There's a discussion going on in #reefs now about hobbyists' impact on natural reefs. The general consensus is hobbyist will buy what's cheap, and wild-collected is cheap. It's got me thinking why are frags so expensive; Is there simply no demand for cheap frags? How do you think we can work to bring down the prices and encourage less collection of wild coral and more aquacultured/farmed?
Are frags overpriced?
- Thread starter Len
- Start date
People still use #reefs, I gotta check it out lol. Anyhow my LPS tank is 100% captive frags, my sons 29 gal is 100% captive frags, and my 58 sps tank is atleast 90% captive frags, it has one maricultured piece....all the captive frags came from other reefers, or ORA.
Besides LR and some of the fish, I dont see a reason to buy a wild piece unless it is extremely unique or not yet in the hobby.
Besides LR and some of the fish, I dont see a reason to buy a wild piece unless it is extremely unique or not yet in the hobby.
Myself I try to sell manly captive raised frags. Lots of locals and lots of FHI, ORA is to expensive for most people in my opinion. It is hard to sell a frag for $60-$70, when they can find a wild caught colony for the same price and it is 2 to 3 times bigger.
I will agree that hobbiest will purchase what is cheaper, not what is better most of the time. But I personally do not think that this is as bad for the wild reefs as most people think. The local (collectors) understand that the live reefs are worth money. When the don't protect the reefs, they loose there income.
Kim
I will agree that hobbiest will purchase what is cheaper, not what is better most of the time. But I personally do not think that this is as bad for the wild reefs as most people think. The local (collectors) understand that the live reefs are worth money. When the don't protect the reefs, they loose there income.
Kim
I have heard many stories of a hobbyist trying to start a "coral farm" for profit. Usually a crude business plan is put together, and then you never hear anything about it. I'm sure the expenses usually far outweigh any profit.
You would think as long as the coral can be imported for less than it cost to aquaculture, the trade will never stop until more restictions are put on the natural coral. or maybe some government benefits to coral farms??
Maybe in the future with LED technology and other ways to grow the stuff for less money, the price of aquacultured will be more attractive to the bulk of hobbyist.
Adding another whole twist to the thing... Does the careful harvest of wild coral generate capital to help the preservation of the reefs? I was talking to my LFS about one of his suppliers from Australia. According to him, the harvest of the coral is very restricted and taxed. It seems they may care about the reefs as much as we do.
The scary part is the reefs may be gone by 2050. Having said that, wouldn't it make sense to get as much live coral out of the ocean and into captivity??
You would think as long as the coral can be imported for less than it cost to aquaculture, the trade will never stop until more restictions are put on the natural coral. or maybe some government benefits to coral farms??
Maybe in the future with LED technology and other ways to grow the stuff for less money, the price of aquacultured will be more attractive to the bulk of hobbyist.
Adding another whole twist to the thing... Does the careful harvest of wild coral generate capital to help the preservation of the reefs? I was talking to my LFS about one of his suppliers from Australia. According to him, the harvest of the coral is very restricted and taxed. It seems they may care about the reefs as much as we do.
The scary part is the reefs may be gone by 2050. Having said that, wouldn't it make sense to get as much live coral out of the ocean and into captivity??
I like to think of it this way : If you buy a whole colony then your tank is all set up. What's the fun in that? I like to grow my coral from scratch. So, I really don't mind buying expensive frags. The more money they are, the more exited I get to have it.
Well when i buy my SPS frags from other reefers I am not paying ORA prices, most of the time $10-$30 depending on the frag. Some slower growing SPS deserve the higher pricing. An Ice fire echinata or a true purple monster for instance.
BTW I forgot about some of my Acan colonys I bought, I guess I am guilty on those.
Reef clubs seem to have the upperhand on passing out free or cheap frags, like the pay it foward program Mike mentioned to me once, or my local club has a coral donor program where you get a free frag, grow it, frag it, and pass it to the next two on the waiting list.
Seems to me most reefers are short time reefers, they get into it for a few years and then lose interest. They let their tanks turn to swamps the corals all die and they get out. The percentage of corals the get into good reefers hands, grow out, get fragged and passed around must be a very small amount of what comes in. Theres some people who still see corals as a never ending resource, who buy corals and just keep replacing them as they die, and eventually get out.
IDK but there will always be a coral trade for wild stuff, and as far as coral farms being able to sell frags cheap and also profit, it just doesnt seem to happen unless the scale is large enough. I know my LFS that carrys ORA post on the reefclub forums and takes preorders before booking his order so he can just get in what he can sell and doesnt have to sit on expensive stuff.
I just want to register a LLC or something so when I sell my frags grown from my mother colonys in my tank I can write off my tank expences (bulb changes, salt etc.) as a business expence lol. J/K of course...
BTW I forgot about some of my Acan colonys I bought, I guess I am guilty on those.
Reef clubs seem to have the upperhand on passing out free or cheap frags, like the pay it foward program Mike mentioned to me once, or my local club has a coral donor program where you get a free frag, grow it, frag it, and pass it to the next two on the waiting list.
