Phosphate reactor required?

[wallysworld]

I am looking into getting a new phos reactor. I heard from one of the LFS that you don't need a phos reactor if you use RO/DI for makeup and water changes.
Is this true? What are the other source of phosphate?

Thanks
Walter

 

[Alex]

having a phosphate reactor is not essential, it is convenient. their are other ways of controlling phosphate. however for a LFS to tell you that you will not need it, is just not true. phosphate removal media is a means of keeping your phosphates down at an acceptable number. One thing that will add to your P04 that many reefers do is overfeeding. getting the reactor will help utilize the media more efficiently.

 

[ming]

I don't think a phosphate reactor is required, but it is helpful if you need to lower phosphates. Some people like a lot of fish and feeding them a lot, other people are fine with only a few fish in a large tank, which doesn't require much more then heavy skimming.

 

[wallysworld]

So are we saying that only food and only too much of it will cause phosphates to rise? If so what type of food has the most phosphate?

"Some people like a lot of fish and feeding them a lot,"

What is a lot?

Thanks,
Walter

 

[Killerdrgn]

frozen food that uses gel binders has the most phosphates.

 

[Alex]

food is just one of the most common. there are many others. Calcium reactors for example will give you phosphates when the co2 is not completely used up in the chamber. Your question was, if you need to have a reactor and the answer is no, however some form of P04 media is recommended. and then to use that P04 media to its full potential, you should have a P04 reactor.

In this hobby what works for one person will not work for another. however , the principals are the same "good water parameters will get you good results."

 

[ming]

So are we saying that only food and only too much of it will cause phosphates to rise? If so what type of food has the most phosphate?

"Some people like a lot of fish and feeding them a lot,"

What is a lot?

Thanks,
Walter

Food is probably the primary reason for high phosphates for most people assuming they already have a RO.
"a lot" depends on the tank. If you're one of those people who believes in no skimming and only doing water changes, very little can equal a lot.
It also depends if you rinse your frozen food which can help.
I would say if you skim efficiently with a good size skimmer (a good size will probably be another debate) and feed a 90 gallon tank about 1 cube (from the 4oz trays from hikari) once per day, that is about middle ground.
But if you have a school of anthias or anything else, that might not be enough food for them to survive on so you would need to feed more. And same goes for if you only have 2 chromis, that might be too much food so you can feed less.

a LARGE fuge can also help, large being at least half the size of your display tank with macro algae

 

[KathyC]

So are we saying that only food and only too much of it will cause phosphates to rise? If so what type of food has the most phosphate?

"Some people like a lot of fish and feeding them a lot,"

What is a lot?

Thanks,
Walter

Food is not the only source of phosphates although it is a large contributor to their accumulation in tanks. As mentioned, the gel binders you find in frozen food packaged in cubes adds phosphates as well as any of the dry foods...pellets or flake. Frozen food like Mysis should be thawed and rinsed before use also to lessen the nutrients you are adding to your tank.

Some salt mixes have a small amount of phosphates in them too.

The only way you can exclude all Ro/Di water from saying there are no phosphates is if you have a TDS meter and it is reading 'zero'. Once that # goes up past zero, you are potentially adding phosphates to your tank.

If your live rock (and or sand) came from a prior tank -- and that tank had high phosphate issues -- you may have high phosphates as it is said that live rock and sand absorbs phosphates ..and will continue to leach them back into your tank for an undetermined amount of time afterwards.

I recently read that lower quality carbon sometimes contains phosphates and am trying to get more information on this as there is a test that can be performed to determine if a person has that type of carbon. Best to purchase quality carbon like Marinelands Black Diamond.

Having a phospahte reactor should not lull a person into a false sense of security that they are removing all of their excess phosphates either. The media needs to be changed weekly until you get down to a reading of .03 (or less, but zero isn't good either as the tank does need a minute amount..) and then you should adapt a maintenance program of changing it as soon as the number begin to rise again.
Some phosphate removal media will leach the phosphates back into the tank once it is fully saturated with phosphates. Best to read the packaging instructions that come with the product you are using to see if your media does this.

As far as feeding a lot..you only want to add as much food as your fish will polish off right away. Excess food will feed your scavengers and some of those populations will boom if the tank is overfed (think bristle worms..), as well as pollute your water. That combined with high phosphates will create algae issues.

