Australian Sea Apple Care

[mickeyh]

I have a 100 gallon tank that is about 9 months old. The person who services the tank recently added an Australian sea apple. I read with interest the article by Rob Toonen, Ph.D. on their care and am concerned that this sea cucumber will ultimately die and wipe out everything in the tank with it. Does anyone have any experience with these creatures? Do they necessarily give off toxic gases when they die? It is firmly anchored to the glass. Can it be removed without it releasing toxins that will kill everything else in the tank? Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

 

[ChrisRD]

Hi Mickey and :welcome:

No experience with sea apples but I'll move this to the main discussion forum where you're more likely to get some input.

HTH

 

[Anonymous]

Sea Apples.....the hand grenades of the sea....my advice is to remove this creature from your reef IMMEDIATELY.
Apples are very VERY easily stressed -even a curious clown fish can stress them out hard enough for them to go belly up - and take the rest of your tank with it.
Beautiful yes, but not something to keep in any tank, with the exception of being by itslef in a seperate display.

 

[plack]

I recently asked people who service others reefs for a living why they sell these when they are so toxic.

Here is the jist of his reply !

"I have never known anyone who had one wipe out a tank IMMEDIATELY !!!!

They show there stress symptoms early on and MOST REEFERS look at the tank at least once a day and would notice this right off the bat."

Every time he has researched where others have had a tank hurt it was "due to them LEAVING IT IN THE TANK TO LONG in a bad condition".


I don't have first hand experience- My wife want's me to add one though!
I have kept a sebay alive for 5 years so far and a linkia the same amount.

I know Many people have had anenmoes go bad and wipe out the tank quickly !

I know many have had asexual microalgae wipe out there tank quickly1

even in those cases with ALLOT of work and water changes new carbon etc --- some thing live thru it.

I think Sea apples are just as risky in the same way and could most likely live safely once they get a spot in the reff they like and conditions stay consistent as is needed for an anenome.

You can disagree-- thats fine-- I am justhoping for a well thought out responce- please

Paul

 

[plack]

Sorry double posted by mistake !

 

[Anonymous]

I recently asked people who service others reefs for a living why they sell these when they are so toxic.

Here is the jist of his reply !

"I have never known anyone who had one wipe out a tank IMMEDIATELY !!!!

They show there stress symptoms early on and MOST REEFERS look at the tank at least once a day and would notice this right off the bat."

Every time he has researched where others have had a tank hurt it was "due to them LEAVING IT IN THE TANK TO LONG in a bad condition".


I don't have first hand experience- My wife want's me to add one though!
I have kept a sebay alive for 5 years so far and a linkia the same amount.

I know Many people have had anenmoes go bad and wipe out the tank quickly !

I know many have had asexual microalgae wipe out there tank quickly1

even in those cases with ALLOT of work and water changes new carbon etc --- some thing live thru it.

I think Sea apples are just as risky in the same way and could most likely live safely once they get a spot in the reff they like and conditions stay consistent as is needed for an anenome.

You can disagree-- thats fine-- I am justhoping for a well thought out responce- please

Paul

I mostly agree with these thoughts regarding their toxicity.

One thing that is often overlooked when discussing sea apples is that they are almost entirely phytoplankton feeders--they need a lot of it, and they really need to be fed it all day long. That means a very low concentration of phytoplankton in the water at all times, not just a squirt of it a couple times a day. The method of feeding and resultant water quality issues should be a larger concern than the toxicity of the animal, IMhO.

 

[Ben1]

Does anyone have any long term care of these under their belt though? Why would anyone purchase an animal that is known to do so poorly in captivity. I have never heard of anyone keeping one healthy long term. IMO thats the same senario where they are importing things because a LFS can sell them although caring for them is a very hard to do task, and by buying them you are just causing a demand for something that isnt a well thought out reef tank inhabitant.

Kinda along the lines of all the people buying japanese corals, illegally imported. People are buying them so the demand is there so the importing will continue.

Untill someone shows me that they have been able to keep sea apples long term, they will stay in my book as something LFS should avoid ordering and responsible aquarist should avoid buying.

JMO

 

[Anonymous]

Does anyone have any long term care of these under their belt though? Why would anyone purchase an animal that is known to do so poorly in captivity. I have never heard of anyone keeping one healthy long term. IMO thats the same senario where they are importing things because a LFS can sell them although caring for them is a very hard to do task, and by buying them you are just causing a demand for something that isnt a well thought out reef tank inhabitant.

