T-5 lighting vs. MH
- Thread starter Oceans Ferevh
- Start date
FWIW, I have both, Deltec T5 units and 2 Aquamedic MH 250W on a really deep tank (Specs in thread in sig below). On personal preference, visually I prefer the T5s, even tho there are no shimmer lines. I have to run the MHs as the I have a clam and some SPS and anenomes. They heat my water up and are very intense. From my experience, there is no way that T5s can be compared to the output of the MHs. If output is your need, MHs would seem to be the answer. If you dont need the intensity and can live without the shimmer lines and want a more even lighting, T5s are perhaps what you need.
There are some good points here, but please allow me to add some more...
Here's one:
Its a 10'x30"x28" tank lit with nothing but 1080 watts of T5. It would take about 1600 watts of halide to get results like that.
Watt for watt, halides are more intense towards the top. This is due to the inverse square law, and how the dispersion fields apply. Halides may not be 100% true point sources of light, but mush more so than T5s (shimmer, and the shadows that halides cast across the bottom are proof of that). T5s arent pure linear bulbs, but its about as good as it gets. T5s penetrate farther, watt for watt, than halide. Halides do have a higher intensity towards the top of the tank however. This is not an advantage though always. See, halides can peak at levels over 2000, some as high as 3000+ in the 6" close to the bulb. The catch is that there are very few corals that can even tolerate intensities this high... concentrations like this are excessive. On top of that, these levels are only very close to the bulb, and with the average halide being mounted 6-12" above the water, these levels never even make it to the tank. The rounded/half moon dispersion field means that this intensity quickly spreads out and by the time it reaches the bottom... its less intense than if the light source were spread out across the surface. This is why so many love the lumenarcs... they trade off some of that peak near the bulb (3000 goes to 2000) for a better spread of the light, or better penetration (200 at the sand instead of 100).
T5s have a linear dispersion field. The light is very even, and carries deeper into the tank. T5s peak at about 1000-1500 within the first 3-6" from the bulbs. Being that the average T5 is only a few inches from the surface of the tank, this means that the whole top of the tank gets a nice spread of intensity... at light levels that are actually useful. Even my high light SPS like some plating millipora are coloring in better under my T5s than with halides. You can also place corals anywhere you want... not having to cater to the 'spotlight' effect of so many halides.
Something else to add is the output per watt of bluer bulbs, since with reefing, this is a huge deal since most of our corals do better under bluer light... 500nm or less, which is what they like in nature as well. Not that a 5000K T5 cant pity a 5000K halide watt per watt, but haldies often lose alot of their output when going bluer. A 20,000K often has 1/2 the output of a 10,000K. Its just harder to generate blue light in such a hot bulb. Phosphors however... they dont have this problem. Many blue+ bulbs (blue/20,000K in output, not actinic) have outputs that rival the daylight bulbs for T5s. These 450nm peak bulbs do more for coral growth, color, etc, and are the real suppliment to be had... not actinic so much, as you go deeper in the ocean. To me, supplimenting 10,000Ks with actinics never made sense, as many 10,000Ks already have loads of actinic, more than most 20,000Ks in fact (its just all the other spectrums that cover this up). It always made a 'daypurple' look that wasnt complete... the blue was missing. And as it turns out, its much easier to make blue... as most blue/450nm bulbs have 4x the output of an actinic.
What the heck am I getting at? Well, some of the nicest setups I know of use a 2:1 halide to T5 wattage ratio, with the halides being 10,000Ks and the T5s being a mix of blue+ and actinics. This results in one of the nicest, 'day-blue' looking light fields I have ever seen. The corals I have seen under these combos also color in stronger than just about anything else... very intense, and better than anything I have been able to get with just T5s or halides alone. The growth and color of the same coral under my lights, vs. a friends tank with this combo is very different. You know that intensity that halides can give a coral? That 'rishness' in color, esp at the tips? Ok, and you know that 'pastel' or 'neon' look that T5s can give? Ok... now put those two together. WOW.
