5 Gallon Nano tank

[Anonymous]

As best as I can recall, these claims of super elevated calcium levels are new and weren't being made years ago.

There was also no evidence from when I tried the product that it's true, either. While I don't recall exactly what the calcium & alk levels were on that 6 gallon tank, I'm positive they didn't substantially vary from the base levels of the readings I took of the Catalina NSW before using it in the tank.

 

[FragMaster]

I am so shocked. 8O I fully expected this to be legitimate :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

"unbiast" = unbiased

"Unbiast" is a perfectly cromulent word.

Nice to see you around Greenighs

 

[trido]

So its Friday night. Ive been sippin the brandy.(Ya, I admit. I dont have a life.) Im opinionated. Forgive me. Ive kept up on this thread since day one in the nanos. First of all I'd like to say " Skylab, good for you for taking the time to test this front line new age carbon and taking all the time you have defending yourself in here. Good for the rest of you for questioning these new unsubstantiated claims". This is the kind of controvery that causes science to progress. Just a few points here.
1. I only hope this carbon is as good as claimed so I can utilize it in my aquarium.
2. Not to many people are going to want to use only a carbon box in their aquarium. Aquascaping and gravel is more attractive than a glass box.(Although this is just a test and the carbon, I assume will only be as an aid in a healthy ecosystem).
3. With only a carbon box the parameters will most likely be less forgiving and no one wants a tank that can't go another week with out a water change. Could you imagine how the wife would react. "Honey, we cant go to hawaii till I do a water change. I messed up on the schedule when we booked our flight three months ago." :lol:
4. If this product is so good then why dont I see it on the shelves at the LFS? I would think some large corporation would by this stuff and patent it if it was leading edge technowledgy. (Cant for the life of me remember how to spell and my 4.0 english major wife has gone to bed. I'm just a lowly carpenter). :lol:
5. I believe this whole thread started as skylab simply saying "Hey, I found this product. This is how good it is and this is how I'm going to test it." Is this where we are at today?

Just thought I'd throw in my two pennies

 

[Anonymous]

I could use some brandy right about now....

 

[FragMaster]

"5. I believe this whole thread started as skylab simply saying "Hey, I found this product. This is how good it is and this is how I'm going to test it." Is this where we are at today?"

Unfortunately not.
If it would have been a simple "I dont know what is going to happen exactly but I will keep you posted on my progress" type of thing
this would have never turned out this way.

Since this thread started he has metamorphosized himself from an average Joe testing somthing new out he found, to a spokes person for the product who works hand in hand with the maker, then to a wholesale business owner who knows all the in's and out's, and then back to an average Joe. ( all depending on what questions had been asked , and what type of proof was needed at the time).
Then the maker of the product comes on and offers even more vauge information on the subject, followed by even more seemingly rediculous claims, and whacked out idiology.

:roll:

 

[RichardS]

It's amazing how some things seem to come up again every so often. Against my better judgement I'm going to add to this thread.

Back in 1998 two things happened in quick succession. I had a run in with Snake at his booth at MACNA that year, and shortly afterwards Snake started posting to the [email protected] mailing list I ran along with Jimmy Chen.

The result of those postings was very similiar to what's gone on in this thread. With one exception. Snake offered to provide a sample of his product if someone would give it a try and report on the validity (or lack thereof) of his claims.

I volunteered. I ran a 6 gallon eclipse I had sitting around for a month I think it was using Snake's product. If memory serves I tested it with five green chromis.

Ammonia, nitrate and nitrite were not detectable throughout that time period, using Salifert kits (what I had at my disposal at the time, having a large number of them on hand from having done product testing on them shortly before for the now long-defunct Reef Reviews).

Can I tell you how the product works? Nope. Can I tell you if it's suitable for long term use? Nope. Do I think it has any legitimate use for a reef tank for any purpose other then possibly during the very first days of curing live rock? Nope. But does it do what it claims to? As far as I could tell... yeah.

FWIW.

Why do you think a filtration system that controls NH3, NO2, NO3, PO4, and removes organics from the water has no legitimate use in a reef tank other than to cure liverock?

Isn't that like saying protein skimmers, dsb's, phosphate removers/reactors have no place on a reef tank?

 

[Anonymous]

Why do you think a filtration system that controls NH3, NO2, NO3, PO4, and removes organics from the water has no legitimate use in a reef tank other than to cure liverock?

If you're going to respond to my posts in a thread, I have to ask you to read them all. I hate having to repeat myself. This once I will.

Fragmaster asked me, "Most importantly why did you not switch everything over to it if it were
that easy and worked so well? "

To which I responded:

What would have been the point? I had a well established tank with zero ammonia and nitrites, and very very low nitrates anyway, in a system that I -knew- how it worked (live rock, skimmer, DSB).

Besides, it should be obvious that if you short circuit the ammonia->nitrite-nitrate cycle, then the bacteria in any life rock/sand in the tank would by neccessity scale back due to having their source of inputs limited. I'd be concerned about that for two reasons. First, it would dramatically lessen the carrying capacity of the rock in the event of a short-term crisis. Second, god knows what effect that might have had on other life in the tank - I didn't, and why find out the hard way?

