Inconvenient Truth (not the movie)

[fritz]

My name is Fred, and I'm an addict.......(to reefkeeping)

Patrick Donston, the owner of Absolutely Fish in NJ does a great presentation and if you ever get the chance to see him speak you should go. He often speaks of the impact our hobby has on the natural habitat of these animals. He does the usual, don't buy Bali etc and plugs his store and their practices but it got me thinking. Actually it got my wife thinking.

We just came back from St. John's where we went to Trunk Bay in the US National Park at USVI. They have an underwater trail at Trunk Bay that was some of the best snorkeling I've done, Cozumel included. You can go off the trail and around some rocks to find Elkhorn corals larger than I am. There are also some Monti caps that are a good 10 feet across and 5 or 6 feet high.

Anyhow seeing this REALLY made me want to setup a Caribbean tank. It had the opposite reaction for my wife though. It made her feel bad about keeping these fish in such a small area. I said "we'll get a 250!", "but still" she said. "For the cost of running a 250 we could take two vacations like this a year, to Fiji". She did have a point.

Having kept fish for the last 20 years, 2/3 of my life I truly miss having a tank in the house. I thought about setting up a 180 with cichlids or even a freshwater tank for my son's benefit. I just looked over some pics of my 58 gallon and I feel "the bug" again. Seeing some of those sps makes me feel like setting up a 120....today.

The reality though is that some schmuck will come over, go oooh ahhh and go to his LFS and buy a 55 gallon tank with four tangs, two green mandarins, a few clownfish etc etc. Or worse his kids will get "the bug" and years from now they will travel down this road we all love and hate.

So now I'm at a cross roads. The color, shape and pure awe of salt water can't be matched in freshwater. The joy I get from these tanks can't be matched. It would be better though to take the money spent on a reef ($1200-$2500 a year conservatively) and spend it on a neat scuba vacation. I could run a 250 freshwater tank for practically nothing and still have a tank in the house.

I guess I'm asking myself "How much do I love this hobby?" Enough to leave these animals where they belong? Am I the kid that nurses a wounded animal back to health but can't set it free? I keep thinking of the corals down in the Caribbean. They are in BAD shape. Most of them are 80% dead and the mass bleaching that was in the news is not exaggerated. Their reefs are pretty torn up. There's a bacterial infection that has devastated most of them and some commercial aquariums and organizations have begun transplanting healthy corals to damaged areas. Our hobby, as much as we like to think it helps isn't helping.

I spoke to a guy before we left that used to do some transshipping and then some farming. He left the hobby years ago. He said that for every fish that arrives in a store, 10 died. Most stores have some dead fish in the tanks which doesn't make that number much better. It's true we've gotten better at transshipping since he was in the business but not much.

In any event, I'll be trading in some Salt water and reef gear in for Freshwater stuff in the FT forum. My best to you all, good luck with your addiction. I'm going clean, see you in the FW forums.

 

[grundig5]

I agree with you on many aspects and really think moving away from reefkeeping could be up the road for me. Not because I dont like it, or i'm burnted out, or because its too much work and money, but I constantly struggle with my views on animal rights. I started in the hobby awhile before my current views came to shape, and I feel kind of stuck now. But I am helplessly addicted, and very much financially strapped into it...I peruse the responsible reefkeeping forum more and more on RC.

 

[Wes]

you can do a strictly aquacultured tank w/ Marco rocks, aquacultured corals, and tank raised fish...Just another idea for you to ponder

 

[Aqua Pro Builder]

When you are ready, I am trading you some FW frys.

The mortality rate is much better that what the told you nowadays but STILL not good enough.

Well, many of s are addicts and just cannot say much.:shhh:

 

[vanceny]

We'll said. I really don't think that its right to keep any fish in a tank regardless of size. I just can't help it. With all of the comparisons of a person living in a closet, it is no better to be stuck in a 1000sq ft apartment either. I still keep fish but for everyone that believes that they are doing something righteous should think about it.
This is a hobby in which we are keeping live animals in an enclosed system. No matter how good your husbandry and the size of most tanks that we keep, is the fish better off in the ocean?

 

[Wes]

is the fish better off in the ocean?

it's hard to say. You can keep a fish for 20 yrs in a home aquarium if done right. You could have saved that fish from getting eaten by one of MANY natural predators in the ocean.

 

[grundig5]

it's hard to say. You can keep a fish for 20 yrs in a home aquarium if done right. You could have saved that fish from getting eaten by one of MANY natural predators in the ocean.

While this may be true, how many fish died unneccesarily due to any number of collection/shipping/other stress factors to get that 1 fish into the aquarium in the first place?
Is FW that much better in terms of mortality rates? I dont know anything about FW.

 

[vanceny]

it's hard to say. You can keep a fish for 20 yrs in a home aquarium if done right.

I still dont believe that the fish is better off in a tank. It's also not the norm that someone keeps them that long. Keeping them alive, is that the guideline for a happy fish?

I could probably live in my apartment my entire life but that doesn't mean I'd be happy.

 

[adamrose]

you'll be back.

I'm giving you 6 months until you drill that massive FW tank and reef it.




Like some other's said, get ORA or Aquacultured corals (just buy off fellow reefers) - and get tank raised fish, and you should be able to live with a relatively clean conscience (but still less money for diving trips).

 

[Wes]

I still dont believe that the fish is better off in a tank. It's also not the norm that someone keeps them that long. Keeping them alive, is that the guideline for a happy fish?

I could probably live in my apartment my entire life but that doesn't mean I'd be happy.

