Old Tank Syndrome

[Paul B]

(I posted as an answer to a question on another forum and I thought it would be interesting to put it here)

My theory of Old Tank Syndrome is two fold.
First off I think that if you are running a DSB you will experience a problem before ten years. But that is a standing debate and can not be confirmed until there are more ten year old DSBs running with no problems. My other theory is the fact that few people add new bacteria from the sea.
I do this all the time, every week in the summer.
It is my theory (and I am sure only mine) that in time the meager strains of bacteria you have in your tank from your LFS will become stagnant and not work for us as well as they should. We tend to think of bacteria as three types but these three types encompass thousands of kinds in each type and the strain you have in your tank may not be the best for our needs.
Your LFS where you aquired your fish from most likely uses ASW and all of his bacteria came from his wholesaler's tanks which are copper treated and over crowded.
I believe my tank would not have lasted as long as it did without new influx of bacteria from the sea.
I sometimes put mud from the sea bed in a dish and put it in my tank. In a few days I remove the dish with the mud as I only want the bacteria.
My nitrates are zero and I run a RUGF.
I am far from meticulous with maintenance and only change water 4 or 5 times a year. My tank is also overcrowded due to breeding experiments.
I can only attribute it to new bacteria.
I may be wrong in my assumptions but I can't think of any other reason.

 

[ILikeFish]

Have you read about the live mud you can buy? I think it is designed to be left in the sump and replenished periodically. Do you think this will work as well as the stuff you collect and have less risk of introducing unwanted organisms?

 

[reefman]

i think most the old tank syndrome is due to neglect due to taking it for granted that the tank is doing fine n slacking off until the damages r almost irreverisble.

 

[Paul B]

Actually I do not. I don't think you can package and sell live bacteria very well.
I know about live mud and I may be 100% wrong. I never tried it since I am surrounded by mud.

 

[JLAudio]

Paul have you ever had any problems with disease, infections, or problematic pests from all your encorporation of long island livestock?

 

[Paul B]

jLAudio. I have been using Long Island Sound water, flora and fauna from the sixtees.
My tank has not been affected by paracites in over 25 years. I will even say that I believe this water has something to do with it. My tank doesen't seem to have the problems that I keep reading about. I don't have to check the parameters or use additives. My fish very rarely get any disease and I do not quarantine which would be a waste of time in a tank that uses fresh NSW.
I am not advocating neglecting quarantine. Many tanks are extreamly prone to these infections. I believe it is because too many tanks are too sterile but I do not have any facts about it to justify condoning it. It is just my belief that if your tank always uses ASW and was never exposed to disease organisms in NSW, it will not be as bulletproof.
Just my theory

 

[Wes]

Actually I do not. I don't think you can package and sell live bacteria very well.

Paul there are several companies now who package and sell live bacteria for aquarium use.

Prodibio, Zeovit, Brightwell Aquatics, Fauna Marin, Elos are a few.

-wes

 

[Paul B]

Wes, I know that but I am not sure if bacteria can survive packaged that long. I know on the package it says they are in some kind of suspended animation but I have not researched it myself.
I still think the sea has the proper bacteria in the correct proportions.

 

[masterswimmer]

I still think the sea has the proper bacteria in the correct proportions.

Paul, I couldn't agree more. However, different locations in the sea have different parameters. Tahitian waters differ from Caribbean waters which differs from Northern Atlantic waters which differs from Red Sea or Mediterranean waters.

The animals most hobbyists are keeping in their tanks are most likely from various locale's. Therefore the parameters these critters ultimately are kept in differ greatly from the waters they were originally 'harvested' from. Hence my theory that many problems exist because too many varieties of animals in one tank introduces bacteria to the neighboring species that they wouldn't normally be exposed to and had an opportunity to develop a resistance to in nature.

As yours is......JMO

Russ

 

[Paul B]

Sounds plausable.
I think in New York waters we run the gamut of bacteria and cover everything :bablefish

 

[Wes]

Wes, I know that but I am not sure if bacteria can survive packaged that long. I know on the package it says they are in some kind of suspended animation but I have not researched it myself.
I still think the sea has the proper bacteria in the correct proportions.

Alas, if only it were easy for some of us to get out to the ocean on a regular basis. Do you think the "store bought" bacteria above could be potentially beneficial to us who do not have easy access to "clean" natural seawater?

 

[Paul B]

I am not sure but I would imagine it is better than nothing

 

[ZBT3091]

paul, i agree that natural seawater is great for a tank, otherwise something like nutri-seawater would be useless and not have so many positives reviews (minus the costs). I do think that people who collect from the oceans themselves, especially new york, need to be mindful that nutri-seawater is extremely well filtered, which gets rid of beneficial bacteria, but also parasites and harmful bacteria. When collecting from oceans, we dont have the option to mega-filter this water, and therefore invite everything in the buckets we collect with into our tanks. All it takes is one parasite to wipe out everything in the tank and out of our control. Maybe you have just gotten lucky, but it seems to be working. Just my thoughts.

 

[Paul B]

Your thoughts are in many people's minds the reason they do not use NSW.
There are many tanks that are prone to paracite infection and as you say I may be lucky.
If I were worried about paracites I could heat the water slightly. I forgot the exact temperature that kills paracites while leaving bacteria alone but I could easily find that information.
I feel the benefits outweigh any risks. I myself use NSW all the time with no treatment which may somehow protect my animals from infection by somehow giving them some sort of protection. I have no other way to explain how I could do this for so many years and never experience a problem, paracites or otherwise.
I guess it is a personal decision.
Paul

 

[CHEMCHEF]

This is by far the most interesting post i have read thus far on manhattan reefs.
I have often wondered why people dont just do water changes with with sea water. I mean come on man we are surrounded by water on LI.
If you could Find out the temp that kiils parasites and leaves natural bacteria, that would be great, and I belive you are the same guy with the collection thread, in which you collect in port washington.
If so we can work something out if you want to treat your water with heat, to be on the safe side.
I have a thirty gallon steam kettle in my kitchen right on the bay in Port Washington + pots and burners that could accomodate 100s of gallons + fairly regular access to launch boats to collect the water
LMK

 

[Paul B]

Chemchef. 125 degrees maintained for a few hours. I personally have never tried this and have no Idea if it works. It is an old treatment of NSW advocated by Robert Straughn (The Father Of Salt Water Fish Keeping)
I have used Clorox many times for sterilization of aquarium water. My entire tank was treated with 2 cups of Regular Clorox in the seventees to rid it of paracites. Some of that same water is still in my reef. I just neutralized the chlorine.

Mr Straughn practically invented the hobby in the fiftees.
Anyway In my case I do not worry about paracites and I do want the bacteria. Both bad and good.
I feel (and it is only my opinion) that fish as well as us need to be exposed to these
"germs" to gain an immunity.
Of course it could kill all of your animals too.

 

[CHEMCHEF]

I think it is worth the risk.
If i start with small water changes, say a quart a week to start and i think things will level out over time.
It seems pretty silly to me to mix SW buy salt and all that when i am literally 20 steps from perfectly good natural water
I did wonder however about the clarity of the water in your system.

 

[Paul B]

I did wonder however about the clarity of the water in your system.

My water is as clear as Tahiti

 

[Wes]

FWIW, At 121.1 Celsius for 12 minutes you are considered sterile as per FDA regulation.

Different bacteria have different kill rates. If you happen to know the particular bacteria you intend to keep, I can calculate a table of temps and times that the bacteria will die off.

Wes

 

[CHEMCHEF]

Thanks