5 Gallon Nano tank

[Anonymous]

Therefore, you have only opinions if it works or not. Until you test it, then you are not in a position to comment on it in a real fashion. Your comments are based on Old Science not New Science. Therefore, they are not applicable in this instance.

Fine I'll stop commenting. I don't see much purpose in reading anymore about this anyway, just a bunch of doubletalk and complaints about people looking for clarification. How aweful that must be.

 

[trido]

I'll start by saying.
Thank you skylab and bstreep for taking the time to post so much in here. After 17 pages and over 300 posts I fell like i am actally seeing the potential for this procuct. Of course, before I'm willing to shell out $300 or more dollars. I like to see for my own eyes that it works long term. Not a business advertisement.

As for snake, I feel this thread was going in the right direction until you came in and posted the last three times. . I am a business owner myself. I dont like to be talked down to because I dont know as much as someone else. I hope you dont conduct all of your business this way. Edit, edit, edit. I will say no more only because its not productive

 

[Omni2226]

I said I wouldnt post here anymore but I feel an urge to add something.
What follows are direct quotes from the makers of this "system" and my thoughts.
Number 1:
Just like ANY NEW or ESTABLISHED tank the biological cycle needs time to adjust and grow to the bioload added. DO NOT OVERLOAD IT!!! You can add another fish every 5-7 days until your tank is where you want it. You can add live rock and other marine animals by the same method, but add them GRADUALLY IN SMALL AMOUNTS. DON'T ADD A MASS AMOUNT OF NEW STUFF TO THE TANK ALL AT ONCE!

Here is the reason we stress this point! Someone added the Tri-Base Pelletized Carbon, put the Right Now Bacteria in and said "it didn't work". Upon further inquiry we found this person had put nothing but a large load of new live rock in the tank. BINGO! This person bought a lot of live rock that had bunches of dead stuff on it, but could not see it. This really polluted the tank!!! The NH3 was already over 6 when he put in the RN Bacteria and TBPC Carbon. In three days the tank dropped to zero. The nitrites are slightly rising and some of the Nitrates are going down. Still the customer said he can not see the difference. What he did was just like dropping a pound of dead fish into the tank and didn't remove it, which would screw up any tank. Well, even with the overload the RN is working, it's just that adding all that new live rock overtaxed the system and he is getting delayed results because the RN Bacteria is trying to "catch up".

My thoughrs: Doesnt sound like a "Set it up and fully stocked in a week system" to me.

Number two, a person asks about curing live rock:

If you use our products on live rock that is not cured, then the following WILL happen. Instead of the ammonia slowly climbing to a peak in two or 4 weeks, with Right Now, the Ammonia will climb to the highest point in 24 hours.

Now when you use the Tri Base Pelletized Carbon, this will give massive surface area for the bacteria to reside. STILL if the rock has lots of death in it, the bacteria must eat until it is all gone. What happens in this case, the Ammonia will shoot up to the top of the scale in 24 hours and remain there. (just think of dropping a pound of hamburger in the aquarium and waiting for the bacteria to consume it.) It will remain there for 4-10 (or more) days, and then suddenly drop like a rock over night.

The reason why, the Right Now! starts to rapidly break down the dead tissue in the live rock that is hidden from your eyes. As the tissue is broken down, it turns into nitrogen waste. This is the reason for the spike. The ammonia will go up, and then it will remain there until ALL the mass is comsumed and converted. Then one day, it will suddenly DROP like a rock. That means nothing is remaining in the rock and it is "cured".

My thoughts: We go out of our way to keep as much alive as possible inside and outside live rock while curing it by doing large water changes and running skimmers,not letting it stew in amonia. Last thing I want to do is wind up with a bunch of live rock that has no "life".

Number three:
A very important thing is, you MUST give the Right Now! LOTS of air (oxygen) If you have a return tube that is underwater, you must have it above the water's surface, shooting accross the surface relieves the CO2 debt and increases the O2 in the water.
My thoughts: What? Many people run open tops and/or full canopys. How are we going to deal with water splashing everywhere? Salt creep? Not to mention the noise and bubbles. It is mentioned several times, this "you have to have the water shooting across the top all the way across the tank to give it air" thing.

