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FragMaster

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I am by no means calling you personaly a liar here but 14 years without a water change in a reef tank is absolute BS. You would have to have the most expensive filtration system known to man to be able to re-purify the water backdown to zero across the board, Or periodicly run your salt water through your ro unit wich I assume would ruin it completely.
Dosing elements are made to prolong water changes not take th eplace of them all together.
I realy hope no one here tries that.
If thats what your doing with your clam tank then I think you just answered your own question, regaurdless of what the parameters say ( as in trates and amonia).
Like I said I am not calling you personaly a liar, but I think the dude that told you that malarky is full O'crap.
Duane
 

mpedersen

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Fragmaster et. al., Please forgive the extended ramblings below...they're "out loud thought" and posted simply to foster discussion, consideration, and perhaps some different thinking.

By no means am I trying a no-water-change in 14 years kinda setup with either of our reefs...that's another challenge for another tank, and was simply used as an "exteme" example to illustrate my point.

In theory, a 0 water change tank IS possible. It's not like salt or H20 go bad....

Think of it this way. We mix up saltwater with a chemically formulated salt mix. In theory, it's good to go, and if it was sealed and sterile, it would never change.

But instead, we put it in a glass box, put living creatures of all sorts in it. These creatures use up resources and create waste, but if we never input anything past this point, our "glass box" would rather quickly "crash".

We're not out of the woods yet...we have to feed them..introducing a mixture of organic and inorganic compounds that provide nurishment. As a result, waste is created. If this waste builds up, it can poison the inhabitants of our aquarium and alter the chemistry of the initial saltwater mix making it unsuitable for the creatures existing in it.

So we add filtration, to help maintain better conditions for our living creatures. We promote gas exchange with the air around us to help maintain proper levels of gases IN the water. Our filtration helps remove toxins and break down waste into more benign forms, but even so, if this "less toxic" waste ultimately builds up and needs to be dealt with.

ONLY AT THIS POINT did we as aquarists discover the power of a "water change", which dilutes the waste and replaces a portion of our "less suitable" water with "better" water. Or maybe, and more historically accurate, ONLY at this point did we LESSEN our dependency on the "water change" to maintain a healthy watery environment. Afterall, I assume most all of us had a goldfish bowl at some point in our youths. Water changes is all it took...but you had to do them all the freakin' time.

We've come a long way since that POINT. Through hobbyist trial and error as well as scientific examination, we know a LOT more about what happens in our "glass boxes".

So back to that initial "freshly mixed up saltwater". 70 or so various components plus "trace elements", besides H20, which pretty much match everything we know about the natural water chemistry of the ocean. We lose H20 by evaporation but return it with top offs. We input "energy" as food & light. Waste builds up but can be UTILIZED by other organisms as a nutrition for growth. These organisms may use other elements from the water as building blocks and we replace them, just like evaporated H20.

In theory, if we balance the closed system properly, why would we need water changes? BALANCE is the key word.

Let's briefly examine all the arguments "for" why we aquarists NEED and RELY UPON water changes.

1. Dilute Waste (nitrogen) - easily handled by denitrifying bacteria, marine algaes, corals, "nutient export" (i.e. harvest and disposal of macro algaes)

2. Replacing elements as they are "used up" - well, could be handled by simply adding them back IN.

#3? In reality, what other reasons DO people do water changes? There really is no #3 I can think of.

We either perform water changes as a profolactic measure to handle #1 and #2 and keep them in check, OR we do them to QUICKLY RESTORE "ideal" parameters in the aquarium when things go awry via the dilution effect. If we're confident that waste and essential elements are OK, and growth, behavior and health are OK, WHY DO A WATER CHANGE?

We can all agree that the creatures we keep in our homes DO NOT like change....they come from an extremely stable environment (the ocean). When's the last time you did a water change of "reasonable size" (i.e. 10-25% as so many of us do) and the organisms in the tank DID NOT "react" with closed polyps etc... ;)

To bring this off-topic diatribe full circle, I have no doubts that the aquarium I cited earlier as having gone 14 years without a water change IS a legimate claim...I have no reason not to believe it. GRANTED, the tank itself has gone through a variety of changes over the years; currently mostly hardier organisms are living in there. Sure, maybe it's not chalk full of SPS or clams or whatever, but it's a healthy reef that has reached a balance point with whatever feeding and dosing is done. It's also a larger (hence more stable) tank...nothing like a 25 gallon cube!

Let's think about it in the simplest terms...why change WATER when there's nothing wrong with the water, ONLY with what's dissolved IN the water? This isn't a "magic pill" type situation, but some common sense has to play a role. Organic waste can be handled through a variety of means other than water changes. "Nutrient/Trace Element/"Building Block"" type depleations can be handled with adding what's depleted, without having to remove and replace the perfectly good H20 in the process.

So when all testable levels are in order, I'm hesitant to do a water change...typically I have to start back dosing right away to bring things like Calcium back where I want them! WHY would I want to go through that when there's NOTHING wrong with the water in the tank based on all my tests and observations of behaviors and general health?!?

