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JD'sReef

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I know someone wants to given a simple explanation of this white powder? Lately I have been dripping with SeaChem dry CA buffer. I like doing this because it is easy for me to test the water on Sunday, then drip the proper amount that night.
I am also using B-Ionic, 3 days thought the week without testing (just adding). What would the added benefit be of dripping Kalk mix, rather then dosing with CA buffer after determining the PPM level.
J.

P.S. - I just found a little bit on the topic, but the questions still remain. If you have and insight, please.
Thanks
 
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Anonymous

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I was wondering what your tank's pH, kH/ALK and Ca values are now? Admittedly, I am not the sharpest tool in the shed in the chem department and have never used 2-part additives so I am interested in what others might have to say. I have always gotten the results I wanted by dosing Kalk exclusively (probably because I keep less demanding organisms). :lol: sorry...not much help but perhaps someone else will post up.
 
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SeaChem dry CA buffer? Is that exactly what it is called per the label? I can't seem to find it online. I found a few calcium supplements and a few alkalinity supplements but not a 'calcium buffer' supplement.

I used to use a two part solution like B-ionic. I later switched to an automatic top off system dosing saturated kalkwasser. IMO, easier and doesn't spike your pH the way high doses of two part as long as you're dosing the kalk through an ATO or in small dosages (I strongly prefer the ATO approach myself).

Here's a good Advanced Aquarist article on how to choose a calcium/alkalinity approach.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm
 

JD'sReef

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So as of 9/14, my readings were as follows.
KH - 9.9DKH
CA - 340PPM
PH - 8.5/8.6

Taking into consideration that I had just dosed KH in the A.M., and CA in the P.M., those are not crazy high. The KH may be a bit high, but I would rather this reading then the opposite end. I find a higher reading leads to less of a PH swing (with the MH light cycle).
Back to the question however; I may stick with the SeaChem ca additive as I have read the Kalk mix can have PH swings and that leads to my concern. I guess I should have asked what the reef will benefit from dripping Kalk, rather the my current situation with additives.
Any tips?
Lawdawg, knowing about the KH crash about a year ago, do you agree with a higher KH.
Minwoodar, isn't a CA buffer the same as a supliment. From what I gander, both powders wold add elements to the watter in an attempt to buff out the current readings. Is there something I am missing in the difference between Supplements and Buffers?
Thanks,
J.
 

JD'sReef

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Lawdawg
Hey Lawdawg,
Since you have given me good information in the past, maybe you can settle my nerves.
If I am just dosing the tanks CA, should I always dose with KH first so it stays stable? I always dose both on Sundays, but if the KH is already 9.9dkh and I need to dripp 5.1TSP of CA, should I worry about the KH dropping dangerously low with a CA change of 60PPM's.
This is kind of a hard one to write out in words!
Thanks For the Guidance.
J.
 
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I will let Lawdawg answer your questions...but I thought I should throw in my two cents....


Here's a great chemistry calculator. If you can find your product in the list, that might help the discussion.
http://jdieck1.home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chemcalc.html

The reason I am concerned...I recently bought a 'reef calcium' product by one of the major manufacturers only to find out that it contained both calcium and alkalinity. If you can find yours in the list and let us know, that may help in giving better advice. In my case (and as it appears, yours) I only needed to boost my calcium so I returned the product. If I had just gone ahead and dumped some in I would have bumped both my calcium and my alkalinity.

Kalkwasser is a balanced supplement. It will push both your calcium and alkalinity up together. It's typically not used to make adjustments to either parameter. Rather, it is intended to *maintain* your levels once you've adjusted them to where they need to be. Yes, it can spike your pH severely. IIRC, the pH is ~13 or so for a saturated solution. That's why most people just add it to their top off water and dose through and ATO matching evaporation. That will help you avoid the pH spike. A tank set up in this manner will typically run in the 8.4 to 8.5 range.

Kalk is rediculously easy, especially through and ATO, once you get the hang of it. It scared the crap out of me for years then once I gave it a shot I realized my fear was not warranted. It's probably the easiest and most cost efficient way of dosing ca/alk to your reef.

FYI - when I ran a two part solution I would often see pH spikes up to ~8.8 in my reef after dosing (40ml/day in a 65 gallon tank).
 

JD'sReef

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Nice Miwoodar!
I am all for the information on the Kalk mix but there is one hold up. My top off system is run by a pressurized RO/DI unit. To use the top off like you mentioned we be a royal pain in the back side. Also, I think that using the Kalk is a little more old school compared to my 2part B-ionic system. I feel B-ionic does the same as kalk by helping to maintain the CA/ALK balance.
By the way, what dry product buffed both your CA and ALK? That would save me a step on my Sunday drip sesion.
Thanks,
J.
 
