Tank setup and making filtration work forums?

[OddFish]

Do you know here or somewhere Tank setup and Making filtration work forums? I'm not a newbie (1 yr), but am stuck with some problems and looking for a detailed help. General conceptions I already know, but can't make them work, though.
Most forums are how to set tank and then choose inhabitants for it. I'm following the opposite procedure: have a few groups of corals (and fish) with different needs, trying to accomodate them the better way. In nano-scale and more.
Any points in the right direction?

 

[ChrisRD]

If you have specific questions you can ask right here and I'm sure we can give you some suggestions.

 

[OddFish]

Thank you, Chris.

I just made my tanks threads, with photos, setup and descriptions for a reference. All tanks: http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=98764
and 90g predators tank: http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1184701#1184701.

In short,
90g BB tank with heavy feeding and wasting, side sump and refugium. Skimmer is after 100 micron sock, ASM G-3 - can't make it work efficiently.
Filtration: Fluval 404 canister filter with filter floss, biomedia and phosphate remover, cleaned twice aweek. The other is in-sump filtration through 100 mk sock, changed daily. Both - around 300 gph each.
Fish is bothered even by existing flow and need redistribution of flow. Diagram and aquascaping - in the thread.

The problems:
- insufficient filtration, canister started to leak. Ordered Sequence Dart external pump, 3000gph, to make an intermittent high flow filtration, 3 times daily for 15 min into micron sock, other flow this time- off. Have no idea about undrilled plumbing for it, digging.
- reaquascaping - have to make more place for a swimming, probably part of the rock will come into the sump.
- have troubles with setting corals into the valleys in LR, fish and hermits drop them frequently. Don't want to attach permanently, because as corals grow and tank setup changes, have to move them in the more suitable place.
- unreasonable organization and too much work in general, it was a slow way to make the things work, now is the time to make it less time-consuming in inexpensive way.

Water flow:
Total is around 2000 gph.
Sump intake for 100 mk filtration ~300gph,
Canister intake for cruder mechanical filtration - about the same.
Not enough for filtration and too much for a fish.
The whole concept of bare-bottom keeping is to remove waste out, before it starts to decompose, by making enough flow (without dead spots) to flow the big and heavy waste to the front, where it will be removed by weekly siphoning, and keep the small particles suspended.

1. The uneaten food (some pieces are lost) drops at the bottom and the hermits are not 100% pickers. This should be removed daily or at least every second day.
How to keep my hands out the tank? What is an alternative?

2. Small particles become suspended after the rock basting, filters' intakes unable to handle this, and all drops onto the bottom and LR again.

I thought about increasing flow through the filter.
There was an article about intermittent high-flow filtration in a 45g barrel-shaped tank. http://www.reefland.com/rho/1105/feature7.php
- Couldn't find how to do plumbing with flow dividers;
- should they be at the top only, or go to the bottom too; powerheads are more flexible.
- should the loop be separate from the all-time running return pump? I can't even imagine the other way to solve this.
- already ordered Sequence Dart pump (external), analog of the used in the article, ~3000gph. Also have Ocean Runner PH 2500, ~600gph, may be replace Eheim 1250 with it's 300gph?

How to make flow distribution, many small outlets on different levels of the tank, that will keep detritus suspended and will not bother my slow-moving fish?

Where these outlets should be located, to make reasonable good flow and, again, not exclude this parts of the tank from fish's use?

What I have now - is not efficient and not acceptable for a fish. A lot of tank's space is excluded from the use:

Description:
- Seio PH blows along the front glass to the sump's intake, close to the bottom;
- the back is covered by the sump return: down and along the back, toward canister filter intake;
- the other Seio PH, directed to the front glass on the top, makes the surface to move, facilitating oxygen intake, and, after reflecting, blows between 2 main rock masses to the back.
- CustomFlo spray bars on the back are just dissipating Fluval's outflow, toward the back of the LR.

