Question about ICH

[FB]

Ok, so my one clown has ich. The other dosen't. These are the only two fish in my tank. I first noticed the Ich about 4 days ago. I raised the temp to 81, added garlic to the food. The ich is starting to dissappear.

So from what I have read they (ICH) are now going to sit in my sand for a couple of weeks and multiply like crazy and then they are going to attack the fish like crazy again.

Now to my question.

How can I protect my fish from getting ich back (and continueing the cycle). Is there anyway to ensure that they can't find a host. I was thinking about putting the fish in a quarantine tank for a month or so. I would have to buy all the stuff to do it. This would be more expensive than the fish. I know, I know the poor fish why subject them if you don't have to. So are there any other ways to ensure the ICH dies without finding a host. Can I assume that because they were strong enough to fight it that they would be strong enought to reject it next time around. Of course assuming all remains equal which never happens. Ok i'm rambling now.

Thanks for your help

FB

 

[Anonymous]

If they stay in the main tank, there is no way to prevent the cycle from continuing.

Some people will say that ich is natural and given good conditions your fish will fight it and live with it long term without it taking over.

I don't agree with that.


My first two fish where clowns, like you. I also didn't want to set up a QT because it is a lot of trouble and then you have this extra tank to deal with that isn't very pretty because it's nothing but an empty tank with some PVC pipes and couple of sad looking fish. :lol:

My two clowns died.

Then I set up a QT.


I would recommend you set one up, transfer the clowns to it for at least a month. Keep them in hyposalinity (12-14ppt which is about 1.009-1.010sg) for the full time. The ich in the tank will die off without host fish, the ich in the QT will not be able to reinfect the clowns because it can't live in that low of a salinity, and when you return the fish, they will HOPEFULLY be ich free and entering an ich free tank.

You will need to buy a refractometer. Look at the RDO powerbuy...not sure if it is still discounted, but even at the regular price of $39, it is a piece of equipment you will not regret buying. Hydrometers are wishy washy. I have three that all read differently. Putting fish in hyposalinity with a hydrometer risks either killing them with too low a salinity, or not killing the ich with too high a salinity. to put it this way, SG below 1.008 will kill the fish. SG above 1.012 might not kill all the ich. Your margin of error is very small. You need the refractometer.


You will spend $30 on the QT and another $30-$40 on the refractometer. It will hurt to spend this on stuff that isn't helping your main tank directly. But these are long term investments. They will help you have a better tank in the long run. Well worth it.


Read about hyposalinity in advanced aquarist online. Terry B did a great article about keeping fish in hypo durring QT. Follow his directions. Don;t forget to buffer the water.

 

[brandonberry]

Do you have a Fish Only tank or a reef tank? If it is fish only, you can lower the salinity in your main tank to hyposaline conditions without having to take the fish out. I have read in various articles that this should be done slowly (over a couple of days) to prevent all of your nitrifying bacteria from being shocked.

 

[FB]

I don't have any coral yet but from what I understand the snails, crabs, and shrimp can't handle the lower salinity. Correct?

Thanks

FB

 

[Nautilus1]

Give the clown fish freshwater dips for as long as he can handle it. Use FW that has same pH and temp as main tank. Watch his breathing when in the Fw. Most clowns can swim in FW for 2 minutes with out ill effects. Feed him garlic soaked foods. Unlike Fw fish, MArine fish will drink the water in the tank. If you dont want to set up a QT tank use an airstone and some type of container with water from the tank and copper. Allow him to swim in SW container with copper for about 2-4 hours a day. He will ingest the copper. This has worked for me.

The ich will always be living in your tank. This is natural. The fish will probably always be carrying Ich. The fish's immunity will prevent ich from hurting them.

 

[Anonymous]

The hermits, snails, and other critters living in your sand and rock will die in hypo or with any medications (ones that work anyway).


Nautilus, Ich doesn't necessarily have to be part of a system. Since this tank and these two fish are just starting out, there is an opportunity to cure the fish completely and allow the ich in the tank to die off.

By the method you outlined (repeated freshwater dipping and copper treatment of the fish alone, while doing nothing to the tank, the ich is bound to continue reinfecting the fish.

All the stress of constant fresh water dips and little swims in copper water will not be conducive to maintaining a strong immune system in the fish. The dips will get rid of the ich on his skin, but then he goes back in the tank with fresh micro-wounds from the dead ich bursting out of his skin and gills and a weakened system from all the stress of being captured, dipped, coppered, and returned every other day.