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Sorry, I've been slammed today and had no time but I was just going to post that miwoodar covered it far better than I could :oops:
 
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Anonymous

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LD, I think you're buffering (ha-ha) me up. Glad I could help. The product I came home with was Tropic Marin Bio-Calcium Powder. Check out the warning Jose's calculator gives. I gotta hand it to him, that calculator is awesome to have/use.

B-ionic is certainly a fine product and I wouldn't recommend against it. You have a good approach but I think everyone in the thread would agree that the calcium could be a little higher. Alk is good IMO. Kalk really is *very* easy though as long as it's set up correctly. Old school? Or time tested? Go with your gut on a decision like this. If you decide to try kalk - might you be able to plumb your RO/DI to a top off container then go through a Nielson reactor to the sump? A DIY reactor could be made out of PVC and an old powerhead for ~$50 or so. The part that I never grasped until I did it was that most tanks just set it up to match the evaporation rate and so the ca/alk ends up being self-maintaining. That's the part that makes it sooooo easy. No more Sunday dosing unless you have a lot of large, fast growing SPS.

Have you ever read this article? I've read two stories of mishaps with direct feed RO/DI setups this week. :( Not telling you to change your approach, just making sure you have your bases covered.
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-05/ml/index.php

Steve Weast's tank crashed this way...but he had his skimmer cup set up to drain directly to his sewer line. It all went down after he cleaned his skimmer pumps before leaving for work. 200 gallons of skimmer water went down the drain before he returned home to realize what had happened. http://www.oregonreef.com/sub_aquascaping.htm

FYI - I eventually went to a calcium reactor after my growth outpaced saturated kalkwasser. I didn't like the low pH though (typically 7.6 in the am and peaks of ~7.9 to 8.0 in the evenings) so I'm now dosing dilute kalkwasser (two teaspoons / 5 gal) to keep my pH in the 8.0 to 8.1 range.
 

JD'sReef

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Wow, I think I am in over my head here. I consider my self to be advanced as I know what levels to have and how to obtain them but you are all leading me to a new level.
Miwoodar - I am using a LLC and also have a float valve on the output into the sump; stil sketchy in your eyes?
Let me read some of the articles and the fill you all back in.
Thanks for pondering.
J.
 
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Anonymous

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JD'sReef":1t12a1kh said:
I know someone wants to given a simple explanation of this white powder? Lately I have been dripping with SeaChem dry CA buffer. I like doing this because it is easy for me to test the water on Sunday, then drip the proper amount that night.
I am also using B-Ionic, 3 days thought the week without testing (just adding). What would the added benefit be of dripping Kalk mix, rather then dosing with CA buffer after determining the PPM level.
J.

P.S. - I just found a little bit on the topic, but the questions still remain. If you have and insight, please.
Thanks

kalk (calcium hydoxide) should take care of both alk and ca by itself-the same should be true with b-ionic

i'd recommend using the b-ionic daily, per the directions, using a pH monitor to aid in determining your system's particular dosage

b-ionic is more cost effective on smaller volume tanks (<75gal)

kalk has some limitations-you can ONLY use it to replace topoff-otherwise you run a greater risk of screwing up the proportional balance between ca and alk-there's also the issue of how concentrated/strong a kalk mix to use-if your a beginner w/kalk, ALWAYS start out 'light'-mebbe 1/2-3/4 tsp/gallon of evap make up water

add too much kalk-you can crash your tank, and it's prob'ly easier to do that than w/a 2 parter

always add the alk component first, then the ca component-i'd recommend not waiting more than 1/2 hour to add part2-what's the sense of raising the alk without balancing it out w/the ca quickly? raising just one won't enable corals etc to use the other efficiently-they should stay in balance as often as possible

your alk could rise a tad, as can your ca

i'd recommend that until you read up abit more on kalk (TONS of great articles on both rdo's and rc's online mags-), that you try dosing w/the ionic daily -simply because of the inherent dangers of improper kalk dosing

fwiw, i've been dosing my tank in the early morning before lights on, and after lights out, w/about 15cc of each, on a system of about 40 gal in net volume, and i'll be upping it this week to one shot of about 25 cc's at nite along w/the present 15cc's in the am-the tank started out with about 5 cc's of each-as demand increased (more corals, more coralline) the dose increased ;)

my pH hits 8.48-8.5 right after the dose, and drops to 8.42 after about an hour-a few hours later and it 'stabilizes' to about 8.3

the swings will lessen as the 'reserves' stabilize in the system, IF the dosing regimen is constant and frequent

nothing should ever be added without some type of monitoring of parameters, even if it's only pH

try 1/2 of the b-ionic dose you do 3x/week, done daily, with nothing else-see what your levels are after a week, if the ca and alk are still a tad low, increase the dose in 5cc increments for both parts, check again in a week, etc etc ;)