The last is, that ASM G-3 skimmer don't skim efficiently. And I can't now start spending on modifications. Any ideas, how to make it work? Now trying different variants, not one worked so far.
After 10-15 tries I can adjust skimming to produce dark skimmate - only around half-cup a week. Tank water becomes visibly dirty.
If wet skimmate - the tea-colored thing, water becomes cleaner, but: daily or once in 2 days emptying cup and adjusting again, 10-15 times the riser tube, is quite irritating. Nobody else have this problem, apparently. What is wrong?

Summarize:
- filtration flow, probably, is not sufficient;
- it's too high to bother slow-moving fish already;
- how to make undrilled side plumbing for a new 3000 gph pump;
- how to redistribute this new flow (and the old one too) to not bother fish;
- skimmer ASM-G3 (Mini - the same) doesn't work properly, needs constant adjustments. How to make it work?
- how to re-aquascape to make more space for a fish, still keeping a few hiding places for a two the big ones?

Please, who can, try to work this out with me.

 

[OddFish]

Bump. You told that I can ask here.
Hopeless, out of experience, or should I start a new thread?

 

[blackcloudmedia]

What sort of filtration problems are you having? Is it clarity? Flow? Quality? Perhaps your feeding the fish too much and that is why you have uneaten food. I target feed EVERYTHING in my tank. Unless Im in a lazy mood that is.

 

[OddFish]

The tank's description with photos is in Members tanks area.

Tank is 90 g, BB, with messy fish: large tassle filefish, puffer, mandarin and scooter, the last two are fed my mysis and just can't be target fed. The first 2 are fed from tweezers, piece by piece, 3 times daily, they requite it. They are spitting half-chewed food, then choose the best piece, and repeat this again. And the wastes of the large fish are quite a mass to be removed.

Filtration:
- Fluval 404 canister filter with floss, ceramic biomedia, and phosphate remover. Cleaned twice a week, bio-media is also cleaned by toothbrush once in a few months.
- 100 micron sock in the sump, changed daily. Flow through the side sump is 300 gph, Eheim pump.
- ASM G-3 protein skimmer, oversized for a tank, just right for bio-load.

Problems with filtration (could be with tank setup too):

1. Can't make ASM skimmer work efficiently. It works, but after long adjustments each time.
Received suggestions:
- to lower riser tube after turning on again, wait, then move up,
- increase depth to 10"
trying now, works partially, far from perfect. Posted at manufacturer forum, no answer yet.

2. The logic of keeping BB tank requires arrange flow the way that all floor area should be covered, any debris suspended and removed by filtration.
The flow description is above, my previous post, 2000 gph total in 90g - fish despise it.
Yet, flow into the sump is not picking debris - most are just settle onto the bottom again.

3. Canister is used until I make micron sock filtration work.

Possible solution,
that I could find on the web, is to make higher flow through sump, so more particles will be sucked into mk sock.
Particularly, here http://www.reefland.com/rho/1105/feature7.php is description of the barrel-shaped 45g tank with 2 pumps - low flow, working all the time, and high flow, working 3 times daily for 15 min.

Possible problems with this approach:

- the fish is slow moving (lion, tassle filefish, mandarin, scooter). Even 300 gph drags it. And they need a lot of places of the peace and quiet, not to live in a hurricane. What are alternatives?
- the tank is undrilled, sump is on the side - same water level. How to do the plumbing, 2 separate loops? Spraybars or a several 1/2" outputs; all at the top or on different levels of the tank too; all at the back, or at the front too?

I can't change fish or a tank.
What can be done for the better, to remove crud from the water column, and not to bother fish?

I'm stuck. What have I missed?

BTW, same problem in another tank, 10g with scooter only.