When things get out of order, i.e. the clam deaths, I did a fairly sizeable water change because things DID end up "out of whack". But once they're in line, or at least manageable without a water change, I'm not going to add on the stress of a water change.

Think of my chosen route (to avoid water changes) as "bed rest" for the clams. Additional, frequent (daily?) water changes on our clam tank would have been like sending a person with the flu to stand out in the cold for an hour each day, along with all the HEALTHY people who also live in the house.

I've personally ruled out most every explanation for this wipe-out except one. NOTHING in the tank has been affected negatively through this entire time EXCEPT for bivalves molluscs (clams), and even then, somehow 3 seem to still be OK. Accute environmental problems would have manifested themselves in a corresponding accute timeframe. General or ongoing environmental problems (i.e. slow bioaccumulated poisoning) would have progressed along a timeline corresponding to the length of exposure for each individual specimen...as it would take a set time to reach a fatal level. BOTH of these "environmental" situations by all accounts and experiences SHOULD have affected other life in the tank in ADDITION to the clams, and yet ALL OTHER LIFE (and a couple clams) are totally unafflicted and are HEALTHY, GROWING and whenever possible, REPRODUCING. There's only one situation that fits the profile of only afflicting a particular population within the overall population, attacking both new and old residents, killing in a short time frame (hours to a couple days), but only taking down one or two of the individuals in the population at a time. It all adds up to DISEASE. As we pretty much have NO good method for TREATING invertebrate diseases (heck, seems like we really don't even know much about what they are to begin with), it make sense that a "high density" population could crash so quickly, with me being powerless to do anything about it.

So, the iron dosing, well I may pick it up again in a week or two if the remaining clam sticks around...if he lives through a month of it I'll be able to narrow it down (in my mind) to disease as the 100% certain source of of our clam collapse. UV is likely being added to this tank as our only real profolactic for disease in inverts. I'd love to institute a quarantine as we all know that WORKS, but the truth is we just don't have the room.

FWIW,

Matt P.
 

mpedersen

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This was initially posted to my thread on www.nano-reef.com by Nuhtty - I'm looking for more information (specifically some reference on the correlation between Iron & Metabolism), but at the moment I have no reason to doubt the information posted other than I just haven't been able to read it for myself. This would make PERFECT sense; the symptoms of the disease match what I experienced, and this would tie together the loss of the clams with the addition of Iron dosing..i.e. the Iron itself did not kill the clams, but allowed the pathogen to explode and do it's "job" quite effectively. Barring any debunking, I think we've found the answer.

Clam Perkinsus Disease.

Perkinsus marinus (or similar protozoa) affect oysters, abalone and clams.

High iron levels cause these protozoa to run rampant, thereby destroying the animals.

Low iron levels, or nonexistant iron as you had before, cause the metabolism of the protozoa to remain slow thereby keeping the pathogen in a dormant type state = no harm to the clam.

Unfortunately there is nothing you can do at this point. I wouldnt add any more tridacna to the system.

Sorry to hear about your clams.

FWIW,

MP
 

FragMaster

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No amount of filtration other than an RODI unit will remove all the nasties.
You would have to have a denitrator, add amonia remover bi-weekly/weekly, use the worlds most reliable prtien skimmer, the largest fuge you have ever laid eyes on to control al other nasties, add iodine, potasium, and about around 50 other trace elements daily, weekly, and bi-weekly, plus daily testing to monitor it all.
The money it would cost a person to NOT perform water changes woud far out wiegh the cost of simple water changes, through the amount of extra equipment needed, addetives needed, and test kits needed.

Trace elements added could conceivably be kept stable for long periods with no water changes.
The nasties do more than polute the water column, they "soak" in the subtrate and the rockwork.
Thats what cuases OTS (Old Tank Syndrome).
Pockets of nitrate, nitrites, and amonia form and reach LEATHAL levels in various dead spots.
THe only way to rid them all is to perform water changes .
Find me one Proven scientific experiment where they havent changed the water in a reef aquarium for more than 1 year, then I will shut up about it and bow down.
 
A

Anonymous

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mwp":1jv1xi1t said:
Barring any debunking, I think we've found the answer.

That's interesting, good to have an answer.

Sorry you lost all those clams.
 

Kalkbreath

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Did you notice any brown stingy zooxanthella coming out of the clam prior to death?
Also, have you added any boron to the system like seachems salt or buffer?
What water source do you use for makw up and exchange water?
Thanks
 

mpedersen

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Fragmaster, I may just have to take on that challenge someday....not now, but someday ;) 1 year is entirely conceiveable.

Laura, thanks. From all the data we had to go on, the Perkinsus definitely fits the bill perfectly, there are still some "unanswered" questions but they're MINOR (i.e., chelating up all the iron in a tank will stop the Perkinsus, but the iron that was being dosed was already "chelated", but is purported as bio-available, so...hmm). I'm sticking with Nuhtty's diagnosis. We have 3 remaining clams, 2 Hippopus and one of the newer Croceas....they're gonna get to go by themselves for at least another month.