To further flesh that out: I can see the possibility that it might be useful during the earliest days (and ONLY the earliest days) of curing live rock, when massive die off is occuring beyond any reasonable expectation of the bacteria on the rock to handle. Yet if it was used beyond the initial first few days the bacterial population would never multiply to the point that it could carry the bioload of the tank.

Possibly the product might have some use in the event of catastrophe, such as a cascading set of tank conditions that results in a massive die-off. But I'd never use a product that operates under mystery principles as anything but a last resort in such a circumstance, and would recommend against it to others as well.

 

[FragMaster]

B U S T E D :lol:
Alter egos running a muck on here.

 

[RichardS]

cjdevito - Sorry, I was trying to read through the whole thread but it got a little ridiculous so I skipped to the end and just spotted your post. Thanks for the clarification though.

In this system, in theory, the RN bacteria when used with the TBPC are responsible for the ammonia->nitrite-nitrate cycle and reduce PO4 and organics in the process. So you are not exactly short circuiting it, rather just using different bacteria to deal with it in a different fashion.

Like you, in my testing of the system thus far, it seems to do the things that snake claims. So IMO it is worthy of discussion and further testing.

 

[Anonymous]

Any pictures of a full blown reef system using this method?

 

[RichardS]

From me, no I haven't gotten to that point yet. I think it is better to test in an environment with less variables first. I will soon be setting up an sps system using the TBPC/RN & the ph rock. Trying to order the tank if I can get the distributor to call me back. In my view the TBPC/RN and ph rock are seperate products so I wanted to start off using the TBPC/RN seperate. Otherwise it would be like testing a kent product by using all of their products at once.

I've done some little tests at my store and now have my 1st test of a tank using only this method of filtration. You can see that here...
EDIT: Oops, put the wrong link...
http://www.maast.org/index.php?name=PNp ... 59471df4c7

 

[GSchiemer]

RichardS,

I'm all for the unbiased discussion of new methods and products, but it's awfully suspicious that you suddenly appear on Reef Central with an in-depth knowledge of this product. Do you have ANY connection to the makers of this product? If you do, that's fine, but it should be known so that your statements are considered in that light.

Greg

 

[RichardS]

Snake sent me the links to skylabs threads. I've been watching him try to talk about this many times on many forums. The threads always go like this one has. On some they just ban him although I know he he not directly affiliated with Hiatt. Just uses Hiatt products, like me.

I'm kinda tired of the way these threads keep going. Not much reasonable discussion IMO. So I finally decided to chime in.

If you look at the thread you'll see that I own an LFS in texas and not affiliated with Hiatt anymore than I am with Kent, Seachem, salifert etc. etc.

It strikes me as funny. I do business with seaworld for propagated corals. Those guys are just following along with interest what we are doing to see how it goes and if it would have any application for them. They don't proclaim "It's a scam" or start flaming.

 

[Anonymous]

Nevermind - just realized you're referring to Skylab as not affiliated with Hiatt, not Snake.

 

[FragMaster]

oops double!!

 

[FragMaster]

To me this is and will always be "hoop-la'".
I already saw your thread, saw your tank, saw your responses. Nice looking horses, nice looking tank. :wink:

Still no hard proof It sustains or replaces.

It's like using amo-lock, your treating the symptoms.
Nothing is actually building up to maintain, your adding it.
Once you use it your stuck with it, or you get a nice little tank crash while every thing balances back out. Which by every known fact and scientificly proven study in this hobby on the subject (of anaerobic and aerobic bacteria) it will unless you keep adding RN to it.
So whats the point other than to show your friends how many fish you can stuff into an aquarium?
If this has been out in the open since 1998 and realy does work like it states it would not only have been mentioned by Boreman and the likes, but it would be on the front page of advanced aquarists mag EVERY issue, and be a hot topic of discussion at every big convention and seminar inlvolving fish, and reef keeping. As well Seaworld would have already purchased it, along with evey public aquarium in the states by now right?
They dont proclaim its a scam or start flaming because they dont care if it works or not, they already have a proven system in place. ( and they probably already know the answer given they have marine biologists on staff)
This just seems to me to be a quick cure for holding tanks only, and half way curing rock ( as already mentioned).

Reasonable discussion will be followed by reasonable proof.
We still have none.




JMHO

 

[skylab1]

Andy , Andy, Andy.....
wholsalers in the U.S: Florida whosalers tend to focus on caribbean coral and fish only. "wholesalers" in the US that do not collect thier own stock are what we call "retail/wholesalers" Ie most of the big shops on the west coast.
These individuals dont contract out to any one. They simply place orders as needed. They sell "Retail" to individuals via walk in shopping, or online, and also offer wholesale pricing for vendors (other retailers).
when they wholesale it is for a bit more than they paid for it from thier wholesaler ( ofcourse) but it is not transhipped. I dont know of any one in the industry that will tranship a customer live fish or live coral with out ever seeing it. They only do that with live rock normaly guy.
SO guess what? The "retail/wholsalers" are realy just "retailers" in the long run of it. They pay true wholesale, and pay for shipping = retailer.

