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saltank

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How much Kalk per gallon of water do you experts out there use? And do you mix it with vinegar, if so, what is your vinegar to kalk ratio

I am looking for what you guys have successfullly used, not some published standards....I have had different results using as little as 1/4 teaspoon per gallon up to 1/2 or a bit more per gallon

I think over time I've used too much for my 46gal-just based on appearances of my corals.

I am trying to decide if I should start mixing very weak batches due to the extra evaporation in the winter months (need to topoff quite a bit more now than in the summer months)

thanks in advances for the responses
 

pwj1286

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dude, that site is sweet. That's how I learned Kalk. Though I am not dosing vineger anymore. Very interesting artical.
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Anonymous

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Does adding too much vinegar have any adverse effects other than lowering pH? I would use enough vinegar just to make the kalk mix up crystal clear.
 
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Anonymous

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sfsuphysics":2aumn35b said:
Does adding too much vinegar have any adverse effects other than lowering pH?

If you added way too much vinegar you could end up with a bacterial bloom.
 

pwj1286

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The use of vineger is too touchy for most people.

I stop using it because I do not think I saw a real benefit for my tank. I will try it again in the future though.
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Anonymous

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It's most beneficial when evap rates are low and you just need a little more Calcium & ALK boost.

It's also VERY useful to clean out the lines used to drip the limewater.
 
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Anonymous

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Air tight = indefinately

Open container - a week or so depending on how much CO2 can get into the mix. Usually a Calcium carbonate film will form and if left unbroken the mix can last quite a bit longer.
 

saltank

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That is a cool article Len. After reading it I realize I may be mixing the stuff incorrectly


Do you really use 1/2 teaspoon per quart (that is equivalent to 2 tsp per gallon? For 4 gallons of topff I would use 8 tsp? (that sounds like way too much); and how do ml equate to ounces?

So I typically make up 3 or 4 gallons of topoff water in a 5gal container. What I have been doing is mixing the Kalk and vinegar in a large plastic tumbler and then pouring it into the 3 or 4 gallons of RO water - is this a problem? This will last me about 1 week with a steady drip into the tank

Also, do you actually stir the mixture, do you add the vinegar to the Kalk powder or vice versa. Occassionally I have notice the topoff water clouding my tank, I now wonder if it was due to a poor mixture? When I stopped the Kalk and used just RO for topoff the water was crystal clear again

Thanks for the input - one thing I definitely noticed is using Kalk in my topoff water the parameters stay very consistent which is tough to maintain with only a 46gal tank.
 
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Anonymous

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I'm not Len but I have a lifetime of using limewater.

1 - You don't have to use a saturated limewater solution. 2tsp/gallon will give you a saturated solution but you can use 1tsp or 1/2tsp if you have a low Calcium and carbonate requirement (few corals).

2 - When you say your topoff wate ris clouding your tank. Even when you're dripping it in over 12 hours or so? How long does it stay clouded and does it affect the entire tank? If it's just at the point where the lime drips in and it's temporary then it could just be Magnesium reacting with the Carbonate and it's harmless. If it sticks around then you may have a CO2 deficiency and the limewater is forming Calcium carbonate (bad). More vinegar can solve that.

3 - I don't stir, not at all. Most people do though. Either way just make sure that anything settling to the bottom doesn't get into your tank.

4 - I don't think it matters if you mix the vinegar & lime first or just mix both into the RO water.
 

ChrisRD

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Some quotes from Randy that may be of interest. Here he is talking about why adding vinegar to kalkwasser may interfere with its benefit of precipitating phosphates...

Randy Holmes-Farley":2tn6qwkz said:
Ryan:

If you only want to precipitate phosphate, then I strongly believe that you should ad no vinegar whatsoever. You want the pH in the limewater as high as possible.

Exactly what is happening when and if limewater reduces phosphate is unclear. One theory is that the high pH converts the phosphate to the PO4--- form when the limewater initially hits the tank. In that high pH, high calcium solution, calcium phosphate may precipitate. FWIW, all of the other reasonable theories about how limewater might reduce phosphate also involve high pH.

This one is in response to the information presented by Breefcase:

Randy Holmes-Farley":2tn6qwkz said:
I'm not sure which thread you pulled that from, He and I have debated some issues around limewater in some threads here at reefs.org. I don't recall debating adding the lime directly to the vinegar, nor do I remember seeing anyone do it until recently, but I may have simply overlooked that issue.