An interesting side note, with all the clams gone, nitrates skyrocketed ;) Water changes are a MUST now...Fragmaster you and I both deserve a bit of a chuckle.

Kalkbreath - no zooxanthelle "explusion" occured. I probably listed this earlier, but in a nutshell here's chemically what goes into the tank.

Salt - I was on Tropic Marin but for some reason NONE of my LFS's carry it anymore!!! I've been reduced to Instant Ocean for the moment but will likely be mail-ordering TM as a replacement.

Calcium Dosing - alternating Seachem's Reef Calcium & Seachem's Reef Complete.

Buffering/Alkalinity - Seachem's Reef Buffer and Reef Builder, depending on water test results.

Other - Seachem's Reef Plus, every 3-4 days, doubled if I do some fragging. Seachem's Reef Iodide as needed (based on testing). WAS dosing Kent's IRON, but in this particular tank, that DID, in a convoluted way, turn out to be the "cause" of our clam problems. It's been dropped.

Organics/Micro Feeding - Some Selcon makes it into the water with soaked/enriched foods. I have 3 different phytoplankton mixes at my disposal - PhytoFeast Life, Liquid Life's concentrated form, and Kent's Phytoplex (mostly used for rotifer culture). Rotifer cultures are harvested a few times a week and placed into my systems...it can't hurt and helps keep the Rotifers going.

Macro Food - the clam tank gets fed heavily (it's also the cardinalfish breeding tank) - Frozen Brines by Hikari and San Francisco Bay Brand, Mysis (Hikari), Cyclopeze, live brine, very occasionally "Tiggerpods" (cultured live copepods).

That's pretty much it! I test some things a couple times per week, other things only ocassionaly.

Matt
 

Kalkbreath

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Did you by chance increase the amount of Seachem buffer around the time of the clam deaths? This buffer has quite a lot of Boron, (unlike the Seachem alk. buffer }.
Boron has been shown to harm clam larval stages?
Have you been using the seachem marine buffer beforeyour clam problems?
 

mpedersen

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Yeah, It's definitely not the buffer...I used it 2 days ago... ;) We haven't lost any additional clams since my last reported clam death..I think almost a week now. Just the 2 hippopus and the crocea remaining and appearing normal. The only thing I've stopped doing was the Iron dosing, in fact that was the only thing I STARTED doing. I'm convinced that Nuhtty's diagnosis is on the money; the symptoms of Perkinsus match how our clams died, and with elevated levels of "bio available" iron, Perkinsus would see increased metabolism. It just fits so perfectly what happened in our tank that at this point, I don't see how we could point the finger at anything else.

FWIW,

MP
 

mpedersen

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Well, it really sucks to report that after going 6 days "incident" free I thought we had cleared the woods. I did a water change on the 3rd.

On the 6th our Gold Hippopus went downhill like a rock and died. Today, our last remaining Hippopus also bit it. Perkinsus looks all the more likely; I'm sure the water change introduced "some" Iron (Chicago tap just has to have some...). Our last remaining Crocea seems OK but the coloration has changed...gone is the purple base color, replaced by brown speckles??????

Oh well...a UV is on the way and I'll be trying the clams again!

MP
 

Ben1

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You use city tap water, yuck!

Sorry for your losses. I had pyramids at one point but have since eliminated them all. I almost lost a few clams to them but they all pulled through.
 

mpedersen

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Actually, Chicago tap is some of the best quality in the country. I'm not saying it's anywhere near "perfect" but for the most part, it gets the job done just fine. Folks in the area who are on WELL WATER - well, well, well, I guess they're asking for disaster ;)


MP
 

SnowManSnow

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I'm no clam expert, but I did notice somthing in several of the experiances you guys had. The clams died out from an "epicentre". One died.. then the next closest and so on. When a clam dies, does it release anything into the water as a "last means of defence"? Could the dying clams simply be poisoning the others close by and causing this wave effect?
\


B.
 

mpedersen

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well Hmm. As of last night, we lost the last clam, our last crocea. Guess I can dose all the iron I want now! ;)

SMS, In a tank as small as mine (24 g) I don't think I could confirm nor deny that suspicion...it's simply too small a water body to tell if we were seeing a "epicenter" effect as EVERYTHING was, relatively speaking, next to each other!

MP
 

loosbrew

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my condolences in regards to your losses.

I have to agree with you on the water change bit. !2 years with a LTA and Tomatoe clown, having shipped them across the country and being through every learning curve possible, theyre still here with me, healthier and more resilient than ever and I can almost count how many water changes ive done on one hand in twelve years. :)

eventually, it moves away from science, and becomes second nature on how to read you animal friends.

best of luck if you should attempt them again. I must say though, I am a bit of a minimalist...so many clams in a 24 gal?

not starting trouble just wondering where your thoughts are is all. :)

luis
 

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