Kinda along the lines of all the people buying japanese corals, illegally imported. People are buying them so the demand is there so the importing will continue.

Untill someone shows me that they have been able to keep sea apples long term, they will stay in my book as something LFS should avoid ordering and responsible aquarist should avoid buying.

JMO

Yes, people have kept them for many years. Rob Toonen and Chuck Stottlemire are two folks that have written articles about it. The husbandry is fairly straightforward but difficult or too much work for the average hobbyist to accomplish--feed them phytoplankton all the time.

They are not animals that will do well unless properly cared for (are any of the animals we keep any different? ) but I can think of much worse choices for a controlled environment. The problem with some of your statements is that depending on your definitions of "poorly", "healthy", "long term", etc. it could be an argument for not buying many marine fish at all. Tangs, angels, butterflies, triggers very very rarely reach their maximum sizes and ages in hobbyist tanks--should they not be purchased?

 

[plack]

Matt you made a good point .

I forgot to mention it --The store owner i asked ( who keeps one as well) First said to me if you feed your corals rotifiers regularly it shoud do fine.

I know he feeds 2-3 times a week not every day. but I don't know what stays in the water column from my 4X daily fish feeding's and what gets skimmed away!

I know some of it ends up in the fuge. some carbon takes away ?

I plan on watching his as it is in a 4 foot cube and also see if anyone has more dietary info !


Thank's

Paul

 

[Anonymous]

Here's links to the articles Matt mentioned, great info in them:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/ ... invert.htm

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008- ... /index.php

 

[Anonymous]

Matt you made a good point .

I forgot to mention it --The store owner i asked ( who keeps one as well) First said to me if you feed your corals rotifiers regularly it shoud do fine.

I know he feeds 2-3 times a week not every day. but I don't know what stays in the water column from my 4X daily fish feeding's and what gets skimmed away!

I know some of it ends up in the fuge. some carbon takes away ?

I plan on watching his as it is in a 4 foot cube and also see if anyone has more dietary info !


Thank's

Paul

I think that is a bold statement by the owner. As stated in the article Lawdawg linked (thanks Tracy!) gut content analysis shows that rotifers would be too large for sea apples. It is also unlikely that your fish feeding will offer anything that the sea apple can ingest.

The problem with most people's "advice" on animals like this is that it may take 6 months for the animal to perish before they realize they were completely wrong about what to feed it. That's about how long it would take for the animal to starve to death even if it weren't being fed at all...

 

[Ben1]

They are not animals that will do well unless properly cared for (are any of the animals we keep any different? )

Yes but the care for them is more difficult then the average hobbist can offer where most the animals LFS carry are not.

statements is that depending on your definitions of "poorly", "healthy", "long term", etc. it could be an argument for not buying many marine fish at all. Tangs, angels, butterflies, triggers very very rarely reach their maximum sizes and ages in hobbyist tanks--should they not be purchased?

Of course my opinion may vary from yours but in general I do know of tons of people keeping the fish you mentioned for long term, they are not the type that perish in short order in the average tank. Maybe I am wrong in making generalized statements using words like "poorly, heathy, and long term" but these were just my opinion, not meant to be a scientific statement on sea apples. I know my definition on these word might be different then yours or anyone elses reading these boards. I am not someone sanctioning the marine import trade in any form, just have an opinion based on my time in the hobby.

So a few people have been successful at keeping them in captivity, but I would be willing to bet only 1/100 sold at my LFS last more then 3 months after purchase. :roll: So I stand by what I said and feel my comments were correct, although there may be some people keeping them with success, I feel those are far and few between.

Like I said my statements were not meant to be scientific in any sense, and are just based on my observations as someone in the hobby. Not everyone have your level of education and experience in the hobby, but I still feel my additions to the boards are usefull, as someone who has been keeping reef tanks for 12 years. It is difficult to always make statements using factual data on years certain species need to be kept to be considered successful since this is subjective based on who you are talking to. Thus I may use terms you think are to loose, which I why I am always cautious to use a just my opinion after most my comments.

I do feel LFS should carry livestock that has been known to do well in aquariums, and leave the rest like sea apples off their orders unless someone has a special order for the item and are perpared for its care. It makes no sense in my book to carry these. YMMV, JMO!