This is why quarantine tanks are so highly recommended. You don't stress out the fish with a bunch of moving around and dipping. You control the full environment 24 hours a day for the fish. You can watch the fish closely and catch it more easily if it really does need a dip.


I'm not too big on freshwater dips. I've lost good fish to very short dips in temperature and pH matched water. The shock of a salinity change of that level can do a lot of damage to a fish that is already sick with parasites.

 

[Anonymous]

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/ ... /mini4.htm

Freshwater dips

Freshwater dips are largely ineffective in the treatment of Cryptocaryon irritans (Burgess, 1992). The host epidermis and thick layer of mucus form a barrier impervious to osmotic shock (Colorni, 1985). "Most of the trophonts whose hosts had undergone hyposalinity treatment, including freshwater, for at least 18 h, were still alive and occupied the same position in the host by the end of the experiment, following re-adaptation to sea water. They later dropped from the fish, encysted, and the tomonts produced tomites" (Colorni, 1985).

Note that the above quote says "most" and not all trophonts. Trophonts embed themselves completely into the epithelium under a layer of skin. This protects these trophonts from dips. As the trophonts grow in size they gradually displace the overlying epithelium. This is when they become visible as white spots or nodules. Exposed trophonts may be susceptible to freshwater dips, but trophonts that survive continue in their life cycle making this method only partially effective at best.

Freshwater dips can cause osmotic shock. Typically the fish are exposed to the air during the process of capture, handling and transfer, all of which are stressful to the fish. Freshwater dips cannot be depended on as the sole method of treatment for Cryptocaryon irritans and can be counterproductive because they are highly stressful to the fish. They should only be used in combination with other treatments that will successfully interrupt the parasite's life cycle.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/ ... /mini3.htm

Copper treatment

Copper therapy is the most well established means of combating Cryptocaryon irritans (Cardeilhac & Whitaker, 1988). However, copper is lethal to invertebrates, micro fauna and micro flora. Copper is removed from solution by calcium, magnesium and organics.

Copper-based medications (some contain other chemicals in combination with copper) should only be administered in an aquarium that does not contain invertebrates, rock, substrate or other calcareous material.

Copper suppresses immune function and is highly stressful to fish. Copper is also toxic to fish, but to a lesser degree than with invertebrates. Administering a dose that is too high may kill the fish being treated. If the copper level is not high enough then the treatment will be ineffective. This necessitates testing the copper level twice a day and making adjustments as needed.

Take care to read the recommended dosage in the instructions when using any copper-based medication. The correct dosage varies with the product. Test the copper level twice a day with a test kit that will accurately measure the particular type of copper that you are medicating with. The results of using an incorrect dosage with any copper-based medication can be catastrophic. Chelated forms of copper tend to require a higher dose and they are generally less effective than the non-chelated forms. A therapeutic copper level should be maintained continuously for a minimum of three weeks.

I have personally used Cupramine™, a Seachem product, several times with "copper sensitive species" such as lionfish, puffers, dwarf angels and mandarins with impressive results. In my experience, it has been more effective and better tolerated than other forms of copper. Seachem recommends .5ppm as the correct dosage for Cupramine. However, I have used this product successfully at .4ppm.

 

[Nautilus1]

FB, I agree that a QT tank would be the best way to treat fish. If one does not want to set up a Qt tank than the alternative is Fw dips and ingestion of the medicine. Dips are not good for all fish, but for clown fish, it worked for me and was ich free within 5 days.

Manny, I find it amusing when people say that Ich and other parasites are not part of the system. It does not have to be a part of a system but now it is in the OP's tank. Ich is living in everyones tank that has fish. If you stress the fish in your tank and they acquire ick , where did that ick come from? Tanks that have been Ick free for years can have an ick problem if fish are stressed with out adding anything new. Parasites are a part of every ecosystem.

 

[Anonymous]

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2004/mini4.htm

Freshwater dips

Freshwater dips are largely ineffective in the treatment of Cryptocaryon irritans (Burgess, 1992). The host epidermis and thick layer of mucus form a barrier impervious to osmotic shock (Colorni, 1985). "Most of the trophonts whose hosts had undergone hyposalinity treatment, including freshwater, for at least 18 h, were still alive and occupied the same position in the host by the end of the experiment, following re-adaptation to sea water. They later dropped from the fish, encysted, and the tomonts produced tomites" (Colorni, 1985).