I don't think fish ever feel happy or sad.

 

[jf2381]

Fred I'm with you on this one. I had 30 cichlids African cichlid tanks running at one point and the expense didn't add up to the expense of my reef.
You can have a awesome cichlid tank. Ask rstimeout to post pictures of his 240 cichlid tank.
Even thought I just re-setup my reef 4 months ago I have been thinking of tearing it down and going with a 180 cichlid tank.

 

[dannyl]

I agree with everything everyone says and like you mention this is a hobby. A hobby that we take full responsibilty on giving the best care to our corals and fish. Now like you mention are they better of in the ocean? Are they better of in your tank. From what I seen in MR from pictures you provide and so fourth they trully look happy where they are in the tank. Thats enough for me to continue this hobby.

 

[Pinkheine]

Everything we do daily has an impact on the environment, mostly in negative ways. It is a personal decision to continue to do certain things... being human we are all selfish by nature.

I think that if one does choose to keep fish, or any living creature for that matter, they should do the best they can for them. Does that mean they would be better off not in a fish tank and in the ocean?

Some will say yes, others will say no. Just like everything pros and cons. Weigh them all and make a determination that you can live with. I would like to hope that with all the things that every hobbiest learns daily that eventually it all will balance out. Or that at some point there will be a clearly defined line of right and wrong... this way we all can enjoy a guilt free hobby experience.

 

[vanceny]

I think that if one does choose to keep fish, or any living creature for that matter, they should do the best they can for them. Does that mean they would be better off not in a fish tank and in the ocean?

Some will say yes, others will say no. Just like everything pros and cons. Weigh them all and make a determination that you can live with. I would like to hope that with all the things that every hobbiest learns daily that eventually it all will balance out. Or that at some point there will be a clearly defined line of right and wrong... this way we all can enjoy a guilt free hobby experience.

Agreed! So for the poster on the other thread who put a fish in a 1 gallon tank, although I do not agree with him, are we much better then him?

 

[Killerdrgn]

There are degrees of betterness. putting fish in a 1 gallon is worse than putting them in a 90 which is worse than in a 400 gallon which is worse than the ocean.

 

[NYreefNoob]

ya know what cracks me up the most when people getting to talking about this and how it damages the ref's and ect, why dont people look at a bigger picture and quit driving car's because of what it does to the atmosphere, and everything e lse that takes a far worse effect on earth. not looking to start nothing, but this is a hobby and when people get to saying poor fish and ect, and still have a tank is azz backwards to me. as other's have stated you can create a complete reef with stuff thats been agricultured. this hobby isnt a privilage, it's a privilage if you can afford it. and fritz i contiplated going back to african cichlads but knew thats i would come right back to saltwater. as much as i want to tear my tank down i wouldnt do it if i thought id ever want to set one up again

 

[fritz]

I didn't mean for this to be a "holier than thou" kind of thing. I've flushed plenty of fish in my life. I through a bucket of corals out in my backyard once. This thread was more from two observations I made:

1. I chased a dwarf angel for 60 feet. I followed most every single fish I came across for at least 30 yards. The fish I watched, from small to large, explored an area the size of a football field over the course of 30 minutes. I can't look at fish in a 180 without thinking about that.

2. I spend thousands of dollars a year on my tank and so do you. I would rather take my family to where these animals live once or twice a year with that money. As cool as a tank full of tangs is, it's got nothing on chasing one through open water. I'm willing to trade having an sps tank in my home if it means that once or twice a year I can swim with some sps corals the size of my car.

These are my observations and my feelings from those observations. I don't expect others to share those opinions but I thought I'd share them. I'm sharing them because even though I'll miss the tank, I'm happy and excited at the realization of exactly how much money I've been spending on this and what that same amount of money translates to in dive trips.

 

[inkblue]

heaR hear fRed

great toPic !

 

[lanacane214]

wow!!!:splitspin a human comparing himself to a fish!!,if you feel bad about keeping fish you must feel bad about eating them too.or eating any type of meat.im an addict and i am proud of keeping fish(i eat fish too)if you look close the fish is smiling:biggrin::biggrin:

 

[jejton]

To start off with a disclaimer, I have been keeping all sorts of animals for many years so this is not me on a soapbox.
Fritz- even if you can't go scuba diving every month, for the price of one SPS frag you can by a family membership to some wonderful aquariums within driving distance - Mystic, Atlantis, Brooklyn ( ok so thats not too great but they are improving ), etc.
OTOH - Does our hobby impact the wild environment? Sure does. Is it high up on this list? Probably not, at least compared to all the pollution, overharvesting ( for consumption ) and development does. Does the hobby come with responsibilities? Sure does. You have the obligation to only keep animals for which you can properly care and humanely keep. IMO keeping most of the fish we do even in a larger tank is probably not the right thing to do. But as hobbyists we can make positive impacts as well. Used to be that most FW were wild caught but now much, if not most, is farmed in places such as Thailand, Florida and other places. Now you are providing a source of income to people who need it, in an environmentally and sustainable way. I read an article that compared the income these third world fisherman get from catching fish for food versus food for aquariums and pound for pound, the latter was much more profitable for them. If we as a hobby, and not just the handful on MR, insisted on only buying from suppliers that practiced sustainable harvesting, our hobby would give as much as it took.
Then there's also the educational aspect. Rather than saying, " some shmuck will see my tank and buy all the crap he shouldnt. " Say " some guy and his kids saw my tank and I used the experience to educate them as to the do's and don't's and also about reef ecology, etc. " People love what they know and work hard to protect what they love.