T5s have one shortcoming... there needs to be more husbandry with bulb mix. Running a majority of blue lights can leave you with very little to no warmer spectrums. This can result in many warmer colored corals being 'washed out'. Check mothra's blog at frags.org and you will see. With a 20,000K T5.... it makes loads ot blue, and little else. With a 20,000K halide, you can still have a complete output, as it still has a good deal of red, yellow, green... etc. not so with T5s. So the solution has been to add a 3000-5000K bulb into the mix to fill in these warmer spectrums.
After almost a year of running T5s though, I am starting to like them better than my halides. And I have tried some of the best halides... and alot of them. My corals just seem to like the T5s better. And I was a die-hard 'halides forever' reefer for a long time. Me buying T5s was to reduce heat and meet a low-profile requirement for one tank... I thought it would be a good alternative to halides, but as it turns out, the T5 tank was much brighter than the halide lit tanks... SAME WATTAGE and a near color match on the spectrum (14,000K pheonix 250wattDE vs. 234 watts of T5.. 2xaquablue, 2xblue+, 2x actinic03), and these bulbs arent even the monsters that some can be. I have a good buddy with a 4x39watt setup with only 2x6500Ks and 2x blue+ bulbs, and his tank not only looks brighter than mine, the light is nice... like a 12,000K, and the corals love it.
The one reason I think alot of people dont 'buy in' to T5s is the technology in the states is seriously lacking. The ATI powermodul, for instance, has 2x the output of a Tek using the same wattage and bulbs. (the ATI reading 302 at 18" and the Tek 152 at 18"). The active cooling that the ATI has, and other, even well vented passive units lack, can cost up to 25% of the bulbs output, and much of its longevity. Reflectors are sorely lacking over here as well. There are very few options, and only one major fixture (the tek) made in the US. The Aquatinics is good (the solar flare is great!) but a small influence. The best reflectors are the Icecap SLR's, but those are for retrofit, not fixtures, unless you buy the solar-flare. There are many crap vendors that push their single reflector units that waste 60% of the T5s output... Current USA, Coralife, etc. in europe, you have ATI, Giesemann, Sfiligoi, Elos, Aquaconnect, Fauna-Marin, and the list goes on. All of these brands use individual reflectors, active cooling, and superior reflectors. This is most likely the reason why so many european reefers have made the switch to T5s, tossing their halides to the curb. The average US made unit has 1/2, if not worse, of the output of a European make... this no doubt has influenced the opinions of many. But if those same people were to see better made examples, they would drop their halides like dead weight. I knoiw my early experiences with T5s were observing them at friend's homes over their reefs, with inferior bulbs and reflectors, and not until I saw a nicer unit for myself was I convinced of their true potential.
Here's one:
Its a 10'x30"x28" tank lit with nothing but 1080 watts of T5. It would take about 1600 watts of halide to get results like that.
Watt for watt, halides are more intense towards the top. This is due to the inverse square law, and how the dispersion fields apply. Halides may not be 100% true point sources of light, but mush more so than T5s (shimmer, and the shadows that halides cast across the bottom are proof of that). T5s arent pure linear bulbs, but its about as good as it gets. T5s penetrate farther, watt for watt, than halide. Halides do have a higher intensity towards the top of the tank however. This is not an advantage though always. See, halides can peak at levels over 2000, some as high as 3000+ in the 6" close to the bulb. The catch is that there are very few corals that can even tolerate intensities this high... concentrations like this are excessive. On top of that, these levels are only very close to the bulb, and with the average halide being mounted 6-12" above the water, these levels never even make it to the tank. The rounded/half moon dispersion field means that this intensity quickly spreads out and by the time it reaches the bottom... its less intense than if the light source were spread out across the surface. This is why so many love the lumenarcs... they trade off some of that peak near the bulb (3000 goes to 2000) for a better spread of the light, or better penetration (200 at the sand instead of 100).