 

[camaroracer214]

sea cucumbers are from the family holothuroidea and are basically sea cucumbers...only modified for a different feeding mode. they, like all sea cucumbers, possess holothurin. this is a deadly toxin that will kill fish. it won't kill anything else but fish. but this doesn't mean a dead or dying sea apple won't wipe out your entire tank. if it or the dead fish decay long enough, they will cause your tank to have an ammonia spike and then kill everything.

 

[robinhood]

This may be a bit long but if you’ve made it this far your interested , it might also need to be moved to another Colum I’m not sure, first post on reefs .

From experience.

I own currently two Sea Apples. I have had three over the past 10 years. one of my currents I have had for over three years.

I don’t speak Sea Apple but he’s large (about 6 to 7 inches round), feeds well and other than a huge move of house I just pulled he generally seems quite content on his perch. The second I currently have is emancipated, starving and may not make it, I just (two weeks ago) rescued it from the LFS in my new area. I will attached pics once I figure out how to The third was my first and died of a parasite I think (more below) I had had him for almost 5 years.

They are a fascinating creatures and I am glad for the opportunity of keeping such an animal from both the fascinating experiences and the absolute up scaling of my marine keeping skills and knowledge.

I have had one die as mentioned above, it did not wipe the tank, however as mentioned in the above post it could have. Although from my experience it would take quite a bit to cause a Sea Apple to expel its toxin. Although marine animals have personalities to so some may be more temperamental than others.

Now if you left a one dead in a tank specially if it was large and in good health (died rapidly) then it would almost definitely kill the tank but as mentioned above that goes for almost anything with a significant bio mass. Rule number one don’t leave dead anything in your tank

The one that died, died over a period of two weeks, I noticed a dot that turned into a tear/break in the exterior of the animal about 2 to 3 mil long and white tissue exposed, it was still feeding and seemingly in good health. The lesion spread as I tried everything to treat it. I eventually moved it after several days and obvious decrease in health to a 10 Gal hospital tank where it died 10 days later almost completely consumed. It even still fed up until day 6. I tried water changes, garlic, treating the food and even in the last days meds from the LFS (non copper based) and even a fresh water dip. Some of this may have been torturous but near the end I was trying anything reasonable that folks suggested.

The tank it was in showed no other signs of problems with any other inhabitants except my clown got a parasite, after feeding it with garlic treated food the parasite died and the wound healed. I had added some live rock supposedly cured from the LFS may be something snuck in.

So I still don’t know what killed the Sea Apple, however that was about as much stress a creature could go though (that doesn’t involve suction of course, which I believe is probably involved more often than not with a Sea Apples wiping out a tank) and as far as I know at least in the first 4 days it did not pollute the tank.

However Sea Apple keeping is not for the faint of heart. Where I don’t believe the keeping is out side the average knowledge base of the Marine keeping hobbits it is probably outside of the average wanted responsibility and effort one can or desires to invest. Whether its worth it I think that’s up to the individual for me definitely.

The tricks to keeping sea apples are explained far better than I in the articles list above. I would not even dream of getting into this with out reading them. Good info on sea apples is hard to find you wouldn’t believe the stuff I’ve heard especially about their diet. Which is as the articles say phytoplankton, phytoplankton and more phytoplankton. If you do not read before you leap most likely you will slowly starve you animal to death over a period of many months or kill it quickly with water quality, temperature or a pump.

If you would like more info on specifics of what I feed them, the tanks, the water I would be happy to provide the info. I think this post is about as long as it should be. Just wanted give my 2 cents, happy reef keeping no doubt I will run into you in other conversations.

cheers

 

[robinhood]

just a note:

both Sea Apples are in the same tank and share with:

1. Zebra eel (5 years)
1. Ghost eel (18 months)
1. Maroon clown (4-5 years)
1. bubble tip anenomy (2-5 years)
1. Damsel
2. cleaner shrimp

Various hermits and stars

 

[Anonymous]

They are not animals that will do well unless properly cared for (are any of the animals we keep any different? )

Yes but the care for them is more difficult then the average hobbist can offer where most the animals LFS carry are not.

statements is that depending on your definitions of "poorly", "healthy", "long term", etc. it could be an argument for not buying many marine fish at all. Tangs, angels, butterflies, triggers very very rarely reach their maximum sizes and ages in hobbyist tanks--should they not be purchased?