 

[blackcloudmedia]

Hmm that is a lot of flow, I have an outdoor pond that is 2000 gallons and its only 800 GPH. My advice to you with those slow movers is just use a powerhead for flow, and get yourself a venturi skimmer with a needlewheel impellar. I have a good one, I forgot the brand but Ill post it when I get home. You also appear to be feeding your fish too much. Especially if they are spitting out food. I feed mine once a day and even that is a lot. Basically feed them once a day and if they still spit out food then cut back. Eventually they will eat if their hungry enough. NEVER leave uneaten food in the tank. You just have to get your hands wet, thats the nature of it. You wouldnt believe how messy shrimp makes a tank. I dont think its a flow issue, In fact I think you have too much flow. Flow isnt going to make the tank cleaner. Skimmers make the tank cleaner. How deep is your sand bed? Could you show a list of EVERY living thing in your 90 gal. I think this will help advise how much you should be feeding, compatability, etc.

 

[trido]

BIG EDIT.

 

[trido]

Summarize:
- filtration flow, probably, is not sufficient;
- it's too high to bother slow-moving fish already;
- how to make undrilled side plumbing for a new 3000 gph pump;
- how to redistribute this new flow (and the old one too) to not bother fish;
- skimmer ASM-G3 (Mini - the same) doesn't work properly, needs constant adjustments. How to make it work?
- how to re-aquascape to make more space for a fish, still keeping a few hiding places for a two the big ones?

If you look in the DIY forums there are two mods you can do that will cost less then ten dollars for the both of your skimmers. Either one of them will make you skimmer work REAL well. One is labled "Sedra 5000 venturi mod" and the other is "threadwheel mod". The are both VERY inexpensive.

Also you posted this " to not bother fish" regarding flow issues. I doubt your fish will care what you do and Id bet they need the exercise.If it is truely too much flow for a particular fish you should consider getting rid of it for the overall health of your reefs.

Do a search on closed loop for your new over the side plumbing/pump. As far as distibution of all of your over all flow You can use pvc pipes and/or loc line fittings to split up the feeds into your tank.

Re aquascaping for more room simply requires trial and error. I dont think anyone can tell you how to stack your particular rock to make it the way you want it. Every rock in every tank is shaped differently. You have to do that on your own.

AS far as mounting your corals, You can predrill all of your LR with a masonry bit and mount acrylic dowels to the underside all of your corals or simply use superglue gel or epoxy like most do. The epoxy and gel aren't hat permanent. I for example, use them both and move corals when ever neccessary. AS long as they dont encrust to your rocks you can move them easily. By the time they do encrust , It will most likely be a permanent home for them anyway.

You also wrote that you needed to know how to get the detritous and excess food out every other day. Bi-weekly with waterchanges should be sufficient. If you try to keep a sterile box of an environment (fish tank) You will work yourself to death and have the fish constantly stressed.

Pictures say a thousand words. If you look in the members tank specs forums you can get great ideas for aquascaping and even learn a thing or two on the plumbing you need to know. My tank specs are at the bottom of my post in the sig box. There are alot of pics and explanations of plumbing in there for starters.

 

[trido]

More darned douple posting. Sorry reefs.org

 

[OddFish]

The tank is bare-bottom, no sandbed at all - easier to clean. I'm doing vacuuming of the bottom every day, or at least every other day. With picking the big visible pieces after feeding. Thought, that could be the easier way, but if I have to - I will do that.

Unfortunately, this large odd fish requires 3x daily feedings, it described by sellers, and confirmed by Chaetodermis keepers, that responded http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.p ... opic=85952 . Small fish is picking the small pieces, but not all, and I can't add more of them - tank is fully stocked.

If my flow already is more, than sufficient, I should be better to try to eliminate Seio powerheads (they give the most significant part of the flow) and add (or replace existing) another, bigger pump in the sump, so all water will go through micron sock. Still problem with plumbing - how to do that, as I asked above.

The skimmer I have now, is very good - gigantic, 250g rated, the pump is with needlewheel impeller, 500 gph. Only have troubles with adjusting it for efficient work. Anyway, tank is much cleaner whan with smaller skimmers, CC or venturi.

