace elements and the only source of trace elements was the water, then you are correct the trace elements will be lowered. And they will be lowered slower with water changes then without. So again the situation is not corrected with water changes, just that the changes (downward in this case) is slowed. So that something that may have become critical in a month becomes critical in six months to a year. but they will still become critical.

Trace elements, calcium carbonate, magnesium, and the like come from more sources than the salt water we make up. Trace elements are added through food which comes from the marine animals and plants which needed and accumulated those elements while alive. Calcium carbonate and magnesium can be added through buffering substraits and filter media. And replacement water can contain those elements also.

Yes the plant life does bioaccumulate those things. And the bioaccumulation is porportional to the concentration of those elements in the water column. More elements more accumulation. So by having those elements provided at higher levels that are being used up, the plant life brings them closer to desired values. If those elements are below optimum, then the plant life accumulates them at a reduced level. Reducing the over lowering of those elements and again helping to maintain desired values.

Yes it is hard to understand and comprehend. Especially when every person you talk to tells you differently. But once there, the tank simply maintains itself. Without your interferring water changes.

As far a pictures go: in this thread I show Bean's and another's tank. Bean uses no water changes, the second had no plant life but was doing water changes.:
http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.p ... 03&start=0

An older thread of my tank showing some pictures:
http://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthr ... did=101556

A Fw equilivant with no glass cleaning in over 6 months:
http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=60020

and there is also my tank in the members section here.

So no water changes do work. But go ahead and change the water if you want. Just bewarned, it is possible to screwup and even crash a tank with water changes. And with the proper setup, water changes are unneeded at best and detrimental at worse.

ok, i've had enough


you are hereby nominated for the GARF award

 

[Anonymous]

Heya Bob, Try turning off the refugium light before snapping a pic you might get better color rendition.

I still don't see your name in the Buildoff.... :?

 

[Ben1]

And your tank look eutrophic.

And that’s the biggest problem here Bob. Your picture shows your system doesn’t work. It shows no coralline algae that would be there if A: You phosphate was low and B: Your CA/ALK levels were where you claim them to be.

If the refugium behind the tank is so good at eliminating the P04 and the other levels are so good then explain where is the coralline covered rock?


And a yellow tang in a 55 with probably 15 gal taken up by the in tank refugium.......


I never expect you to change your methods or see any other side here besides your own. You are happy with your tank and that is good for you. If I wanted a tank like yours I am sure I could have it. I would rather have a thriving reef system with lush coral growth. All in all I should have never responded directly to you and helped turn this into a Bob thread. Time to go play Madden with my son.

 

[coralfarmin]

not trying to take sides in this petty dispute but I think I see some coraline on his eggcrate

 

[coralfarmin]

also it looks like he used rock that may have had little or no coraline to begin with so there may have been little to seed with to start, as well he may not have much current to spread the little there

the few hardy corals he has appear to be expanded nicely

 

[coralfarmin]

actualy he has xenia spreading on the eggcrate so it must be fairly stable

nothin like my xenia here www.tropicalmarineimports.com/xenia.html

but spreading none the less

 

[coralfarmin]

sorry I cant collect all my thoughts at once but bob your display does look like crap that way you should divide mabey 18" from one end instead or make a fuge above it on a sturdy shelf and add some blue light to the display cause that tank wont impress no one on the boards

also its only $1 for some pickle lime I am sure you can spring that

 

[Anonymous]

Ok Bob seems to keep hijacking threads IMO...Im not a newbie well not 100% new..Ive been doing this longer than Bob with the reefs lets put it that way and I have 16yrs with FW -4 in the military I couldnt have one...nonetheless, Im not buying into his methods and all I did was ask a simple question on wc's..My question has since been answer, but one final thought...If you think macros cure water problems, try throwing a bunch in your toilet and dont flush...My point is that wc's help maintain water quality and unless your tank is nothing but plants/macros(still gonna some form of waste that will pollute your system in time regardless of top off) it wont stay clean...

 

[coralfarmin]

lord nikon it has been provin to myself by myself that under proper care water changes are not as signifigant as to some, as well Dr mac and others have run awsome systems with no changes

not trying to contradic you just making a valid point

 

[Anonymous]

Not contradicting me..Its not fair for a new person to this hobby to be told go macros and top off with tap water, no wc's etc...Thats what got me into my original mess...Bad info...took my info from someone who had been doing this awhile...Well it didnt work for me...I think cutting corners is gonna put you in a bad predicament..I also have seen the difference on regular wcs to long periods without them can do to a tank (personal experience)...In a larger set up, you may not have to do it as frequent but i think in my case, a smaller setup, its a good thing...

 

[coralfarmin]

are you saying I'll be in a bad perdicament?I have been keeping coral since I was 12 I am 29 ...or were you saying bob will or other laymen, I have kept in awesome health almost everything you could think of, I CAN put up or shut up

I would not give no WC's as advice to a newbie, but ya it is doable IMO

 

[Unarce]

Well, I don't know about the WC's, but Dr Mac heavily skims his tanks and vats. The point is that Bob, advises against practically every important aspect of reefkeeping except light and macro. No WC, no dosing, no filtration, he's even gone as far as to say that plant life provides all the water circulation you need.

 

[coralfarmin]

I have a huge 48" ASM G6 (3 sedra 900 gph pumps) as well on my system..I dont keep up with bobs tactics I mainly was replying in general to LN's original post at first

 

[Anonymous]

So you wouldnt advise a New person to do wcs...Hmmm interesting...I also believe in doing it right the first time is the right approach..Im a born again reefer I guess..Having troubles early on, made me decide to spend money and boy was it worth it...and reefnutz hit the nail on the head with bob...Bob's only approach seems to be macros, macros, macros...Im starting to think the cure to AIDS and cancer is in macros :roll:
No i wasnt saying youd be in a bad perdicament, a new person...I dont consider a few people doing ok or good with that approach a success...It could be luck..then again, I doubt Dr. Mac isnt keeping a close eye on his tanks either....and you might not have to do many wcs if you skim heavy too..I also dont know if you are referring to Dr Mac from Dr Mac and sons coral outfit...a tank with only corals in it isnt an extremely heavy bioload, not in his size tanks atleast...Im sure he isnt using tap water as top off either and dosing...He is doing a business and trying to put out a good product...

There are one or more of three photo problems with Bobs pics

1)camera
2)lights
3)tank conditions

id like to see either 1 or 2 or both changed to see if 3 is the case