And to top it off I would need to use two four foot long 4 inch pvc pipes to make tubes to hold all the special carbon and a pump to push "no less than 6 and no more than 10" turns an hour through it and still bounce across the top of my tank.

There are many more questions and answers if anyone cares to go look.

I see no advantage to this system for me. Maybe it will rock Sea Worlds socks off and you can get rich off of them.

 

[Bill S]

And, I said I'd quit posting...

First of all, Snake isn't looking to get rich on this, as far as I know. This is a side business that he "dabbles" in, from what I've heard.

No one with any sense would recommend that you set up a tank and fully stock it right away. So, let's give that one a break.

Live rock. Just look at my tank. You will see I did pretty much the same thing. However, there's no way I could have kept ahead of the live rock with water changes. I can't MAKE that much water! In my case, the Ammonia spike was just before I added the carbon/bacteria. Wow. What a huge improvement. And, IF YOU WILL READ WHAT HE SAYS, his quick cycle does NOT include the traditional massive amounts of rock. I want tons of rock in my tank. That's why I have it. BTW, have you ever pulled live rock out of the shipping box? By the time you get it from the store, it's in a whole lot better shape...

As for air - it IS a big deal for this. I have huge volumes moving in my sump (2000gph) to the top of the tank. It runs from one end, across 6 feet of tank to a calfo at one end. The top surface is constantly being replaced. I also have 2 1200gph closed loops moving water towards the surface.

Finally. I've changed NO WATER since adding the carbon (and again, I'm only running 1/3 the recommended amount - I'm waiting for 2 more torpedos). The Ammonia is ZERO and the Nitrates after building up over 20ppm are DROPPING. WITHOUT A WATER CHANGE OR SKIMMER.

 

[FragMaster]

Also re-look the posts on reactivating carbon. NO ONE has suggested that it can be done other than by heating it to extreme temperature. You are blathering on about something no one said! The only note that could possibly be THOUGHT to be this is about backwashing the canisters to REMOVE DETRITUS. NOT to remove nitrates or any other chemical. AND, as usual, this conversation has turned BACK to one about the adsorbtion of carbon, rather than about it's use as a habitat. GET OVER THE CARBON BEING USED CHEMICALLY - IT' NOT.

Then whats this?

Baking in the oven only shrinks the dirt and that dirt can be then knocked out most of the time. You cannot by any means “reactivate” your carbon in the oven. If so, then I could save a bundle activating carbon at lower temps.

It normally takes 1160 - 1800 + F in a steam or N2 filled furnace to activate carbon. If you do have one of those furnaces in your home then you can do it. Usually 10,000 pounds are activated at a time in batch or more so if you have a continuous flow furnace.

BTW a kiln is not a conventional oven its a furnace used to fire ceramics to 1000 deg. F. PLUS.
I am not blathering about somthing no one has said.

Nothing else could possibly come out of this thread that is worth while, or constructive in any way. The only thing thats left to follow are insults, acusations, sarcasm, and finger pointing.

I am done here and I sincerely hope this thread is locked to prevent further ramblings about nonsense conducted by masters of double talk, and citing dual meanings for the same terms.
All this is doing is confusing new readers, and new hobbiests who may be reading this.
Have a good one.

 

[Bill S]

FragMaster - I'm sorry - I STILL don't see where it says ANYTHING about reactivating carbon OTHER THAN WITH EXTREME HEAT. It even says a conventional oven can't be used.

In any case: Activation/reactivation of carbon is not central to this discussion. The activation properties of carbon aren't what is used, just the surface area. The carbon DOES have to be backflushed once a month or so - TO REMOVE DETRITUS. NOT to reactivate.

 

[Len]

Now I know why Snake gets so frustrated. You folks just post willy-nilly and haven't read WELL what was posted before.

I also hope you can understand why people like me are extremely frustrated. Nearly all my pertinent questions have been ignored; Instead supporters of Hiatt's products choose to engage in side discussions (like P in carbon), regurgitation of Hiatt's marketing jargons, doubletalk, and sarcasm/condescension.