Fill list of inhabitants:
- Tassle filefish, Chaetodermis, 6" before the tail, ~5" tall body (almost flat rhomboid), main spitter and waste producer, even the last is impressive;
- antennata lionfish, 4" before tail, clean eater, no problem;
- valentini puffer, ~2", spits too, but less, because it's small;
- clownfish, sold as percula, ~2" too, picks after all;
- mandarin dragonet, ~2.3-3", expected him to eat pellets, as on Melev's Reef; no - frozen food only, and because of the flow there are no quiet place in the tank to put inside the jar with the mysis - all flows away, after flow turned on again after feeding. Food should be almost all day in the tank. Link to what is going on during feeding;
- scooter blenny, ~1.5", dragonet too, same food as mandarin;
- 2 blood, or fire shrimps, ~2" each - medical help to the fish, each is target fed;
- porcelain crab;
- 10-15 hermits: zebra, blue-legged, maroon, medium to the large size, they kill each other, it's all what was left from twice more. They pick the food from the bottom;
- 4 turbo snails of different sizes, were more, with skimmer they have not enough food in the tank, another 2 of them were moved to the 10g tank - a lot of good work there;
- 1 tiger cowrie, 2-2.5";
- double colony of the sun coral, medium and large, 3 cubes of ocean plankton twice a week, spawned twice;
- branched hammers, 2 kinds, 3 heads each;
- branched frogspawn, 2 heads;
- 2 small white xenia - not much growth;
- 2 big (6" diameter) capnellas with a lot of incidental frags - will remove some, they can take over the tank;
- several red mushrooms, not much growth;
- GSP and BSP and yellow polyps, palm size each; will they help with nitrates or phosphates?
- anthelia, 4 colonies of total size less than a palm - is bothered by big fish;
- white lemnalia (could be wrong ID), small;
- 3 small chili corals,
- micro-frag of scleronepthya.
- 5 g refugium with chaeto. Have also ochtodes - will it help? Caulerpa grows worse, removed it.

No corals are fed especially, except the sun coral.
Refugium becomes dirty fast, because particles of mysis flow through the grid of Maxi-Jet 900 (~210 gph), and a few amphypods survived through cleaning, mostly mysiids.

One more question on the tank setup:
LR occupies too much space in the tank, fish grows on need place to swim. May be move 1/3 of the rock into the sump - I can make bigger sump or refugium. LR is needed for bio-filtration.

 

[trido]

Oddfish wrote: The tank is bare-bottom, no sandbed at all - easier to clean. I'm doing vacuuming of the bottom every day, or at least every other day. With picking the big visible pieces after feeding. Thought, that could be the easier way, but if I have to - I will do that.
trido wrote: You also wrote that you needed to know how to get the detritous and excess food out every other day. Bi-weekly with waterchanges should be sufficient. If you try to keep a sterile box of an environment (fish tank) You will work yourself to death and have the fish constantly stressed.

Oddfish wrote: Unfortunately, this large odd fish requires 3x daily feedings, it described by sellers, and confirmed by Chaetodermis keepers, that responded http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.p ... opic=85952 . Small fish is picking the small pieces, but not all, and I can't add more of them - tank is fully stocked.
trido wrote: you should consider getting rid of it for the overall health of your reefs.

Odd fish wrote: If my flow already is more, than sufficient, What is more than sufficient? For a reef you want to have a minimum of 30x turnover (example: 100 gallon tank =3000 Gallons per hour of flow)and I have heard of people having as much as 100x turnover

Oddfish wrote: I should be better to try to eliminate Seio powerheads (they give the most significant part of the flow) and add (or replace existing) another, bigger pump in the sump, so all water will go through micron sock. You mean through the sump. Correct? The general rule of thumb is to only have as much flow as your skimmer can filter or 10x the tank size.
oddfish wrote:Still problem with plumbing - how to do that, as I asked above.
Trido Wrote: Do a search on closed loop for your new over the side plumbing/pump. As far as distibution of all of your over all flow You can use pvc pipes and/or loc line fittings to split up the feeds into your tank. I dont beleive anyone can tell you over the internet how to plumb YOUR tank. You will have to look at pictures and do your best, or hire someone from your local fish store to do it for you