Note that the above quote says "most" and not all trophonts. Trophonts embed themselves completely into the epithelium under a layer of skin. This protects these trophonts from dips. As the trophonts grow in size they gradually displace the overlying epithelium. This is when they become visible as white spots or nodules. Exposed trophonts may be susceptible to freshwater dips, but trophonts that survive continue in their life cycle making this method only partially effective at best.

Freshwater dips can cause osmotic shock. Typically the fish are exposed to the air during the process of capture, handling and transfer, all of which are stressful to the fish. Freshwater dips cannot be depended on as the sole method of treatment for Cryptocaryon irritans and can be counterproductive because they are highly stressful to the fish. They should only be used in combination with other treatments that will successfully interrupt the parasite's life cycle.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/ ... /mini3.htm

Copper treatment

Copper therapy is the most well established means of combating Cryptocaryon irritans (Cardeilhac & Whitaker, 1988). However, copper is lethal to invertebrates, micro fauna and micro flora. Copper is removed from solution by calcium, magnesium and organics.

Copper-based medications (some contain other chemicals in combination with copper) should only be administered in an aquarium that does not contain invertebrates, rock, substrate or other calcareous material.

Copper suppresses immune function and is highly stressful to fish. Copper is also toxic to fish, but to a lesser degree than with invertebrates. Administering a dose that is too high may kill the fish being treated. If the copper level is not high enough then the treatment will be ineffective. This necessitates testing the copper level twice a day and making adjustments as needed.

Take care to read the recommended dosage in the instructions when using any copper-based medication. The correct dosage varies with the product. Test the copper level twice a day with a test kit that will accurately measure the particular type of copper that you are medicating with. The results of using an incorrect dosage with any copper-based medication can be catastrophic. Chelated forms of copper tend to require a higher dose and they are generally less effective than the non-chelated forms. A therapeutic copper level should be maintained continuously for a minimum of three weeks.

I have personally used Cupramine™, a Seachem product, several times with "copper sensitive species" such as lionfish, puffers, dwarf angels and mandarins with impressive results. In my experience, it has been more effective and better tolerated than other forms of copper. Seachem recommends .5ppm as the correct dosage for Cupramine. However, I have used this product successfully at .4ppm.

Thanks Righty.

In the mood to source something on proper hypo? :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Manny,

Click the second link for hypo.

 

[Anonymous]

FB, I agree that a QT tank would be the best way to treat fish. If one does not want to set up a Qt tank than the alternative is Fw dips and ingestion of the medicine. Dips are not good for all fish, but for clown fish, it worked for me and was ich free within 5 days.

Manny, I find it amusing when people say that Ich and other parasites are not part of the system. It does not have to be a part of a system but now it is in the OP's tank. Ich is living in everyones tank that has fish. If you stress the fish in your tank and they acquire ick , where did that ick come from? Tanks that have been Ick free for years can have an ick problem if fish are stressed with out adding anything new. Parasites are a part of every ecosystem.

Not if you control the ecosystem. If you let a tank go fallow for long enough, ich can't survive in it. That is a fact. The point of contention is how long it has to be. Some people say it is a month, others say the ich can lay dormant for a few months. Either way, there comes a time when the ich just CAN'T be there any more.

Then you bring in a fish and the fish brings in the ich right? But not if you make sure the fish doesn't bring in the ich. With over a month of hypo, the ich on the fish has to develop and fall off. When it does, it either dies before it can multiply, or the free swimming phase dies as soon as it bursts free of the cyst. The ich can't reinfect the fish.

No ich in a tank + no ich on the fish = ich free ecosystem. It isn't magic. I wonder why some people think this isn't possible. It's like they think ich is something that forms spontaneously from water molecules and fish stress. :lol:

I have had very stressful situations happen to my fish and since I let the tank fallow for 2 months and followed strict hypo proceedures for all fish added, I have never seen a spot. They were without power, light, or circulation for days twice last year and once the year before. Never saw a single spot. I have also had a temp drop of almost 8 degrees one night. Some things actually died in the tank and there was a slight ammonia spike. No spots. And there never will be.

 

[Anonymous]

FB, I agree that a QT tank would be the best way to treat fish. If one does not want to set up a Qt tank than the alternative is Fw dips and ingestion of the medicine. Dips are not good for all fish, but for clown fish, it worked for me and was ich free within 5 days.

I don't think copper actually works by being ingested by the fish, I think it works directly on the parasite.

It is hard to be sure the dips were what made your clowns fight the ich off. It could have been many things.