It is said that a fishes stomach is equal in size to its eye
Keep in mind that more active fish (that are constantly very active) have higher metabolisms and do require more food.

Hope that answers your question

 

[cthoughts1]

..."Frozen food like Mysis should be thawed and rinsed before use also to lessen the nurtients you are adding to your tank"....

How do you rinse the frozen food? First time I have heard that term.. I'm stuggling with this situation right now as well.. I got some phosban, but I'm not sure its doing all that much..

Thanks.

 

[KathyC]

..."Frozen food like Mysis should be thawed and rinsed before use also to lessen the nurtients you are adding to your tank"....

How do you rinse the frozen food? First time I have heard that term.. I'm stuggling with this situation right now as well.. I got some phosban, but I'm not sure its doing all that much..

Thanks.

How are you buying the mysis - in the little cube packs? You can take however many cubes you feed..and thaw them out in a disposable cup (that's what I use) that you have added tank water to. Once they are thawed, I dump that into an aquarium net (either a brine shrimp net, or one with fine webbing) and then rinse the mysis with either tank water or rodi water and squeeze out the excess liquid. This helps you rid the food of the liquid that binds it during the freezing process which is loaded with nutrients.

How often are you changing the Phosban in your reactor? Do you have the flow set so that the Phosban just tumbles very gently in the top 1/2 to 3/4 inches of the media? Are you rinsing the media well with rodi or tank water befgore adding it to the reactor. If you are doing all of these things, then the phosban is helping rid your tank of phosphates.

 

[cthoughts1]

Hey Kathy, thanks for the advice.. I will definitely begin to do as you suggested with the mysis shrimp.. I've been dethawing them in tank water and then once unfrozen just dumping the mysis shrimp into the tank, water and all... I have to get me one of those real thin nets like you have and then follow your recommendations..

I personally don't have a reactor.. I placed the phosban in a media bag and put it on a HOB filter that I turned into a refugium..

 

[wallysworld]

Thanks for all the replies!

So what I got from this is that food and a few other things may introduce phosphate. If you have phosphate >.02 its a good idea to use some method of getting rid of them. The key is do what ever it takes to get PO4 to <.02 this could be a water change, PO4 reactor with proper flow or possibly a large refugium with some sort of PO4 consumer i.e. cheatos...

Feeding fish is something I believe people almost always over do. I've been keeping fish only tanks since I can remember. They are cold blooded and even though they move a lot they actually use very little calories. I will skip a day of feeding once a week sometimes twice.

Thanks!
Walter

 

[KathyC]

Thanks for all the replies!

So what I got from this is that food and a few other things may introduce phosphate. If you have phosphate >.02 its a good idea to use some method of getting rid of them. The key is do what ever it takes to get PO4 to <.02 this could be a water change, PO4 reactor with proper flow or possibly a large refugium with some sort of PO4 consumer i.e. cheatos...

Feeding fish is something I believe people almost always over do. I've been keeping fish only tanks since I can remember. They are cold blooded and even though they move a lot they actually use very little calories. I will skip a day of feeding once a week sometimes twice.

Ok ..great that you want to get your phosphates under control..but I guess this is the part that bugs me...my fish KNOW it's me who is going to give them food everyday...they don;t go nuts when someone else walks in the room...and since I have multiple tanks when I walk in with the food cup in hand the fish race to the front glass as they know they are going to eat. I feed one tank, turn around and there is the next group all excited (by their movements anyway)waiting for their food. Yeah, yeah..some say they aren't intelligent but they do get hungry and maybe they feel hunger like we do.. we may never know but I dont want to take that chance...
Please feed your fish on a daily basis..even if it's a little less than usual. They are a 'captive' audience..and there is not point in stressing them by not feeding. There are other methods of reducing nutrients

JMHO...