Who is Andy?

Here is the west coast, wholesale do not sell to individuals or open to the public. They sell only to LFS or pet shop at wholesale price, you need to have a business permit in the pet business or a retail store; some wholesaleer won't even sell to home based business. This is what we call "wholesale". Most of the large wholesaler have their own collection stations oversea so they claimed. These company are true wholesaler that don't sell retail.

Transshipper import the fish or coral from oversea wholesaler and ship to LFS national wide. LFS who wish to import their own stock can order through the transshipper on a weekly basis. LFS don't order the stock directly with oversea suppler because most of them don't meet the min. requirment of 15-20 boxes or more each week. Transshipper get their orders from different LFS and order all together. When the shipment arrives, the transshipper seprate each LFS's order and ship it on the connecting flight for out of states LFS. The transshipper never see the fish or corals before it arrives in the U.S. Dead or alive transshipper ship it all to the LFS. Its up to the LFS to claim DOA with the transshipper and LFS still have to cover the first 10% DOA and shipping is never refund.

Average shipping cost for air frieght is $1.00-$1.80 per lb from most retailers online to the consumer. $60 and up per 100lbs from a wholesaler. It all depends on how much wieght your wholesaler overseas ships with the air frieght co. he/she uses as to what sort of discount they can pass on to you. Box charges ( usualy the same from retailers to customers as well) usualy average $6-$12 per box depending on size of the box, and heat/cold packs needed. ALSO it depends on if your order is COD or not becase that carries an extra charge with the airline as well depending on the total cost of shipping with them. They have a minimum wieght and minimum sales number that must be fufilled by the retailer as well in most all cases.

what you talking about above is internet retail sales. My is wholesale or transship.

Then why act like your a big player and have been in the business for years wholesaling?

I never stated I do wholesale! My part time business currently is local retail only.

Also post some pics of "your" 75g tank you said you have running on the same "system". Pics of equipment, and the live stock.
detailed shots please.

It's 220g not 75g, I've already post the pic.
BTW, I got my camera back. I take some more pic later in the week.

 

[FragMaster]

LOL!!! I was answering an email to one of my friends at the same time in another window and his name is Andy!! OOPS!!!!



Ummm no thats what the going rates are for DELTA AIR WAYS.
Roughly $60 up to 100 pounds and $60 and up for over 100lbs.
FROM YOUR WHOLESALER's AIRPORT. That does not include thier minimum order standards, or what they charge for box fee. As I stated above it and you failed to quote along with it.


"what you talking about above is internet retail sales"

GENIUS! SHEAR GENIUS!!!

Maybe, just .....maybe thats why I stated "Average shipping cost for air frieght is $1.00-$1.80 per lb from most retailers online to the consumer"
DOUGH!!!


"wholesale do not sell to individuals or open to the public"

Thats why I stated wholesale/retailers as an example of people who do this and gave you a link. BTW the west coast is littered with them.



"Transshipper import the fish or coral from oversea wholesaler and ship to LFS national wide. LFS who wish to import their own stock can order through the transshipper on a weekly basis. LFS don't order the stock directly with oversea suppler because most of them don't meet the min. requirment of 15-20 boxes or more each week. Transshipper get their orders from different LFS and order all together. When the shipment arrives, the transshipper seprate each LFS's order and ship it on the connecting flight for out of states LFS. The transshipper never see the fish or corals before it arrives in the U.S. Dead or alive transshipper ship it all to the LFS. Its up to the LFS to claim DOA with the transshipper and LFS still have to cover the first 10% DOA and shipping is never refund. "


Thank you for repeating every thing I just said. Obviously once was just not enough. Let that be a lesson to you all!


"They sell only to LFS or pet shop at wholesale price, you need to have a business permit in the pet business or a retail store; some wholesaleer won't even sell to home based business"

No kidding? :roll:


"When the shipment arrives, the transshipper seprate each LFS's order and ship it on the connecting flight for out of states LFS. The transshipper never see the fish or corals before it arrives in the U.S. Dead or alive transshipper ship it all to the LFS. "


PROVE IT TO ME PLEASE. In order to do that they would have to be selling the fish,or coral for more than 50% more than thier competition Just to be able to recoupe from claims ( shipping to them, materials to the customer, and the cost of the fish and the replacement fish.). This isnt an insurance business man they dont play the odds with out seeing the product. Thats why most all of them only tranship live rock.
( REPUTABLE ONES ANYWAYS)


"I never stated I do wholesale! My part time business currently is local retail only."

You didnt have to. you hung your self there.

Yes please post some updated pics.
ESPECIALY of the lion fish. Please be sure the time stamp is on.

 

[skylab1]

Got my camera back

Day 15

temp:82
pH:8.2
ammo:0
NO2:0
NO3:0
CA:650
Alk:260

thin layer of white sand was added a few days ago.

The lion is still alive and now eating 100% forzen mysid shrimp! :wink:
Take a look the full belly of the lion.