I don't expect that he shows any equation that demonstrates that putting lime directly into vinegar is better than doing so in the presence of more water, so I cannot show you an equation that is wrong.

This assertion, however, is clearly wrong if it is being used to justify not adding the water first:


First, it will get more Calcium ions (Ca++) into the solution because you are dissolving the Ca(OH)2 in an acid instead of water, and forming Calcium Acetate, which exists as a dissociated equilibrium of free Calcium ions and Acetate ions.

In fact, more calcium hydroxide will dissolve in 1 L of water to which has been added a certain amount of vinegar than will dissolve in that vinegar alone (unless it completely dissolves in both, in which case they are the same).


Second, the Acetic Acid (Vinegar) provides an equivalent of all the CO2 you need to avoid precipitating the newly-added Calcium ions as useless white Calcium Carbonate powder.


I think this statement is a little confusing. As written, it must mean the CO2 generated when the vinegar is metabolized in the tank. If so, then
he is adding way more than enough (twice as much as necessary), but however much it is, it isn't reduced by mixing them in water first.

I think what he meant was that it adds enough acid to prevent precipitation of calcium carbonate if CO2 entered the system from the air. Personally, I think that concern is overblown, but regardless, if you mix in enough vinegar to lower the pH to the point where CaCO3 cannot form in the vinegar/lime mixture when exposed to air, as he does, then he has effectively neutralized the mixture, and has calcium acetate remaining.

That is where the impurity problem comes in. Lime can contain all kinds of stuff that you don't want enetering your tank, and the high pH of normal limewtaer causes it's precipitation as, say, copper oxide/hydroxide. Just look at the colored gunk that is often left behind. These concerns apply to heavy metals, phosphate, arsenic, etc.
The amount of vinegar that Craig recommends is less, and the pH does not drop as much, keeping much of this stuff precipitated (but not quite as efficiently as limewater without vinegar). Full neutralization won't do much if any of this precipitation.

Third, after all the cool Calcium ion chemistry is over, the leftover Acetate ions from the broken-down Vinegar leaves you with free organic Carbon in the water that feeds the bacteria in your tank so that it converts more poisonous Nitrates to NO2 gas (a very good thing).

I don't think that much NO2 gas is made relative to N2, but that aside, the effect is exactly the same whether the mixing is done in water or directly in the vinegar. I also believe that this is an undemonstrated theory. Ive not seen anyone add acetate to a reef tank and observe a sudden decrease in nitrate (by this, or by the more liklely mechanism of simple increased bacterial growth taking up nitrate). It theoretically can happen, but isn't shown that I know of.

HTH
 
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Anonymous

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Hmmm seems if you want more calcium use vinegar, if you want more phosphate removal use no vinegar... although there's no evidence on how much phosphate if any is removed.
 
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Anonymous

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If Randy says not to add the Kalk to the Vinegar first then I'd go with that until proven otherwise.
 
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Anonymous

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see that doesnt seem to be the message, unless I'm reading it wrong (from what I recall of his style, the bold is his words), and he says you'll get more calcium by adding kalk to an acid (vinegar) instead of water
 

ChrisRD

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No, the bold is not Randy's words. The bold is Breefcase's words. Randy bolded the portions of text he was addressing rather than using the quote function. Hope that clarifies...
 
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Anonymous

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ahhhhhh ok, yeah that does clarify things a bit. Still don't know if randy is a no-vinegar guy or not. It seems some vinegar is ok, but it seems the argument is adding kalk to vinegar, or adding kalk to water + vinegar.
 

Kevin1000

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sfsuphysics":acvxaevg said:
ahhhhhh ok, yeah that does clarify things a bit. Still don't know if randy is a no-vinegar guy or not. It seems some vinegar is ok, but it seems the argument is adding kalk to vinegar, or adding kalk to water + vinegar.

Like many arguments in this hobby .. the word "material" is often left out .. I suspect in the context of how this applies to our tanks it not "material".

I suspect the more relevant issue when dealing with vinegar is whether it interferes with other common goals of Kalkwasser users ... if you are fighting low PH issues (tight house syndrome) or are using Kalkwasser to fight phosphates then vinegar/Kalkwasser is not a great choice.

BTW my reading of Randy's comments on RC chemistry forum would indicate that he is a supporter of vinegar/kalk .. assuming you don't have PH problems and are trying to enhance/saturate your Kalkwasser.

Hope this helps.
 

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