 

[cthoughts1]

very well said Kathy... Hey, this is a little off topic, but what did you do with that big red stuffed lobster? lol.. I may have to borrow it to scare away my hippo tang... He's always at the glass waiting for food and he hogs as much of it up as he can.. Talk about "hungry, hungry hippo".. lol

 

[wallysworld]

Kathy,

I too sit and watch my fish everyday. I even have names for them. I donated a French Angel to AMW years ago after raising him from the size of a Dime. He was 11 years old when I donated him. AMW had him for about 4 years. In that time I would visit with my son and beleive it or not "Frenchy" as we called him would come right up to the glass to greet my son Zach. He later was shipped to the Baltimore aquarium.
For that 11 years I had the same 9 fish in a 125 fish only. I did a lot of research to figure out the best diet when to feed... I found that fish do not always need food however they will always eat. So I didn't see any problem with not feeding for a day. Remember they are not at some huge aquarium where they swim around as if they were in the ocean for long distances and therefore have the need to store calories.
I didn't do this to keep my parameters in check when it was fish only. I did it because it made my fish healthier. But that is what worked for me. I don't mean to say everyone should do this its just a suggestion of what worked for me.

Sorry if I offended you.

BTW, I also got all my food 20yrs ago from the Oriental market seaweeds... the quality of food is just as important as how often you feed.

Walter

 

[KathyC]

Hey Walter..no offense taken at all and thank you for sharing your story about Frenchy, I'm sure that must have been a thrill for your and your son! I do know that fish don't necessarily find food each day out in the ocean, not a 'meal' as they might like to have but I feel that since we do have control over that and we will never know for certain just how much fish do 'feel', I'd prefer to err on the side of kindness to them since they are in my care.
I must assume they feel pain as I watched one who scraped his side the other day flashing against the sand to try and 'remove' what was irritating him (he has since healed). I would have to doubt that he understood what was bothering him, but he knew there was an issue, so I imagine they do feel pain.As I'd mentioned earlier you can visually see how they react when I come into the room with the cup I feed out of, that they know what it in it as they do not react the same if I carry in a different cup with a beverage for myself.
I also have 2 old Oscars and they clearly react to much that goes on around them. If I move furniture near their tank..they pout. They will literally sit on the bottom of the tank facing backwards to show their displeasure for me 'changing' what is in their environment..and that behavior has been well documented.
We have a lot of visual signs that we can see in our tanks..Harley owners know to go and get their shrimp a starfish to eat when the Harley sits at the front of the tank, so I have to imagine hunger is also felt (and it would make sense anyway...).
I know I don't like being hungry and tend to believe that the fish are better off not being put in that position. After a meal they seem more content to swim about investigating their 'world' at not such a frantic pace, and that to me says they are not as stressed. Since we know that stressed fish tend to have weakened immune systems, it is one facet that I have control over, so I don't like to skip a day of feeding, but that is my take on it and obviously your past success has been clearly demonstrated to work also and I applaud you for taking such fine care of your fish as proven by their longevity!

With so many reef keepers here who at times struggle with parameters and the associated challenges of our tanks, I lean more towards suggesting other means of nutrient reduction than skipping feedings entirely since we have so many options available to us
One great thing about this hobby is there is often more than one way to do something right!!

Hmmm...might be time to revive that thread in the Nudibar about what names we have chosen for our fish

 

[Killerdrgn]

I must assume they feel pain as I watched one who scraped his side the other day flashing against the sand to try and 'remove' what was irritating him (he has since healed).

Actually according to PETA they do indeed feel pain, hence their attempts to stop fishing.

http://www.fishinghurts.com/

 

[wallysworld]

Pain is the most basic teacher and without it I don't think fish would survive very long.
If we are not sure if fish actually think and understand lets look at the fact.
We sit in an office of some sort everyday sometimes even weekends in a small box (relative to our size) working to make money to buy stuff and support our families.:tired:

Fish get to swim around where ever they want and have an office we could only wish for. :fish: Ok getting eaten kind of sucks but atleast you don't have to worry about a mortgage payment...

btw, When I had Frenchy I was an Iron worker and used to be home by 3:00 everyday. If I got home late there would be a small puddle of water on the floor infront of the tank. My wife watched Frenchy one day while I was running late and she saw him come up to the top of the tank at about 3:05 and start splashing water.
"I would not beleive it if she didn't see it" she told me.
I also had a Bamboo banded cat shark named Snoopy that we used to pet everyday like a dog. Crazy I know!
I'm coming back as a fish or a bird

Thanks,

 

[Domboski]

[FONT=&quot]http://www.videosift.com/video/Man-Catches-Marlin-with-his-BARE-HANDS


[/FONT]

 

[wallysworld]

LOL... and all this time I've been using a fishing pole.

Ok, So who's got the helicopter? I'd like to catch a striper like that!!

That was cool... Thanks Dom