Thinking of a Moorish Idol

[Anonymous]

For those that don't know, I'm pretty conservative with my fish these days. I gave up on 'difficult' fish many years ago. I didn't like taking them out of the ocean, wasting my money, wasting my time, and wasting my attention. Beyond that, most of my current fish were actually purchased used from other reefers. I like the surety of proven fish and I like the fact that they are usually cheaper than stuff at the LFS. IIRC, the last fish I lost was over two years ago(CBB). Given that, I'm lucky to get one fish a year and I've been waiting with a very short list of options for some time now.

So here goes...I'm checking out a 4" Moorish Idol tonight. The owner has had it for 6 months. He says the fish is healthy but needs a new home (currently in a tank with a semi-adult emperor angel that has started to harrass it). He wants $80. I have some pigs but none of them have ever shown interest in pellets - I figured that I would try the PaulB dish method so he wouldn't be in full competition with the other fish. Should I give it a shot? This would likely be the last major fish to go in the tank.

My current stocking list includes the following:
* 4" purple tang (the faded patches were apparently nothing BTW)
* 4" regal tang
* 3" flame angel
* 2.5" 6-line
* 5" watchman goby (never see him)
* 2" scooter

The tank is a 140 cube. Plenty of flow. Mixed corals (a little of everything).

 

[Anonymous]

Also, the rockwork in the cube is fully supported by a hidden PVC structure. Fish can swim mostly unobstructed from end to end under the rockwork. As such, even though my fish are almost always 'out', I typically only see one or two fish at a time. People who see my tank are often surprised (to my suprise) by my apparent lack of fish.

 

[Anonymous]

What's my purple tang going to think of the new guy? Is he going to think 'tang, kill him' or is he going to leave the new guy alone?

 

[Anonymous]

Well, not many people have been brave enough to try an Idol and, of those, I'm guessing most haven't been successful. :wink:

The sound of crickets can be quite soothing.

 

[Anonymous]

Its hard to tell what the other fishes reaction is going to be to a MI, so you'll have to see. If it is already eating, thats good, and it shouldn't be a problem getting food with the other fishes.

The issue with MI is, even if you get them eating, fat and sassy, that sometimes the drop dead anyway. Cool fish. Sad when they die.

 

[Anonymous]

Agreed, it sucks losing fish. That's why I stopped trying to keep anything challenging. Brave? Or stupid? :lol: If he looks really good I think I'll be giving him a go. I've too have seen a number of people say that they can just die for no apparent reason though. Any thoughts on this? Many people seem to speculate it's a nutrient problem. Seems plausible but possibly a witch hunt. If he doesn't make it I doubt I'll ever try another one (this will be my first BTW).

 

[Anonymous]

I for one don't think it's solely a nutrition issue. It seems fairly easy to get MIs to eat just about anything. One of the things I dread reading is when somebody is amazed that an MI is eating at their LFS so therefore it must be "over the hurdle" and should be purchased. It would be nice (if only we had time...) to do blood work and/or necropsies on MIs that have died after "doing well" for a year or two and see if anything is noteworthy.

My best guess is that MIs are just very very susceptible to chronic stress that most fish are able to tolerate a bit better. They don't seem to do well long term in large tanks with other boisterous fish. You may not see outright warfare but there will likely be a constant level of stress on the MI that's avoidable. My feeling is that to do well they need to be "king" of the tank--housed with small peaceful fish that won't harass it. One thing that seems to be a constant in nearly every tank I've seen with an MI is that it's with tangs and/or large angels.

 

[Anonymous]

...

 

[Anonymous]

:lol: Very funny.

FWIW, I passed on the MI. The fish looked very pinched. He's going to be seeing the reaper soon. The owner was confident the fish was going to fatten up as soon as it had a new home. Hmmm.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm frankly surprised you were even contemplating it.

 

[Ben1]

I saw a Labroides phthirophagus at my LFS today. He was 69.99 and 20% off but I wasnt sure how easy they were to keep so I passed. I would love a moorish idol too, but its on my do not buy list, I don't see to many lasting long.

 

[Anonymous]

They should be left in the ocean, along with a pretty lengthy list of other fish.

 

[Anonymous]

They should be left in the ocean, along with a pretty lengthy list of other fish.

I think this is the wrong way to think about it.

I think their collection should be smarter for the few people willing to give it a real go, but not for the impulse buyers. I think this should be the case for many fish and inverts.

 

[Anonymous]

They tend to die just as readily for the researched and impulse buyer alike.
You can collect 20 a year, and 18 of them are going to die...still not worth collecting them.

There are enough attractive, hardy fish that adapt readily to captivity with minimal losses...no need to mess with very difficult or almost impossible species. They're further collection is patently immoral in my opinion. I can make a strong argument that the mortality rate of such fish as the Powder Blue tang is high enough that they should be left where they are, let alone species like the Moorish Idol or Larvatus butterfly fish that sport even higher, almost 100% mortality rates.

I respect where you're coming from, I just disagree.
I could type for a while on how we're already subjugating the species that live, that's bad enough really....at least leave the ones that almost always die on the reef.
The hobby needs to move to a space of sustainability, captive production, zero or at least minimal impact... further collecting of such species is if nothing else, irresponsible IMHO.