And I'm still waiting for pictures.

No one with any sense would recommend that you set up a tank and fully stock it right away. So, let's give that one a break.

Snake/Hiatt does. skylab did. In your own words, you "haven't read WELL what was posted before.

 

[Anonymous]

No one with any sense would recommend that you set up a tank and fully stock it right away. So, let's give that one a break.

Snake/Hiatt does. skylab did. In your own words, you "haven't read WELL what was posted before.

Gotta go with Len here. It's certainly what I remember hearing back in '98, and I believe even the instructions I received with my sample said the same thing. Think Snake's advertising hand outs at Macna X did, too.

 

[skylab1]

I also hope you can understand why people like me are extremely frustrated. Nearly all my pertinent questions have been ignored; Instead supporters of Hiatt's products choose to engage in side discussions (like P in carbon), regurgitation of Hiatt's marketing jargons, doubletalk, and sarcasm/condescension.

I think this product is really going to take off amount people just entering the hobby. New comers are much more easy to talk to then people who are in this hobby for a while and think they know everything with all due respect of course.

Everyone keep asking for the "data", a "data" is nothing but number on a piece of paper, it doesn't do any good for anyone if you can't duplicate it. The only way to do that is by doing the experiement and see if you can get the same results as the mfg claims. This is how science validate result by conducting the same experiement following the same protocol. The data you are seeking guess what? You will never get it, so get over it! I get to know snake very well, he won't even tell me so I stop asking.

I am pickup one new customer a week, that's not a lot but for a part timer like me that's pretty good. A woman called me today, she just got a 80 gallon salt 2 weeks ago from some LFS. She had LR in the tank with 6 damsels, she call me and ask me to service the tank because the tank start to stink! The LFS she got the tank from never told her she have to wait until the LR are fully cured before stocking, instead they told her after 7 days she can have fish! This woman know nothing about aquarium, doesn't even know what a skimmer is.

This is what's happending locally, bad LFS giving bad advice to new comers. I am going over tonight to look at the tank, then I am going to show her how to fix the problem with the Haitt product. You may not like it, but as long as she follow my direction she will have a beautiful healthy looking tank in no time. I don't make a lot by selling the Haitt produtct, my mark up is very low. My goal is to build a long term relationship with each customer, guide them throuogh the process so they don't waste money and making the same mistake we all went through when we first start in this hobby. And I thank Snake for inventing a prouct that make this all possible.

 

[skylab1]

Day 30

Water test result:

Temp: 84
pH: 8.4
ammo: 0
NO2: 0
NO3 :0
CA: 650
Alk: 240
Density: 1.015

Nothing to report on this tank, other than the lion will be move to a 60 gallon tank over the weekend. He is now big enough to be with other fish.
I am hoping to get another small lion for this tank in the coming week, if not may be another clown.

 

[Len]

Or one could say new comers are more willing to accept easy solutions because they lack knowledge and experience. A lot of marketing in any industry is predicated on the proposition there exists a big population of people who simply don't know better.

I think a product that can fix bad situations has utility in the market. RN bacteria could possibly be this product. But the unsubstantiated marketing jargon and plethora of bad advice that accompanies Hiatt's methodology leaves much to be desired.

If you want us to believe in your product, the burden of proof rests on you. Don't ask us to prove it for ourselves.

A few photos would be nice.

 

[Bill S]

Len,

You're right. My mistake. Sort of 8) . I said "no one in their right mind"... I certainly wouldn't recommend, nor am I going to do it! Nice and slow... But, as I said, I'm a skeptic.

Pretty impressed so far, nitrates keep dropping. I'll see if I can post some pix at 2 weeks tomorrow.

 

[Len]

skylab,

What happened to the inverts? Also, the Pajama Cardinal disappeared on page 9 and I can't seem to find info on what happened to it.

 

[Len]

Bill, if you don't mind me asking, what convinced you to try this product?

 

[FragMaster]

The cardinal is directly in front of the treasure chest in the last pic.

Or one could say new comers are more willing to accept easy solutions because they lack knowledge and experience. A lot of marketing in any industry is predicated on the proposition there exists a big population of people who simply don't know better.