if, aftera month, the levels andthe pH aren'tdrfting up to where you want them, try kalk-but i wouldn't mix both methods-too much poential for screwing up the balance

the parameters of the water you use for wc's should also be corrected/tested BEFORE being added to the system-there's no sense to keeping the system where it should be, only to skew it with a water change ;)

slightly low levels of both alk and ca isn't nearly as bad as having the incorrect proprtions of each in the water column

keeping an appropriate Mg level will also help to keep the ca from dropping (as) quickly-coralline, for example, LOVES Mg, but will use Ca at a greater rate if the Mg level is low (as a 'substitute')

keep the changing demand factor in mind ;)

having said all that-i don't test for alk, or ca, or mag-i use a salt that i've found to be fairly consistent with excellent alk/ca/mag levels over the years (mei's 'crystal sea'-we go through pallets of the stuff weekly at work), and i use just pH and the visual response of the tank as the indicators for the b-ionic dosing-after awhile you will be able to tell when (even) the coralline is 'happy' with what you're doing :)

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/sea...sort_order=normal&Subject=Randy+Holmes-Farley
 

JD'sReef

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So I am going to try your suggested method of using Kalk for my top off system. Do you have any suggestions for mixing this stuff up? I would like to find a jug/bottle that will let the sediment settle to the bottom so
I can pore out the clean mix from the top with no fuss.
I am going to try 1/2 TSP of the mixture and use it as top off water. I will unhook the RODI form the LLC and use a non pressurized external tank, elevated above the sump for my top off resivor. This will kill two birds with one stone as it was also suggested that having the RODI hooked directly to the top off system is a sketchy deal.
Do I need to worry that the LLC is not going to DRIP the KALK mixture in? When the sump needs water the LLC will open the valve up and permit KALK to enter the tank, should I use a valve so the water drips slowly?
Also, how much water should I be mixing with 1/2tsp of KALK? Maybe the back of the container will say.
Here goes !
J.
 
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Anonymous

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I think kalk saturates around 2 teaspoons/gallon. I like your idea to mix it extra weak until you feel comfortable about it.

LLC - apparently I can't brain today. What does LLC stand for?

I use a 5 gallon gas can with a piece of rigid air line tubing that reaches the bottom. At the tip I have one of the blue plastic tees so the siphon can't pull out the precipitate or undissolved kalk slurry (whichever is the case at that point in time). As long as you don't agitate the bottle, the kalk solution will stay strong until it is used.
 

JD'sReef

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LLC is "Liquid Level Controller"
So I am doing as I said and using kalk mix rather then straight RODI water. My PH today was @ 8.3/8.5 and that seemed about right to me. If I am only dripping the tank "at top off time" with a 1/2TSP mix of KALK mix, should I worry about my CA/Alk balance. Miwoodar you said Kalk mix will increase my ALK and CA correct? My readings are fine right now, and I want to let them go till sunday and then compare my test results from yesterday.
I am going to take some new test again tonight as I was told that I am waiting to long for the color change. From what i understand, I only need the initial change, not a clear blue color. (Salfert CA test).
I will post soon!
Cheers,
J.
 

JD'sReef

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Also,
So I am using a 1/2 TSP (teaspoon) in my top off water right now, but how will I know when to jump up to 1TBL spoon. Logic would tell me to check the levels i a few days and adjust accordingly, but I must add addatives first to get the CA and ALK levels back up to where I want them, before using the KALK mix.
And, how will I know when to much KALK (causing a tank crash) in being added to the top off?
Do the parameters go all wacky (PH spikes) when I am dosing to much KALK while not enough is being consumed?
Thanks, for helping me take this tank to the next level.
 
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Going higher than ~2teaspoons/gal is needless since the water will saturate at that point. Many people do it though with the intention of banking unused CaOH in the bottom of their top off reservoir.

Just weekly testing should be fine. Test, adjust your parameters back up if necessary, then decide if you want to make your kalk solution stronger for the next week. I think you'll find the balance rather fast.

The dreaded tank crash due to high pH can only occur if you put in too much solution in too short of time. An example...you are away for the weekend and your top off reservoir has been empty for a couple of days. Your sump is now, let's say, 5 gallons lower than normal. You mix up a batch of kalk and let all 5 gallons go at once and you get a pH spike. To avoid this, try to not let your top off reservoir go totally empty. If you do, and it happens to all of us from time to time, go ahead and top off with fresh water before going back to your kalk solution.
 

JD'sReef

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I follow you on this advice. Even before I was using KALK, I would not spike the CA or ALK when I got home from a trip. The current 5 gallon jug of top off mix should last about a week.
Thanks,
J.
 

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