Of course my opinion may vary from yours but in general I do know of tons of people keeping the fish you mentioned for long term, they are not the type that perish in short order in the average tank. Maybe I am wrong in making generalized statements using words like "poorly, heathy, and long term" but these were just my opinion, not meant to be a scientific statement on sea apples. I know my definition on these word might be different then yours or anyone elses reading these boards. I am not someone sanctioning the marine import trade in any form, just have an opinion based on my time in the hobby.

So a few people have been successful at keeping them in captivity, but I would be willing to bet only 1/100 sold at my LFS last more then 3 months after purchase. :roll: So I stand by what I said and feel my comments were correct, although there may be some people keeping them with success, I feel those are far and few between.

Like I said my statements were not meant to be scientific in any sense, and are just based on my observations as someone in the hobby. Not everyone have your level of education and experience in the hobby, but I still feel my additions to the boards are usefull, as someone who has been keeping reef tanks for 12 years. It is difficult to always make statements using factual data on years certain species need to be kept to be considered successful since this is subjective based on who you are talking to. Thus I may use terms you think are to loose, which I why I am always cautious to use a just my opinion after most my comments.

I do feel LFS should carry livestock that has been known to do well in aquariums, and leave the rest like sea apples off their orders unless someone has a special order for the item and are perpared for its care. It makes no sense in my book to carry these. YMMV, JMO!

Ben,
I hope my response to you didn't come across the wrong way. We are discussing opinions on the ethics of keeping difficult animals, so there is no right and wrong, or scientific or non-scientific in my view, just our opinions which are all equally valid.

I have always had strong views about difficult or "expert only" animals and how to respond to questions about how to keep them. My feeling is that we should give the person the very best chances of success by supplying him with the very best husbandry advice possible. The unfortunate reality is that no amount of wishing an ill-advised purchase was made will make it so. I agree with you that it's likely the vast majority of sea apples will perish within a few months of arriving in captivity. The advice of most experienced aquarists might be something like "leave them in the ocean". While I certainly understand this sentiment, it does little to dissuade the potential buyer from purchasing the animal and certainly does not help him care for it properly after he does. There will always be a hobbyist who is determined to try keeping difficult animals despite all the advice in the world telling him otherwise; the best thing the people who have had success can do is share all the information necessary to give others the best possible chance of success. My hope is that with a better understanding of the challenges that lay ahead a person contemplating buying one will have changed their mind or at least prepared themselves better to care for the animal.

Regards,
Matt

 

[Ben1]

The unfortunate reality is that no amount of wishing an ill-advised purchase was made will make it so. I agree with you that it's likely the vast majority of sea apples will perish within a few months of arriving in captivity. The advice of most experienced aquarists might be something like "leave them in the ocean". While I certainly understand this sentiment, it does little to dissuade the potential buyer from purchasing the animal and certainly does not help him care for it properly after he does.

Sorry I get defensive pretty quick. :lol: I do agree with what you said here.

I have a larger LFS That Pet Place about an hour from me. It drives me nuts because when I go there to buy a new fish I always get the stupid questions, "how long has your tank been set up", "how large is the tank", yet someone next to me is buying a seaapple no questions asked and I just dont understand this policy, let the diffucult animals go to anyone and be protective over the clown fish. Last time I was there I was buying a crocea and the LFS guy told me "You know these need to be in the sand on the bottom of the tank since thats where they come from and shouldnt go anywhere on your live rock, do you have a sand bed to put it on?" My tank is BB, I just said yes thanks. No sense in pointing out that is not correct information. Thats kinda where me anger comes from with these sea apples. FWIW the same LFS had a large blue carpet anemone in a month ago and it made me sick to see it there. When I say large I mean huge like it filled a 40 breeder, I just dont understand why an anemone that large would be imported, I understand smaller carpets but a huge one, leave the poor thing alone.

My other LFS is only 5 minutes from me, and told me he saw that anemone at his distributors holding system a few weeks before I saw it at that pet place, but he passed on it. I guess my point is I just dont understand why certain things are imported. I know what your saying though that this type of responce does nothing to help the original posters request for info on the sea apples. Sorry for being tempermental. :lol: