My sump flooded last night after the mag 5 apparently died and the water intake flooded until the siphon was lost. Then the mag turned back on and pushed all the water from the sump onto my carpet (about 8 gallons). I got a mag 7.5 today and i noticed that the water level is still rising in the sump while the DT water drops. The overflow u-tube is 1.5 inches. I have never had a problem with the mag 5, and now the mag 7 isn't cutting it for pushing out the water intime with the intake. Any help would be appreciated. The tank is right now sitting as it has been for the past 14 hrs.
Sump help
- Thread starter ZBT3091
- Start date
Does your tank have an overflow box?
I've never heard of a 7.5 Mag drive pump...can you recheck the label on it? (also can't find one on line anywhere...)
Did you replace the 8 g of water you lost last night?
Any pics of your sump..not terribly up close..if possible?
Do you have a ball valve or gate valve hooked up to the plumbing so that you can adjust your Mag drive pump output?
I've never heard of a 7.5 Mag drive pump...can you recheck the label on it? (also can't find one on line anywhere...)
Did you replace the 8 g of water you lost last night?
Any pics of your sump..not terribly up close..if possible?
Do you have a ball valve or gate valve hooked up to the plumbing so that you can adjust your Mag drive pump output?
- Location
- Great Neck
I might be jumping to conclusions here, but do you have a check valve on your return line?
One of these would prevent a back-syphon if your pump shuts off.
One of these would prevent a back-syphon if your pump shuts off.
- Location
- Melville, NY
well if your sump flooded when the mag 5 turned off then I would say that the hole in the return line is too far below the waterline. If you have an external overflow you can usually adjust the tanks water level by adjusting the overflow. The other thing I dont understand is, how did the mag 5 push the water out of your sump and on to the carpet? If it turned back on, it should have pushed the water through the plumbing. It doesnt make a lot of sense unless the line broke someplace. And now that you have the mag 7 on there, I would turn it on and off a few times while youre standing there to make sure that, in the event of another malfunction or power outtage, you dont have the same thing happening again.
bad coffee
Inept at life.
- Location
- Location: Location:
Is your drain line clear?
Also, have you done a power-out check before? It seems to me you're running the sump level too high. Ideally, you want the sump to be able to hold all the water that will flow back the pipes when the power goes out.
B
Also, have you done a power-out check before? It seems to me you're running the sump level too high. Ideally, you want the sump to be able to hold all the water that will flow back the pipes when the power goes out.
B
- Location
- Melville, NY
Ok after thinking a little, I'm going to assume that when this all happened you were either in bed or in another room and did not see exactally what happened. So logically, this is most likely what happened. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.
Im assuming that your siphon break hole on the return is below the water line. The pump died and the water from the DT back siphoned into the sump until the water level hit the siphon break hole and stopped the back siphon. I'm going to deduce that you had too much water overall in the system, and that as it back siphoned it overflowed the sump and you lost 8 gallons on to the floor. Then the return pump kicked in and the rest of the sump was put back into the DT, minus what was lost on the floor, leaving your sump 8 gallons short. Logically this makes a lot more sense then your mag kicking back on and pushing water onto the floor. So it seems that you most likely didnt check to make sure that during a power loss there was enough room in the sump to hold the back siphon from the display. So as far as fixing it goes, you can either play with the external overflow (if you have one) and adjust the water level in the display tank and adjust where that siphon break hole sits at the water line (lower the overflow and the DT level will drop closer to the hole), or you can lift the return line so the hole is higher at the waterline, or you can take water out of the system to ensure this doesnt happen again. Be aware though that if you just take water out without adjusting the DTs level, youre only going to notice it in the sump. I may have explained this a little confusing but hopefully you get it and hopefully you wont have any problems with the new pump. Make sure though, like I said earlier, that you test the system by unplugging the pump and making sure it doesnt overflow again.
Im assuming that your siphon break hole on the return is below the water line. The pump died and the water from the DT back siphoned into the sump until the water level hit the siphon break hole and stopped the back siphon. I'm going to deduce that you had too much water overall in the system, and that as it back siphoned it overflowed the sump and you lost 8 gallons on to the floor. Then the return pump kicked in and the rest of the sump was put back into the DT, minus what was lost on the floor, leaving your sump 8 gallons short. Logically this makes a lot more sense then your mag kicking back on and pushing water onto the floor. So it seems that you most likely didnt check to make sure that during a power loss there was enough room in the sump to hold the back siphon from the display. So as far as fixing it goes, you can either play with the external overflow (if you have one) and adjust the water level in the display tank and adjust where that siphon break hole sits at the water line (lower the overflow and the DT level will drop closer to the hole), or you can lift the return line so the hole is higher at the waterline, or you can take water out of the system to ensure this doesnt happen again. Be aware though that if you just take water out without adjusting the DTs level, youre only going to notice it in the sump. I may have explained this a little confusing but hopefully you get it and hopefully you wont have any problems with the new pump. Make sure though, like I said earlier, that you test the system by unplugging the pump and making sure it doesnt overflow again.
What i think happened is this: my mag 5 had some scratches in it, and the impeller had a pretty weak magnet on the powerhead. The mag 5 was too weak for the gph coming down from the overflow box, therefore, the overflow boxed caused the water in my sump level to rise. After it got to a certain point, the siphon broke. Since the mag was still pushing water, just too weak, all the water from my sump was pushed into my tank, causing the tank to flood from the top.
Also, i got into a pretty big arguement today with the owner of Aqua Hut were i bought the mag from. I am almost certain i am right and that this guy was b.s.ing. He was telling me that it does not matter how much gph the overflow box has, as long as the pump is not TOO strong for the overflow, and that if it is too strong the mag will push all the water into the tank. What iwas saying was, that as long as the gph of the mag was above the gph of the overflow box, which in this case is 350 gph from the overflow and 700 from the mag, there would be no floods. The makes sense to me because if the gph from the overflow (350) exceeded a mag 5 which is 500 but could be less if there was something causing problems, the tank would slowly drain into the sump until the siphon was lost in the u-tube. If the gph of the mag is over the gph of the overflow, for example 350 from the u-tube to 700 on my mag 7 there wont be a problem because the mag only has 350 gallons per hour to push, not 700. Sorry for the rant but im mad because he started getting really nasty and I was almost certain he was wrong and new it but didn't want to refund a sale.
ZBT3091 the owner of aquahut is right. As long as the overflow will keep up with the flow of the pump you will not have a flood. It is only draining what the pump is pushing.
If you had a flood it is because your setup is not fail-safe. Lower the water level in the sump if possible. Never rely on a piece of equipment. Pumps fail.
If you had a flood it is because your setup is not fail-safe. Lower the water level in the sump if possible. Never rely on a piece of equipment. Pumps fail.
- Location
- Dingmans ferry PA
i would consider putting all live stock in a large container for a while and drilling tank.u will never have this prob again
- Location
- Melville, NY
Jackson is right, as is the owner of Aqua Hut. If you were to bring your tank to a steady equilibrium, with no water draining and no water returning, and then turn on your pump, the overflow is going to allow only what the sump pushes out to flow back. As long as you arent running something over the top like a 1000 gph return on a 200 gph overflow, you should be fine. Remember also, a mag 7 is 700 gph at 0 foot return. If you have 5 feet of return pipe from the mag to the tank, it is much less than 700 gph. If the overflow rate exceeds the return rate, you will never have a problem because the overflow will only return what your pump puts back into the tank. An overflow rated for 400 gph will only return 200 gph if thats all your return pump is pushing in. This leads to part two of my story :lol:
Now on to part two of the problem. Overflow siphoning and backsiphoning are two different things. You can only siphon water from a higher source to a lower source, obviously. So to stop a backsiphon (which is from your return to your sump), you need that hole in the return line. This will stop your tank from overflowing your sump in the event of a power outtage. On the otherside, you have the overflow, which works similarly physics wise. But with an overflow box, there should be no siphon break at all. The way the siphon stops is that the external part of the overflow has a water level lower then the tank. When the return pump stops, the U tube will continue to siphon from the display tank to the external overflow until the two water levels are equal. But the siphon doesnt 'break' it just equalizes. So there should always be water in that U tube. Then, when the pump begins to return water to the tank again, and the water level rises, the siphon will automatically continue. If, the other night, the return pump started and pushed the water into your DT and the Display Tank ITSELF overflowed, then you have your U tube and overflow set up wrong. This is also why having a larger gph overflow compared to a smaller return pump will allow you to have no problems. It cant siphon more then the pump puts back, and the siphon shouldnt BREAK if the pump stops. Make sure that the longer end of the U tube is in the external part of the overflow, not the DT part. Reversing this can cause the siphon to break and your tank will overflow when the pump kicks back on.
Long winded, I know, but trust me, it makes sense from a physics point of view. If you really dont understand, feel free to PM me and we can get a phone conversation going and I can try to explain it better.
Now on to part two of the problem. Overflow siphoning and backsiphoning are two different things. You can only siphon water from a higher source to a lower source, obviously. So to stop a backsiphon (which is from your return to your sump), you need that hole in the return line. This will stop your tank from overflowing your sump in the event of a power outtage. On the otherside, you have the overflow, which works similarly physics wise. But with an overflow box, there should be no siphon break at all. The way the siphon stops is that the external part of the overflow has a water level lower then the tank. When the return pump stops, the U tube will continue to siphon from the display tank to the external overflow until the two water levels are equal. But the siphon doesnt 'break' it just equalizes. So there should always be water in that U tube. Then, when the pump begins to return water to the tank again, and the water level rises, the siphon will automatically continue. If, the other night, the return pump started and pushed the water into your DT and the Display Tank ITSELF overflowed, then you have your U tube and overflow set up wrong. This is also why having a larger gph overflow compared to a smaller return pump will allow you to have no problems. It cant siphon more then the pump puts back, and the siphon shouldnt BREAK if the pump stops. Make sure that the longer end of the U tube is in the external part of the overflow, not the DT part. Reversing this can cause the siphon to break and your tank will overflow when the pump kicks back on.
Long winded, I know, but trust me, it makes sense from a physics point of view. If you really dont understand, feel free to PM me and we can get a phone conversation going and I can try to explain it better.
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so if i have a mag 7 now with my overflow box that is 1.5 u-tube diameter should i not have a problem. I also hooked up a 560 watt backup battery with only my mag 7 on it so hopefully if there is a poweroutage the mag will just keep going for a good amount of time. Thanks for clearing it up i get it now. What i said before made sense to me at the time. I feel like a db now lol.
- Location
- Melville, NY
make sure that you test the system by pulling the plug on the pump. make sure that the sump doesnt overflow and that after you plug it in, the overflow begins to siphon again. If the sump overflows or the overflow doesnt start again, you still have a problem.
- Location
- NY
ZBT, there's another factor you're not taking into consideration. You keep stating that the Mag 7 pushes 700 gph and the Mag 5 pushes 500 gph. They do..........at zero feet of head pressure. As you add each foot of vertical height to the plumbing, you lose A LOT of flow.
Here's an example of the comparison between head height for each pump:
.................0'...........2'...........4'............6'............8'............10' - Feet
Mag 5.......500.........410.........310........180...........75...........10 - GPH
Mag 7.......700.........550.........480........400..........300..........120 - GPH
Keep in mind, you ALWAYS want the overflow to be able to handle MORE flow than your pump can produce.
swimmer
Here's an example of the comparison between head height for each pump:
.................0'...........2'...........4'............6'............8'............10' - Feet
Mag 5.......500.........410.........310........180...........75...........10 - GPH
Mag 7.......700.........550.........480........400..........300..........120 - GPH
Keep in mind, you ALWAYS want the overflow to be able to handle MORE flow than your pump can produce.
swimmer
- Location
- NY
A siphon break occurs when air gets in the U-tube. You need to get a pump to suck out the air in the U-tube to recreate the siphon. This particular pump is made by TOM called the Aqua Lifter.
swimmer
Attachments
- Location
- Melville, NY
I dont have that problem when the power goes out. The U tube continues to siphon until the water levels are somewhat equal. It never breaks and air never gets into the U tube. And I unplug my return pump twice a day during feeding. There are two parts that play a role. Water levels and U tube length. If both ends of the U tube are longer then the water level on the lower side (the external overflow side) then you will never have a siphon break because it will just come to a stop (while the U tube is still full) when the water levels equal out. Remember, in order for the water to siphon it must be lower on one side. When the pump turns back on and the water level in the internal overflow rises again, the siphon will automatically continue. I have never had a problem since day one of setting it up.
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