T5s have a linear dispersion field. The light is very even, and carries deeper into the tank. T5s peak at about 1000-1500 within the first 3-6" from the bulbs. Being that the average T5 is only a few inches from the surface of the tank, this means that the whole top of the tank gets a nice spread of intensity... at light levels that are actually useful. Even my high light SPS like some plating millipora are coloring in better under my T5s than with halides. You can also place corals anywhere you want... not having to cater to the 'spotlight' effect of so many halides.
Something else to add is the output per watt of bluer bulbs, since with reefing, this is a huge deal since most of our corals do better under bluer light... 500nm or less, which is what they like in nature as well. Not that a 5000K T5 cant pity a 5000K halide watt per watt, but haldies often lose alot of their output when going bluer. A 20,000K often has 1/2 the output of a 10,000K. Its just harder to generate blue light in such a hot bulb. Phosphors however... they dont have this problem. Many blue+ bulbs (blue/20,000K in output, not actinic) have outputs that rival the daylight bulbs for T5s. These 450nm peak bulbs do more for coral growth, color, etc, and are the real suppliment to be had... not actinic so much, as you go deeper in the ocean. To me, supplimenting 10,000Ks with actinics never made sense, as many 10,000Ks already have loads of actinic, more than most 20,000Ks in fact (its just all the other spectrums that cover this up). It always made a 'daypurple' look that wasnt complete... the blue was missing. And as it turns out, its much easier to make blue... as most blue/450nm bulbs have 4x the output of an actinic.
What the heck am I getting at? Well, some of the nicest setups I know of use a 2:1 halide to T5 wattage ratio, with the halides being 10,000Ks and the T5s being a mix of blue+ and actinics. This results in one of the nicest, 'day-blue' looking light fields I have ever seen. The corals I have seen under these combos also color in stronger than just about anything else... very intense, and better than anything I have been able to get with just T5s or halides alone. The growth and color of the same coral under my lights, vs. a friends tank with this combo is very different. You know that intensity that halides can give a coral? That 'rishness' in color, esp at the tips? Ok, and you know that 'pastel' or 'neon' look that T5s can give? Ok... now put those two together. WOW.
T5s have one shortcoming... there needs to be more husbandry with bulb mix. Running a majority of blue lights can leave you with very little to no warmer spectrums. This can result in many warmer colored corals being 'washed out'. Check mothra's blog at frags.org and you will see. With a 20,000K T5.... it makes loads ot blue, and little else. With a 20,000K halide, you can still have a complete output, as it still has a good deal of red, yellow, green... etc. not so with T5s. So the solution has been to add a 3000-5000K bulb into the mix to fill in these warmer spectrums.
After almost a year of running T5s though, I am starting to like them better than my halides. And I have tried some of the best halides... and alot of them. My corals just seem to like the T5s better. And I was a die-hard 'halides forever' reefer for a long time. Me buying T5s was to reduce heat and meet a low-profile requirement for one tank... I thought it would be a good alternative to halides, but as it turns out, the T5 tank was much brighter than the halide lit tanks... SAME WATTAGE and a near color match on the spectrum (14,000K pheonix 250wattDE vs. 234 watts of T5.. 2xaquablue, 2xblue+, 2x actinic03), and these bulbs arent even the monsters that some can be. I have a good buddy with a 4x39watt setup with only 2x6500Ks and 2x blue+ bulbs, and his tank not only looks brighter than mine, the light is nice... like a 12,000K, and the corals love it.