 

[Anonymous]

I get you. I guess I just don't like the idea that animals should be uncollectable. I think they should be responsibly collected and cared for at the end of the COC.
If these fish can be sustainability and responsibly collected I don't have a problem with it. So if the MI population is not under duress, I have no problem with some people trying them. The problem is that this is completely impossible given the current COC. The whole acro argument is really compelling for me as is the cuttlefish argument - both were considered unkeepable, but are now very keepable and would not have been if not for hobbyists. Heck, orange spot file fish are not only being kept and weaned onto easy foods, but they have been successfully captive bred, but are generally though of in the same realm as MI's.
I like this kind of discussion. Both of us have a dream that is almost the same, but equally as far from becoming reality.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not surprised I passed on it. I've been a conservative buyer for more than a decade now. I was a blubbering idiot who would buy anything for the first few years I was in the hobby though (despite working at an LFS and reading every book on their shelves). I would love to have an MI someday - it most certainly will not be a fresh import though. I'm willing to wait until a successful one becomes available. My short list of fish also includes a regal angel...another fish that I am not willing to buy fresh. I can wait until somebody needs to break down their tank.

I'm going to have to side with Thales on the import-or-not debate. Plenty of fish and corals that were once considered impossible can now be considered to have reasonably high success rates. What if we had stopped importing some of these animals before their tricks were discovered? The list of untouchables would be huuuugggggeeee.

I would put corals in a stand-alone discussion since so many are being propagated these days. We're to the point that you could build an entire tank out of corals whose lineage goes back many years in hobby tanks. Savvy reefers could limit their purchases to proven lineages quite easily (there are at least a half dozen cut throat sellers on Craigslist in Denver selling just about anything you'll find on the web). My tank has only two corals that came from a box and those were the first two corals I bought after getting back into the hobby following a two year hiatus. All of the others were aquired as frags from fellow reefers. I am very surprised every time I come across the stats of import vs captive propagation on corals. One would think that people would strongly prefer the latter. The numbers are still very heavily skewed towards imports though. :roll:

Fish - I wish we were at a point that fish were being captive bred in significant quantities and varieties. It's a real shame that so few fish live any length of time in our tanks. Success rates are in fact dismal on ALL fish once the view is expanded to encompass an ocean-to-tank perspective. Even fish that we *know* will live as we happily drive home from the LFS may already be the last alive out of 10 that left the ocean in the first place. (Does that make sense the way I wrote it?) The boxes and boxes that arrive at the LFS are already the 'survivors'. The majority already perished somewhere en route.

Lastly, we tend to think of reefers/FOWLERS/FO/etc as the folks we chat with here on the web. The majority of hobbyists are not on the web though - plenty of folks are just going to the store and impulse buying whatever suits their fancy without doing any research first. Should they be allowed to buy a doomed fish? I'm going to have to say yes as long as the fishery is fully sustainable. Should they buy it? Absolutely not. Many of the people here on RDO have been in the hobby long enough that we could reasonably claim that we have the right to try these fish. I'm not headed that route at all and I don't get a sense that y'all are either. The more I know the more I typically move away from the difficult fish. I wish the Joe Blows would let the challenging fish go to those with a gifted skill set. LFS-to-hobbyist education is key to this.

BTW - I'm still an idiot. I picked up a tang from the guy who was selling the MI. I'll tell you what kind but you're going to have to guess first - I'm feeling somewhat a fool right now. I've already lined up a potential long-term home through a local service company. The fish will likely end up in a 900 FO. Anyone care to guess what 2.5" tang would go into my tank of long established fish and immediately dominate them dispite being less than half the length of the others in the community? He/she is literally chasing my purple tang, flame angel, and regal tang around the tank. My 6-line is terrified.

Damn, my fingers hurt now.

 

[Anonymous]

Good post Miwoodar. I can't resist guessing - did you give in to a Clown Tang?

 

[liquid]

Good article on Moorish Idols:

Aquarium Fish: Reefkeeping Idol: The family Zanclidae
Moorish Idols are very difficult to maintain long term in the home aquarium.
By Henry C. Schultz
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/8/fish

Shane

 

[Anonymous]

Ding ding ding! Damn, you're good - on the very first guess. Yes, a 2.5" clown tang. I've had car keys as big as this guy. I watched it for a half and hour before deciding to bring it home. It looked to be far down in the hierarchy within 110 it came from. The imperator was king. It was picking for scraps of power along with about a half dozen other fish (MI, yellow tang, humu-humu, large damsel, unicorn tang, others) and didn't seem to have a mean streak at all. I was aware that it would be a contender in my tank within the next year or two and I might have to relocate it eventually. It went into my tank much to the dismay of my purple tang and flame angel. They initially beat on it as expected. Within a few hours though it was actively hunting them out looking to square off.

The next owner told me a story of a local guy with a 1000+ reef. The guy wants to find a new home for his 5" clown tang. Apparently it is fully dominant over his entire fish collection which includes a 6" sohal and at least a dozen full adult tangs. The clown even attacks his hand any time he puts his arms in the tank.

I've never used the mirror against the tank trick before. Brilliant. I'm going to use it from now on. All of my fish are lining up to get a chance to beat up the fish in the mirror - even the clown.

Thanks for the link on the MI article. I doubt I'll ever own one and I'm fine with that.

 

[Anonymous]

You know, Mike, you could grow it out and make it dinner. I hear tang is very good eating.