Seems to me most reefers are short time reefers, they get into it for a few years and then lose interest. They let their tanks turn to swamps the corals all die and they get out. The percentage of corals the get into good reefers hands, grow out, get fragged and passed around must be a very small amount of what comes in. Theres some people who still see corals as a never ending resource, who buy corals and just keep replacing them as they die, and eventually get out.
IDK but there will always be a coral trade for wild stuff, and as far as coral farms being able to sell frags cheap and also profit, it just doesnt seem to happen unless the scale is large enough. I know my LFS that carrys ORA post on the reefclub forums and takes preorders before booking his order so he can just get in what he can sell and doesnt have to sit on expensive stuff.
I just want to register a LLC or something so when I sell my frags grown from my mother colonys in my tank I can write off my tank expences (bulb changes, salt etc.) as a business expence lol. J/K of course...
It is all demand and supply. The supply of wild frags is a lot more than the supply of cultured frags. The demand for the two different types are not portional to its supply. Think of frags as organic tomatoes, or wild-ranged brown chicken eggs. Most consumers don't really see the difference when they pay 2X or 3X the price, even may end up with something that is cosmetically inferior.
If organic produce is profitable, all the farmers would have converted already. There is a certain overhead associated with organic or cultured frag that make it not competitive. We need to wait until some other non-capitalist forces, such as near-extinct of wild corals (ecological), export control (social/political), etc., to make a shift in the price of the wild specimen, or a break-thru in the mariculture of the frag (technological) that lower the price.
If organic produce is profitable, all the farmers would have converted already. There is a certain overhead associated with organic or cultured frag that make it not competitive. We need to wait until some other non-capitalist forces, such as near-extinct of wild corals (ecological), export control (social/political), etc., to make a shift in the price of the wild specimen, or a break-thru in the mariculture of the frag (technological) that lower the price.
Len":301p84nr said:
Most of the time yes. Even hobbyists in the know will often buy WC at shady stores because its cheap and instant.
There is demand for cheap frags, there is just no profit in cheap frags - there just is no culture facility reaching the economy of scale needed to drop the price.
I don't think there really is any practical way to do this. Even if there was a facility that hit an economy of scale, why drop the prices if people are willing to pay more? While at the same time, wild coral has the economy of scale already. The only think I can think of to do is to convince people that they should be dealing in captive cultured animals, though I am not sure how to do this on a large scale.
I would like to see the prices of wild animals go way up. Perhaps the new import fees will help this happen.
Doubtful, the fee isn't that big. They're whining over a doubling of a super cheap fee :roll:
ORA used to sell common digitata (IIRC) but I haven't seen it on the market in a while (not they they don't sell it, I just don't see it). LA sells common captive corals and they seem to have the demand. I think the problem is people shoot for the moon when setting up farms The 104th guys all have said they'd buy common captive stuff but from what I hear no one could step up with a consistent supply which is what is required.
ORA used to sell common digitata (IIRC) but I haven't seen it on the market in a while (not they they don't sell it, I just don't see it). LA sells common captive corals and they seem to have the demand. I think the problem is people shoot for the moon when setting up farms
The 104th guys all have said they'd buy common captive stuff but from what I hear no one could step up with a consistent supply which is what is required.I don't think I'd mind that wild stuff cost more, but ONLY if that "more" went to the right people, like the divers who get them, NOT the wholesalers who sell them to the LFS, and definitely not the LFS who sell them.
Problem is if you double fees given to divers, then that doubled price will follow all the way to the consumer because everyone still wants to get their same percentage of profit.
Problem is if you double fees given to divers, then that doubled price will follow all the way to the consumer because everyone still wants to get their same percentage of profit.
Anyone on here have/care to share the knowledge of the profit distibution of a piece of coral? Ex: $50 SPS colony removed from the wild, $1 to diver, 20 to wholesaler, 29 to LFS. ??
As opposed to Frags, $50 directly to LFS. (If they frag their own like my LFS used to.) He'd frag a montipora off of his huge colony and charge like 30 bucks for it.
As opposed to Frags, $50 directly to LFS. (If they frag their own like my LFS used to.) He'd frag a montipora off of his huge colony and charge like 30 bucks for it.
IIRC a lot of that money does go to the airlines, however I seem to recall quite the wage disparity between the guys who risk their lives getting corals, and the guys who own the land to hold them temporarily before they get shipped out. At least of the wild caught stuff.
For local stuff? Can't really say, I mean you're paying for the shipping costs up front and it's very transparent what that cost is. For local frags you're paying for a fancy name the owner puts on the coral, a great story behind it sometimes, and often (unfortunately) their photoshop skills.
For local stuff? Can't really say, I mean you're paying for the shipping costs up front and it's very transparent what that cost is. For local frags you're paying for a fancy name the owner puts on the coral, a great story behind it sometimes, and often (unfortunately) their photoshop skills.
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