The one reason I think alot of people dont 'buy in' to T5s is the technology in the states is seriously lacking. The ATI powermodul, for instance, has 2x the output of a Tek using the same wattage and bulbs. (the ATI reading 302 at 18" and the Tek 152 at 18"). The active cooling that the ATI has, and other, even well vented passive units lack, can cost up to 25% of the bulbs output, and much of its longevity. Reflectors are sorely lacking over here as well. There are very few options, and only one major fixture (the tek) made in the US. The Aquatinics is good (the solar flare is great!) but a small influence. The best reflectors are the Icecap SLR's, but those are for retrofit, not fixtures, unless you buy the solar-flare. There are many crap vendors that push their single reflector units that waste 60% of the T5s output... Current USA, Coralife, etc. in europe, you have ATI, Giesemann, Sfiligoi, Elos, Aquaconnect, Fauna-Marin, and the list goes on. All of these brands use individual reflectors, active cooling, and superior reflectors. This is most likely the reason why so many european reefers have made the switch to T5s, tossing their halides to the curb. The average US made unit has 1/2, if not worse, of the output of a European make... this no doubt has influenced the opinions of many. But if those same people were to see better made examples, they would drop their halides like dead weight. I knoiw my early experiences with T5s were observing them at friend's homes over their reefs, with inferior bulbs and reflectors, and not until I saw a nicer unit for myself was I convinced of their true potential.
Nice tank, wetworx!
I can't really comment on the differences in effectiveness between T5's and MH. I try not to think too much about the numbers. I run only 3.6 watts per gallon, which a few years ago, was a big no-no for SPS keepers, but watts per gallon was never really a very good guideline, anyway.
Visually, they're quite different. Just my honest opinion, but I think T5's are better suited for softies and LPS, that need actinics to really bring out their brighter colors, which are mainly fluorescing pigments.
Most SPS I've seen look very odd and unnatural under T5. Some may like it, but SPS really lighten up to an almost unhealthy appearance.
The even spread of fluorescent lighting is a wonderful bonus, but it makes averything look flat. The shadowing form MH may seem like an issue for some, but it looks natural, giving your display depth and character.
Shimmer lines are absolutely breathtaking, and something I could never do without. It brings you just that much closer to the real thing
I can't really comment on the differences in effectiveness between T5's and MH. I try not to think too much about the numbers. I run only 3.6 watts per gallon, which a few years ago, was a big no-no for SPS keepers, but watts per gallon was never really a very good guideline, anyway.
Visually, they're quite different. Just my honest opinion, but I think T5's are better suited for softies and LPS, that need actinics to really bring out their brighter colors, which are mainly fluorescing pigments.
Most SPS I've seen look very odd and unnatural under T5. Some may like it, but SPS really lighten up to an almost unhealthy appearance.
The even spread of fluorescent lighting is a wonderful bonus, but it makes averything look flat. The shadowing form MH may seem like an issue for some, but it looks natural, giving your display depth and character.
Shimmer lines are absolutely breathtaking, and something I could never do without. It brings you just that much closer to the real thing
"Visually, they're quite different. Just my honest opinion, but I think T5's are better suited for softies and LPS, that need actinics to really bring out their brighter colors, which are mainly fluorescing pigments.
Most SPS I've seen look very odd and unnatural under T5. Some may like it, but SPS really lighten up to an almost unhealthy appearance. "
Oh, you wouldnt be saying that if you saw my tanks... or some of the others I know of that use T5s on SPS/clams. I understand your reluctance to accept this... I was a 'halide 4 life' stalwart until 10 months ago when the opportunity presented itself for me to try T5s. Now Im more impressed with T5s than I ever was with my halides. Even with my 20,000K halides, I dont get the intense coloration I get with my T5s in my SPS.
I would also point out that most LPS/softy species prefer a little lower lighting conditions... something that T5s are rather bad at allowing. Their coverage and penetration in my tanks it giving me a higher PAR than the equal wattage halide would at the bottom of the tank... I cant grow LPS/ softies in my T5 tank... only in the halide lit ones. My T5s are horrible for LPS/softies in that respect... too bright!
I had some bad first encounters with T5s... someone who was using 'sun bulbs' because they were free with the Tek unit, and other blue bulbs that he bought because they were cheaper than the G-mans... well... that 50% cost reduction came with a 50% output reduction as well. Needless to say, I wasnt impressed by his coral's coloration. Since trying it for myself, and with a quality setup and bulbs... its like night and day. Watt for watt, these T5s are out-doing my halides. Their pigments are waaaay more intense under the phosphors of the T5s.