Manny, I find it amusing when people say that Ich and other parasites are not part of the system. It does not have to be a part of a system but now it is in the OP's tank. Ich is living in everyones tank that has fish. If you stress the fish in your tank and they acquire ick , where did that ick come from? Tanks that have been Ick free for years can have an ick problem if fish are stressed with out adding anything new. Parasites are a part of every ecosystem.

It is widely regarded that a system can be made ich free. Remove the fish, let the tank lie fallow, treat the fish and don't add new animals without quarantining them and you will be good to go. Not everyone who stresses their fish have ich appear, and you don't hear about that you only hear about the people who get ich. I think it is generally true that most people have a low level of ich in their system.

 

[Anonymous]

FB, I agree that a QT tank would be the best way to treat fish. If one does not want to set up a Qt tank than the alternative is Fw dips and ingestion of the medicine. Dips are not good for all fish, but for clown fish, it worked for me and was ich free within 5 days.

I don't think copper actually works by being ingested by the fish, I think it works directly on the parasite.

It is hard to be sure the dips were what made your clowns fight the ich off. It could have been many things.

Manny, I find it amusing when people say that Ich and other parasites are not part of the system. It does not have to be a part of a system but now it is in the OP's tank. Ich is living in everyones tank that has fish. If you stress the fish in your tank and they acquire ick , where did that ick come from? Tanks that have been Ick free for years can have an ick problem if fish are stressed with out adding anything new. Parasites are a part of every ecosystem.

It is widely regarded that a system can be made ich free. Remove the fish, let the tank lie fallow, treat the fish and don't add new animals without quarantining them and you will be good to go. Not everyone who stresses their fish have ich appear, and you don't hear about that you only hear about the people who get ich. I think it is generally true that most people have a low level of ich in their system.

You are right about copper. From what I read, it works directly on the parasite through the skin. Since they usually survive on the skin, it really works like hypo in that it kills the free swimmers before they get a chance to infect a new fish.

Thanks for the last part. I think I have an ich free main tank. Some people might think I'm dreaming, but the research supports my methods and it has worked so far. I'd actually be surprized to get an ich outbreak in my tank.

My biggest worry is bringing it in on a rock or coral. One reason I set up a ten gallon with 96 watts of PC on it. Now I can QT even corals, snails, rocks, or anything that might bring something bad into my main tank. Paranoid, but good. :lol:

 

[Nautilus1]

FB, I agree that a QT tank would be the best way to treat fish. If one does not want to set up a Qt tank than the alternative is Fw dips and ingestion of the medicine. Dips are not good for all fish, but for clown fish, it worked for me and was ich free within 5 days.

Manny, I find it amusing when people say that Ich and other parasites are not part of the system. It does not have to be a part of a system but now it is in the OP's tank. Ich is living in everyones tank that has fish. If you stress the fish in your tank and they acquire ick , where did that ick come from? Tanks that have been Ick free for years can have an ick problem if fish are stressed with out adding anything new. Parasites are a part of every ecosystem.

Not if you control the ecosystem. If you let a tank go fallow for long enough, ich can't survive in it. That is a fact. The point of contention is how long it has to be. Some people say it is a month, others say the ich can lay dormant for a few months. Either way, there comes a time when the ich just CAN'T be there any more.

Then you bring in a fish and the fish brings in the ich right? But not if you make sure the fish doesn't bring in the ich. With over a month of hypo, the ich on the fish has to develop and fall off. When it does, it either dies before it can multiply, or the free swimming phase dies as soon as it bursts free of the cyst. The ich can't reinfect the fish.

No ich in a tank + no ich on the fish = ich free ecosystem. It isn't magic. I wonder why some people think this isn't possible. It's like they think ich is something that forms spontaneously from water molecules and fish stress. :lol:

I have had very stressful situations happen to my fish and since I let the tank fallow for 2 months and followed strict hypo proceedures for all fish added, I have never seen a spot. They were without power, light, or circulation for days twice last year and once the year before. Never saw a single spot. I have also had a temp drop of almost 8 degrees one night. Some things actually died in the tank and there was a slight ammonia spike. No spots. And there never will be.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/4/aaeditorial

Terry Siegel WROTE:
"I just interrupted writing this editorial to feed the fish. I’m happy to report that all of the fish are eating, but unhappy to report that Cryptocaryon irritans has already made its appearance. I’m sure that some of you along with me are wondering when the parasites came from. There hasn’t been a sign of it in my reef for at least 4 years. My guess, based a lot of anecdotal evidence is that once present in a closed system is always present to some degree, and kept in check by the fish’s immune system. A move like this stresses fish badly, and stress leads to an impaired immune system. At least for the present I don’t plan on doing anything other than make the environmental conditions as beneficial to the fish’s immune system as is possible."