Oddfish wrote: The skimmer I have now, is very good - gigantic, 250g rated, the pump is with needlewheel impeller, 500 gph. Only have troubles with adjusting it for efficient work. Anyway, tank is much cleaner whan with smaller skimmers, CC or venturi.
Trido Wrote: If you look in the DIY forums there are two mods you can do that will cost less then ten dollars for the both of your skimmers. Either one of them will make you skimmer work REAL well. One is labled "Sedra 5000 venturi mod" and the other is "threadwheel mod". The are both VERY inexpensive. I guess I should have been more descritpive. I also have an ASM G-3 skimmer. I was never satisfied until I did these simple mods to it. All the adjusting in the world won't make it produce more skimmate.


Oddfish wrote:Fill list of inhabitants:
- Tassle filefish, Chaetodermis, 6" before the tail, ~5" tall body (almost flat rhomboid), main spitter and waste producer, even the last is impressive;
- antennata lionfish, 4" before tail, clean eater, no problem;
- valentini puffer, ~2", spits too, but less, because it's small;
- clownfish, sold as percula, ~2" too, picks after all;
- mandarin dragonet, ~2.3-3", expected him to eat pellets, as on Melev's Reef; no - frozen food only, and because of the flow there are no quiet place in the tank to put inside the jar with the mysis - all flows away, after flow turned on again after feeding. Food should be almost all day in the tank. Link to what is going on during feeding;
- scooter blenny, ~1.5", dragonet too, same food as mandarin;
- 2 blood, or fire shrimps, ~2" each - medical help to the fish, each is target fed;
- porcelain crab;
- 10-15 hermits: zebra, blue-legged, maroon, medium to the large size, they kill each other, it's all what was left from twice more. They pick the food from the bottom;
- 4 turbo snails of different sizes, were more, with skimmer they have not enough food in the tank, another 2 of them were moved to the 10g tank - a lot of good work there;
- 1 tiger cowrie, 2-2.5";
- double colony of the sun coral, medium and large, 3 cubes of ocean plankton twice a week, spawned twice;
- branched hammers, 2 kinds, 3 heads each;
- branched frogspawn, 2 heads;
- 2 small white xenia - not much growth;
- 2 big (6" diameter) capnellas with a lot of incidental frags - will remove some, they can take over the tank;
- several red mushrooms, not much growth;
- GSP and BSP and yellow polyps, palm size each; will they help with nitrates or phosphates?
- anthelia, 4 colonies of total size less than a palm - is bothered by big fish;
- white lemnalia (could be wrong ID), small;
- 3 small chili corals,
- micro-frag of scleronepthya.
- 5 g refugium with chaeto. Have also ochtodes - will it help? Caulerpa grows worse, removed it.

No corals are fed especially, except the sun coral.
Refugium becomes dirty fast, because particles of mysis flow through the grid of Maxi-Jet 900 (~210 gph), and a few amphypods survived through cleaning, mostly mysiids.
I thought we were talking about two tanks at first. This post sounds like you have all of these fish and corals in one tank. How big is this tank? IMO some of these fish are better suited for a fish only system, not a reef. In my opinion, You have enough listed above for two medium or large fish tanks

One more question on the tank setup:
LR occupies too much space in the tank, fish grows on need place to swim. May be move 1/3 of the rock into the sump - I can make bigger sump or refugium. LR is needed for bio-filtration. What IS the question? If you want to move the LR to a seperate tank you can but it will still need to be maintained (cleaned) as if it were in the display.

 

[OddFish]

trido:
Thanks for the input! I'll take a look at modifications. That, that were recommended by manufacturer, are more expensive.