You dont have to believe me. Just try it for yourself at some point... you'll see. I was a hard sale too...
Most SPS I've seen look very odd and unnatural under T5. Some may like it, but SPS really lighten up to an almost unhealthy appearance. "
Oh, you wouldnt be saying that if you saw my tanks... or some of the others I know of that use T5s on SPS/clams. I understand your reluctance to accept this... I was a 'halide 4 life' stalwart until 10 months ago when the opportunity presented itself for me to try T5s. Now Im more impressed with T5s than I ever was with my halides. Even with my 20,000K halides, I dont get the intense coloration I get with my T5s in my SPS.
I would also point out that most LPS/softy species prefer a little lower lighting conditions... something that T5s are rather bad at allowing. Their coverage and penetration in my tanks it giving me a higher PAR than the equal wattage halide would at the bottom of the tank... I cant grow LPS/ softies in my T5 tank... only in the halide lit ones. My T5s are horrible for LPS/softies in that respect... too bright!
I had some bad first encounters with T5s... someone who was using 'sun bulbs' because they were free with the Tek unit, and other blue bulbs that he bought because they were cheaper than the G-mans... well... that 50% cost reduction came with a 50% output reduction as well. Needless to say, I wasnt impressed by his coral's coloration. Since trying it for myself, and with a quality setup and bulbs... its like night and day. Watt for watt, these T5s are out-doing my halides. Their pigments are waaaay more intense under the phosphors of the T5s.
You dont have to believe me. Just try it for yourself at some point... you'll see. I was a hard sale too...
I respect your stance. I'm not saying either one is brighter or that one is better than the other. Just what it does for me as a hobbyist. As long as you like it better, that's what counts.
I've seen plenty of T5 tanks here and overseas, and the bright neon look is definitely not for me.
I've seen plenty of T5 tanks here and overseas, and the bright neon look is definitely not for me.
Oceans Ferevh:
I am in the works of setting up a 120 at my mom's house and am trying to make it low power consumption. I am planning to use a 150 HQI DE Coralife fixture for about 5 hours each day. I also picked up two NO flourescent ballasts that will run two actinic T6's and two 10K's (with decent reflectors). This way I do not have to have a really long actinic period.
In the end I will have the photo period something like this- 7am +NO actinic, 8am +NO 10K, 11:30am +Metal Halide (-NO), 4:30 +NO (-Metal Halide), 8pm -NO 10K, 9pm -NO actinic. Hopefully this will save on electricity but keep the tank lit throughout the day.
I am in the works of setting up a 120 at my mom's house and am trying to make it low power consumption. I am planning to use a 150 HQI DE Coralife fixture for about 5 hours each day. I also picked up two NO flourescent ballasts that will run two actinic T6's and two 10K's (with decent reflectors). This way I do not have to have a really long actinic period.
In the end I will have the photo period something like this- 7am +NO actinic, 8am +NO 10K, 11:30am +Metal Halide (-NO), 4:30 +NO (-Metal Halide), 8pm -NO 10K, 9pm -NO actinic. Hopefully this will save on electricity but keep the tank lit throughout the day.
Apparently Sanjay will be testing some T-5 setups in the near future. Hopefully that will offer some objective scientific data on the topic...
I found the following thread interesting - apparently someone tested the new 175 watt Iwasaki halide against a Tek T-5 setup.
PAR Readings for 6x54 Tek T-5 fixture vs Iwasaki 15k 175 MH Bulb
Many variables at play here of course, but interesting data...
Regardless of how the numbers stack up, they're both obviously viable systems judging by all the great tanks using either (or both).
I found the following thread interesting - apparently someone tested the new 175 watt Iwasaki halide against a Tek T-5 setup.
PAR Readings for 6x54 Tek T-5 fixture vs Iwasaki 15k 175 MH Bulb
Many variables at play here of course, but interesting data...
Regardless of how the numbers stack up, they're both obviously viable systems judging by all the great tanks using either (or both).
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