*monks step in to the forum and sing "Ahhaaa.....Haaaa..AAAaa...AAAa aaaa meeeeennnnnnnnN!" *

:lol:
(thats not a slam towards anyone in this thread, but a slam toward advertising methods some companies use and count on)

 

[skylab1]

skylab,

What happened to the inverts? Also, the Pajama Cardinal disappeared on page 9 and I can't seem to find info on what happened to it.

Fragmaster answered the cardinal question, sometime it stay inside the chest. The invert was sold a week ago, one of my old customer was bugging me for 3 days for the piece so I sold it to him to get him off my back.

 

[skylab1]

But the unsubstantiated marketing jargon and plethora of bad advice that accompanies Hiatt's methodology leaves much to be desired.

What bad advice?

If you want us to believe in your product, the burden of proof rests on you. Don't ask us to prove it for ourselves.

I don't have to have you believe this work or not, what matter is the customers are happy with the end result. Sooner or later you are going to encounter people using this system, you can then take a close look at in action.

It makes no difference what I said unless you saw it in person on a reqular basis, a few pictures won't do any good. Only when you are doing it like bstreep is doing or able to observe a working tank in person can it prove or disprove this work or not.

A few photos would be nice.

I'll post some when I get them in.

 

[skylab1]

Or one could say new comers are more willing to accept easy solutions because they lack knowledge and experience. A lot of marketing in any industry is predicated on the proposition there exists a big population of people who simply don't know better.

There is nothing wrong to accept easy solutions when the solution works.
Fish keeping doesn't have to be hard, it should be easy and enjoyable.
Too many bad LFS are giving bad advice to new comer, I found out which store sold the tank to the woman I visited last night. I know you hear of them if I told you which store, but I am not going to point finger on a open forum. Clue: a very big retail store near LAX. I was shocked when I found out who it is, I used buy fish from them many years ago, as matter of fact I still have the blue tang I purchased from them.

 

[Anonymous]

Sooner or later you are going to encounter people using this system, you can then take a close look at in action.

Unfortunately, I've been waiting since 1998 and it hasn't happened yet. Apart from the very small sample I was sent with which I performed the 5 gallon tank testing I mentioned, I've never found anyone else using the product. Let alone on a reef tank.

I've had a "wait-see" approach to Hiatt for 8 years now, and this lack of quantitive posts is making me think it's going to extend well past the decade mark at this rate.

How many years does the product need to be on the market before it stops being called "new science", anyway?

 

[Len]

But the unsubstantiated marketing jargon and plethora of bad advice that accompanies Hiatt's methodology leaves much to be desired.

What bad advice?

For starters, advising people to stock their aquariums hours after setting up the system.

I don't have to have you believe this work or not, what matter is the customers are happy with the end result. Sooner or later you are going to encounter people using this system, you can then take a close look at in action.

I'll continue to wait .... hopefully sooner, but realistically, I'm guessing later or never.

It makes no difference what I said unless you saw it in person on a reqular basis, a few pictures won't do any good. Only when you are doing it like bstreep is doing or able to observe a working tank in person can it prove or disprove this work or not.

A few photos will do plenty of good - a lot more good then any of the circular discussions we've been having. All the different Featured Aquariums in Advanced Aquarist, for example, demonstrate the possible efficacy of various methods. For whatever reason, no such evidence exists for HLD's method.

There is nothing wrong to accept easy solutions when the solution works.

There is nothing wrong with easy solutions. The question is if it works. No one has proven HLD's "solution" works. There's been countless other quick-fix, do-all products sold to unwitting hobbyists. Help us differeniate HLD's products from these snake oil.

Fish keeping doesn't have to be hard, it should be easy and enjoyable.
Too many bad LFS are giving bad advice to new comer, I found out which store sold the tank to the woman I visited last night. I know you hear of them if I told you which store, but I am not going to point finger on a open forum. Clue: a very big retail store near LAX. I was shocked when I found out who it is, I used buy fish from them many years ago, as matter of fact I still have the blue tang I purchased from them.

I agree there are many LFS (and people online) giving bad advice.