Manny, Seems like he could use some of your help creating Ick free ecosystems.

Copper is found in the flesh of fish exposed to Copper. Why is it that copper can be effective thru the slime coat of the fish yet Fw can not?

I apologize to FB for his thread being robbed. It has become increasinly difficult to Post one's experience in this forum with out it causing threads to get side tracked

 

[Anonymous]

I apologize to FB for his thread being robbed. It has become increasinly difficult to Post one's experience in this forum with out it causing threads to get side tracked

I disagree with that assesment.

I think that FB's questions have been addressed, and future questions will also be addressed. I also think that the side tracking is where most of the 'meat' of information is, and, in a complicated topic like ich (when there is no easy answer), the meandering may be critically important.

 

[FB]

I think all the extra information was very useful.

Thank you all for your answers.

FB

 

[Anonymous]

FB, I agree that a QT tank would be the best way to treat fish. If one does not want to set up a Qt tank than the alternative is Fw dips and ingestion of the medicine. Dips are not good for all fish, but for clown fish, it worked for me and was ich free within 5 days.

Manny, I find it amusing when people say that Ich and other parasites are not part of the system. It does not have to be a part of a system but now it is in the OP's tank. Ich is living in everyones tank that has fish. If you stress the fish in your tank and they acquire ick , where did that ick come from? Tanks that have been Ick free for years can have an ick problem if fish are stressed with out adding anything new. Parasites are a part of every ecosystem.

Not if you control the ecosystem. If you let a tank go fallow for long enough, ich can't survive in it. That is a fact. The point of contention is how long it has to be. Some people say it is a month, others say the ich can lay dormant for a few months. Either way, there comes a time when the ich just CAN'T be there any more.

Then you bring in a fish and the fish brings in the ich right? But not if you make sure the fish doesn't bring in the ich. With over a month of hypo, the ich on the fish has to develop and fall off. When it does, it either dies before it can multiply, or the free swimming phase dies as soon as it bursts free of the cyst. The ich can't reinfect the fish.

No ich in a tank + no ich on the fish = ich free ecosystem. It isn't magic. I wonder why some people think this isn't possible. It's like they think ich is something that forms spontaneously from water molecules and fish stress. :lol:

I have had very stressful situations happen to my fish and since I let the tank fallow for 2 months and followed strict hypo proceedures for all fish added, I have never seen a spot. They were without power, light, or circulation for days twice last year and once the year before. Never saw a single spot. I have also had a temp drop of almost 8 degrees one night. Some things actually died in the tank and there was a slight ammonia spike. No spots. And there never will be.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/4/aaeditorial

Terry Siegel WROTE:
"I just interrupted writing this editorial to feed the fish. I’m happy to report that all of the fish are eating, but unhappy to report that Cryptocaryon irritans has already made its appearance. I’m sure that some of you along with me are wondering when the parasites came from. There hasn’t been a sign of it in my reef for at least 4 years. My guess, based a lot of anecdotal evidence is that once present in a closed system is always present to some degree, and kept in check by the fish’s immune system. A move like this stresses fish badly, and stress leads to an impaired immune system. At least for the present I don’t plan on doing anything other than make the environmental conditions as beneficial to the fish’s immune system as is possible."


Manny, Seems like he could use some of your help creating Ick free ecosystems.

Copper is found in the flesh of fish exposed to Copper. Why is it that copper can be effective thru the slime coat of the fish yet Fw can not?

I apologize to FB for his thread being robbed. It has become increasinly difficult to Post one's experience in this forum with out it causing threads to get side tracked

This is a good side track. The informative kind.


The quote you posted shows one thing. When his fish were stressed, ich appeared. But there are many people who's fish are stressed and ich does not appear. I moved my tank to another apartment in the same building...not a cross country move, but stressful too. No Ich. I had the cross brace on my 72 bowfront break and AGA replaced the tank. That switch of the entire reef took almost 6 hours...no spots from that stress.

I'm not saying I can prove my system doesn't have ich in it. You cannot prove that something is not there. I'm saying that it is possible to have an ich free system if proper proceedure is followed. Do you disagree with that?


As for Terry S., did he say he followed strict proceedures to rid the tank of ich and then never bring it in again? Those proceedures have to be pretty darn strict to have a guarantee of no ich. Note that even if you follow the proceedures, the addition of a simple snail could bring ich in on its shell from the tanks at the LFS. :wink: