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Pedro Nuno Ferreira

Liquid Breathing
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Hi Chemchef

Copper is one of the trace elements found in natural sea water and it is vital in those concentrations for the life of many marine organisms. Oxygen is vital for us however if above a certain percentage, it is lethal for us, yet without it in the right percentage we cannot live.
About copper in natural sea water

Oceans, tidal pools, lakes, rivers, and ponds --all bodies of water that sustain life-- have copper present as a vital, naturally occurring element. Its presence as a basic component of the process that spawns the abundant species that swim, scurry, wiggle and wallow in the waters of the world has been established by Nature and confirmed by scientists.
It is, simply stated, indispensable because it is necessary for normal growth in living beings.
"The role of copper in small quantities is essential to marine life," says Dr. Karl D. Shearer, Research Fisheries Biologist with the National Marine Fisheries Service, at the Northwest Fisheries Science Center in Seattle, Washington.
"It is a key component of enzymes, compounds that act as catalysts in the metabolism of organisms," says Dr. A. G. Lewis, an oceanographer and Professor in the Department of Oceanography and Zoology at The University of British Columbia in Vancouver, B. C., Canada. "Because it is an essential metal, an adequate supply is necessary for normal metabolism," he explains
"Copper's main role in the body is through metalloenzymes and enzymes catalyze many different chemical reactions," says Dr. Kathryn Michel, Assistant Professor of Nutrition at the University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
Dr. Michel adds that "the body is full of enzymes and any chemical reaction in the body has possibly enzymes associated with it. Copper is a very important component and absolutely essential to the performance of the enzymes"
She explains that "enzymes are critical to the development of bone tissue and the production of red blood cells. A copper deficiency would contribute to anemia."
Put simply, "enzymes won't function without trace minerals such as copper, which means there's no metabolism," says Dr. Shearer, the National Marine Fisheries Services biologist, who has worked extensively in the analysis and development of food for fish. With no metabolism there would be no energy to fuel the vital processes that sustain life in creatures.
Aquatic plants, which play an important role in marine life, are no less reliant on copper. It plays an important role in photosynthesis and respiration. Like marine animal life, plants get copper from copper that is dissolved in the water, copper that is present in other particles or sediment found in the water and copper in their food.
Levels of copper in fresh water and salt water have been found to be generally low. In the United States studies of raw, untreated surface water have shown copper content ranging from 0.001 milligrams per liter to 0.28 milligrams per liter. The mean was 0.015 milligrams per liter. In open oceans, copper levels ranged from 0.1 milligrams per liter to 0.39 milligrams per liter, with an average of 0.8 milligrams per liter.
These figures show how copper is effective in small quantities. Dr. Shearer says that "the normal level of copper in whole fish tissue is one to two parts per million." To measure such tiny amounts requires a spectro photometer, an instrument that gauges matter by zeroing in all the way down to atoms in molecules. Scientists heat animal tissue to extremely high temperatures until atoms begin to emit light. Different atoms produce light at different wavelengths. So "we measure (light) wavelength to get to know what elements are present in the tissue of the fish and we measure the intensity of the light, which tells us the amount present," says Dr. Shearer.
They amount of copper and other trace minerals in the growth and development of fish, crustaceans (shellfish) and mollusks such as oysters and clams may be minute in quantity but enormous in economic terms. Many of these species are part of the renewable foundation of fishing, a vast worldwide activity that helps meet a growing demand for protein.
Commercial and recreational fishing is practiced just about every where in the world, including such land-locked countries as Bolivia, in South America, and Azerbaijan, in Asia. Bolivians have been fishing the waters of Lake Titicaca for centuries, and the valuable caviar industry of the world is centered in Azerbaijan, on the Caspian Sea. The Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) of the United Nations estimated that in 1997 the world's food fish production reached 90 million tons, an almost threefold increase since 1960. Almost a third of that catch was raised on fish farms in a fast-growing commercial process known as aquaculture. Fish grow under controlled conditions within enclosures and are fed a carefully balanced diet that invariably includes copper.
At Bio-Oregon, in Warrenton, Oregon, a producer of formulated food for fish farms, Dr. Dennis Roley, says that "copper has always been a supplemental trace element." Because copper can be virtually recycled from healthy animal tissue, fish food industries find copper in organic forms such as copper sulfate in the offal of edible fish such as salmon that has already been processed.
By including copper in fish food, fish farmers are replicating what nature does so well in the wild: providing an environment that nurtures life and growth. In this respect marine life is similar to other species.
"The requirements for trace minerals such as copper are pretty steady among vertebrate animals," says Dr. Shearer. Interestingly, he adds, crustaceans, such as shrimp, lobster and crab, are in particularly need of copper because its serves as an oxygen carrier in their blood.
Dr. Lewis, the University of British Columbia oceanographer, notes that "copper concentrations in crustaceans may be elevated compared with other groups since many crustaceans use copper in a blood pigment�"
That is why, if you look closely, blood on an uncooked shrimp looks bluish, a typical color of certain forms of oxidized copper. Copper in marine invertebrates plays the role that among humans is performed by iron, which is present in blood as hemoglobin.
It doesn't take much copper to perform its critical role in marine species. Data supplied by Dr. Shearer shows that Atlantic salmon and Channel catfish require 3 milligrams of copper per kilogram of feed. Rainbow trout and carp make do on 3 milligrams per kilogram of feed.
Although requirements have not been determined for every marine species, scientists do know that copper deficiencies in certain species can result in reduced growth and cataracts, among other symptoms. Conversely, scientists have observed that overly high presence of copper in natural waters, due to pollutants or produced experimentally, may badly damage gills, adversely affect the liver and kidneys of fish or cause some neurological damage."
Scientists are frequently frustrated in their efforts to study more closely the effects of too little or too much copper on aquatic species in the wild because it is unusual to find whole fish that have died slowly as a result of malnutrition. "In the wild animals with deficiencies get quickly eaten or decompose," says Dr. Shearer.
Dr. Lewis, who every year prepares a review of copper in the environment for the International Copper Association, says that copper plays an important role in other aquatic environments, too. It is a key component of marine plant life. It is commonly used to purify and distribute drinking water. It combats the growth of unwanted organisms that foul water intake lines, aquaculture facilities and the hulls of vessels.
Copper's Dual Role in Aquaculture

Copper is essential to the growth and development of aquaculture species. It also plays a frequent role in the supply of water that makes fish farming possible.
To insure healthy development of fish, water has to flow easily in and out of the enclosures were they are raised. Undesirable growths can impair the flow of water by blocking or "fouling" ducts, pipes, grates and other conduits. The reduced flow will result in less life-sustaining oxygen being circulated in the waters.
To keep fish farms operating at an optimal level, operators resort to copper-containing compounds, known as antifouling agents, as a weapon against the growth of organisms that impair the flow of water. When properly used, these agents -copper alloys, metal-containing plastic and copper-containing paints and coatings-create a durable antifouling surface that reduces maintenance and eliminates the need for more hazardous types of coatings.

have also a look here and here

Well copper is present in natural sea water and as long as it stays within the natural concentrations that exist in natural sea water it is beneficial, so it is normal to find it in the synthetic salt mixes.

Cheers
Pedro Nuno;-)
 

CHEMCHEF

PERMANOOB
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westbury ny
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Thanks , Pedro.
I was looking at chemical results on Artifical salt, and was wondering why every brand seemed to have copper.
I guess my next question is. Is less copper in the salt better, or is it that, at those levels, it's just a matter of it being there at all.
 

Pedro Nuno Ferreira

Liquid Breathing
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Thanks , Pedro.
I was looking at chemical results on Artificial salt, and was wondering why every brand seemed to have copper.
I guess my next question is. Is less copper in the salt better, or is it that, at those levels, it's just a matter of it being there at all.

Hi
Artificial salt mixes may not mimic exactly NSW but that is not a problem or they simply would have been abandoned a long time ago for bad results, and we all know that it is not the case. In my case when I started I was kind of a pioneer using artificial salt mixes, it was some 22 years ago and I used Instant Ocean and did use it for many years. At the time there were few salt water hobbyists over here, and all those few used natural sea water that they collected at sea, some 4km from the coast, and they could do it because they had the means for it, both money and small boats, I didn't. Well after some time and witnessing that there were no ill effects from using artificial salt mixes, some of them changed for salt mixes and the reason was mainly because at that time, sea water was not always reliable as it is more nowadays because of pollution, this said it means that in those days environmental conscience and responsible attitude and practices and laws were almost non-existent and far from being effective. Well things have changed up to the point that many of us having this natural source right at our door step, started to turn towards its use and thus made come true a dream kept for many years, that is, collecting NSW on the shores and use a natural source. We still have to be cautious, still nothing like in the old days, and its fun also. Never the less many of us if not all, keep always at hand the good old artificial salt mix, the one with which we feel more comfortable, no mater the brand, as long a the results are good, so you should not worry to much with that unless you see detrimental results that you can link without any doubt to this or that salt mix, and I mean without any doubt like you notice that the use of this or that salt mix leads to bad results without any other possible source for problems. One of the problems associated with trace elements concentration, is that it is pointed that some trace elements over a given proportion will destroy fish larvae...well possibly still I'm studying Matt Pedersen work in keeping and breeding Oxymonacanthus longirostris, and to my knowledge Matt uses artificial salt mixes, and so do many other successful marine fish breeders, so had these been a critical issue, that is, the concentration of trace elements being substantially above NSW levels, they would not be so successful or successful at all, and that is not the case, not only are they being successful as also they are making the difference towards the development of knowledge as well as the active protection of many marine species. Some examples of brave people in that category are Matt Pedersen, Sanjay Joshi, just to name two, and to my knowledge these only use artificial salt mixes.
Concerning copper concentrations, I wouldn't worry to much with that unless signs of detrimental effects were noticeable. Artificial salt mixes are used worldwide even by large public aquariums with great success, had it been otherwise and they surely would not use them. Also companies producing artificial salt mixes test them and the formulas have been improved throughout the years like many other products, so they keep being better all the time and although I like and use nowadays mostly NSW, I used mostly artificial salt mixes and I keep at hand always one or two salt mixes that I like should I run out of NSW and not be able to collect some due to bad weather or simply to use as a source for variety.

Cheers
Pedro Nuno;-)
 
Last edited:

KathyC

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Barnum Island
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You posed an interesting question Chem and as usual Pedro has given us a great response!
I read through the articles that Pedro posted and it seems that copper is necessary as a trace (VERY, VERY trace) element that is needed in the marine environment.
We've all seen dire warnings about treating SW fish with any copper based product inside of a reef tank. Obviously the fish can deal with it in a QT but we don't use it in the DT as we'd kill off the inverts (including all of pods too I'd imagine), not sure of what else, but obviously the dosage would be so high that we could wipe out much more since the understanding of what marine creatures use the copper remains in question.

This line shed some light on the reason why it kills off the inverts..
That is why, if you look closely, blood on an uncooked shrimp looks bluish, a typical color of certain forms of oxidized copper. Copper in marine invertebrates plays the role that among humans is performed by iron, which is present in blood as hemoglobin.
Seems we mess with their blood when copper is present in a tank.
Interesting topic.
 

Pedro Nuno Ferreira

Liquid Breathing
Rating - 0%
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You posed an interesting question Chem and as usual Pedro has given us a great response!
I read through the articles that Pedro posted and it seems that copper is necessary as a trace (VERY, VERY trace) element that is needed in the marine environment.
We've all seen dire warnings about treating SW fish with any copper based product inside of a reef tank. Obviously the fish can deal with it in a QT but we don't use it in the DT as we'd kill off the inverts (including all of pods too I'd imagine), not sure of what else, but obviously the dosage would be so high that we could wipe out much more since the understanding of what marine creatures use the copper remains in question.

This line shed some light on the reason why it kills off the inverts..

That is why, if you look closely, blood on an uncooked shrimp looks bluish, a typical color of certain forms of oxidized copper. Copper in marine invertebrates plays the role that among humans is performed by iron, which is present in blood as hemoglobin.

Seems we mess with their blood when copper is present in a tank.
Interesting topic.

Hi KathyC

Indeed we do or can do so, especially with shrimps or shall I call them arthropods...
The blue blood is also present in arachnids, arthropods, molluscs (but not in royalty as believed :tongue1:...or they would not be humans:splitspin), and it is called Hemocyanin, so this is one of the answers of the need of copper for vital life functions in marine organisms.

Cheers
Pedro Nuno;-)
 

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