Getting rid of this fish? No. This big tank was bought solely for it, sentimental value of the particular personality, I guess. The reef is doing quite good in a few nano-tanks, that I have.
Seriously, the mandarin is dragged by 300 gph flow at 1 ft, the lionfish with a large fan-like fins has a hard time going against flow, and all time tries to find a peaceful place to rest, the odd fish stands on the same place below powerheads, but time form time comes for the massage shower. Others don't mind.
Counting that I'm not the only one with such fish, may be there is some solution...

BTW, started to clean more the bottom, turbo snails tonight picked the rocks clean, and I thought that they are eating diatoms only.

Search on closed loop - done, but without answers on the basics:
- will that be two separate lines of PVC tubing, side by side with each other, or how else;
- should the tubes go deep into the tank for raising debris into the water column;
- how to make all this less obtrusive (general idea);
- and the detailed location of the outlets:
-- to cover effectively all the tank (with the goal to keep debris suspended, again) around 2 main rock masses, any canister and powerheads will be removed;
-- to push water in the direction of the sump intake - at the right, top.

And the rules of thumb:
- for outflow diameter - 8 times of the output from the pump;
- should the diameter of tubing become larger right after return pump (I had seen it mentioned frequently)?

Aquascaping:
Yes, but:
- lionfish requires steep slopes to watch down (with no corals on them), and the caves to sleep;
- tassle filefish requires the place away from lion: the other cave to hide, the rock mass to hide behind, shelf/terrace for a secure sleeping, and a long space for maneuvering, including turning back and up.
In this terms, I mean.
I made two separate masses of the rock, but lion goes where it pleases, and a filefish has to go away. May be make something like narrow gap, where lion can't enter, but flat vertical filefish can?

Good idea on mounting corals, thanks.

About water turnover: enough or not - it was answer to another poster. And this is tank made for the particular fish, corals are just to fill the space. Soft corals and a few LPS - never SPS; the corals I have have compatible requirements with this fish.

The general rule of thumb is to only have as much flow as your skimmer can filter or 10x the tank size.

Now I have 3x and can do 6.5x or 30x (pumps I already have and one is already ordered). Skimmer is capable for 5x of tank volume.
But (again ):
The particles, raised into the water column, are not going into the sump, only small part of them - that why I thought about another pump.

BTW, should the skimmer be after micron sock?

I dont beleive anyone can tell you over the internet how to plumb YOUR tank. You will have to look at pictures and do your best, or hire someone from your local fish store to do it for you

Allow me respectfully to disagree with you: there are a lot of illustrated descriptions on the web how to do the drilled plumbing for a two or more pumps, also a lot - for a closed loop for moving water for undrilled tank. Many of them - with sand, different requirements.

May be somebody, by any chance, has or had seen and remembers link or a principle how to make 2 loops for an undilled BB tank and main patterns of the flow distribution, beyond "it's up to you".
The question was for those, who knows.

I thought we were talking about two tanks at first. This post sounds like you have all of these fish and corals in one tank. How big is this tank? IMO some of these fish are better suited for a fish only system, not a reef. In my opinion, You have enough listed above for two medium or large fish tanks

I have 6 tanks; all, except one, are nano-size. Only 4 of them need help, the 2 of which - mainly should be united or kept separately; and in which tank put sexy shrimps. May be later, after we finish with this big tank.

This thread, after the initial post, is about 90g not reef-safe fish (and some corals, that are there, excess from other tanks). I listed above on request of the previous poster too, tank is stocked by fish, no place for more, and I don't want more too.
As for corals - it's quite empty, mostly bare rocks. They are not so important in this tank, just some excess and back-up. It's only the list, that looks long.

The third tank, requiring advice, is nano-tank with non-photosynthetic and low light corals and macro-algae; not how to improve the existing tank, but how to make a better nano-system for a keeping non-photosynthetic corals, requirements (as I can see them, I could be wrong) are listed, the thread is here: http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=98706

Thank you for your help: a lot of good points, will follow them.