Bye Bye Skimmer, Hello Canister Filter

[tosiek]

I don't think having a canister is the sole reason it will be more beneficial. I think having a canister and agitating the rocks to stir up detritus so the canister can filter it out will be what works. I'm not a skimmer expert but I don't think that stirring up the detritus into your water column while running a skimmer actually pulls alot of that detritus out. Yes the skimmer will pull out more because of the agitation, but as far as I know skimmers don't really work that way. However with a canister filter it will at least catch and contain it. By doing that and then cleaning it I am more effectively pulling out the detritus. I spent 3-4 months trying this out with my in tank fluval and i noticed that I pulled out alot more gunk.

Detritus is detritus and if it resides in my canister or in my rocks it doesn't matter. But if I can contain it in my canister, at least I can remove it more easily. My informal test was to stir it up and pull it out. Do it on a weekly basis and there won't be any effective dead spots. It's been working so far.

People tend to blow their rocks and sometimes stir their sand if they aren't working with a DSB, but usually with a filter sock, and it does help with water quality if your able to remove the majority the stuff you kick up. Your right the skimmer does crap really in removing whatever your blowing into your water. Too much will settle before it goes through the skimmer for it to actually work well enough.

I used to stir up my sand and rocks every week or two and let my filter sock soak it all up. Tank was doing better P04/trate wise after doing so for a few weeks.

I think the canister will work out fine, your bioload fish wise is really low and i doubt your feeding like crazy. There's more than one way to skin a cat =0) Keep us posted on the results and stuff.

See now this is the type of post I was looking for.

=) what you mean?

BURN IN HELL CANISTER USER! YOUR GONNA KILL EVERYTHING! :tub:

Sadly someones still gonna read this post, say they could do it, and not modify the contents of their canister and think everythings ok :irked:

 

[Aqua Pro Builder]

I second most of what Tosiek said except I think the filter sock does not apply to your case since it looks as if you are running sumpless and I wonder how one would implement a filter sock in display tank.

I also second your observation about skimmer does not pull out much detritus even when you stir the sand and such.

 

[Deanos]

Don't forget the pictures. Nothing like truly documenting changes that occur.

 

[greggnyce]

It is possible that combined your skimmer and canister filter were getting the job done in your system. Removing one may unbalance what seems to be a working system. Why take the risk?

 

[waltercat]

It is possible that combined your skimmer and canister filter were getting the job done in your system. Removing one may unbalance what seems to be a working system. Why take the risk?

Yeah I thought about that but but I am moving soon so the skimmer really won't work with my setup, unless hang lights from the ceiling.

I wish I could do a sump and overflow and fuge under the tank, but it just isn't feasible in my current living situation. I do plan on going all out once I settle down in a house or something. But that could be a while.

I'm not familiar with filter socks. Is that just something you put in your sump to catch detritus?

 

[greggnyce]

I hear you, I went through the same thing before we purchased our house. Moving tanks sux.

 

[BZOFIQ]

oh noooo

 

[Aqua Pro Builder]

Gunk Management

Waltercat,

The following pics are for you to consider your experiment
1st pic: Skimmer size vs the tank(29G) volume
2nd pic: gunk skimmed after two days for couple times stirring of the gunk at the bottom
3rd pic: gunk left on one corner of the tank
4th pic: gunk left on the corner of the tank

Please detail how much effort using your canister method, so that I can objectively record the difference.

 

[BZOFIQ]

Waltercat,

The following pics are for you to consider your experiment
1st pic: Skimmer size vs the tank(29G) volume
2nd pic: gunk skimmed after two days for couple times stirring of the gunk at the bottom
3rd pic: gunk left on one corner of the tank
4th pic: gunk left on the corner of the tank

Please detail how much effort using your canister method, so that I can objectively record the difference.

am I missing something.

A. Your skimmer skims water, either brand new or not properly adjusted.

B. Obviously the filter will do better at catching gunk that isn't dissolved in the water. Problem is whatever skimmer takes out is well completely out, while whatever canister filter takes out, is not out at all.

 

[Aqua Pro Builder]

Response in blue

am I missing something.

A. Your skimmer skims water, either brand new or not properly adjusted. The water is not due to adjustment. It's due to I tilted the skimmer when trying to take pic and the water level change and thus rushing up the neck of the skimmer.

B. Obviously the filter will do better at catching gunk that isn't dissolved in the water. Problem is whatever skimmer takes out is well completely out, while whatever canister filter takes out, is not out at all. The pics are not meant to make a conclusion yet until more data are compiled. I would wait for walter to supply pics and description of the tank progress before drawing conclusion. The pics are meant to deal with "gunk mangement" more than "which filter is better for reef" By isolation topics one by one, we can understand the technology better in question. If we mix ALL aspects together we can never understand each technology well enough.

 

[HHaase]

In all honesty, I'm not sure about how great a canister is for this application. I love them for fresh water running a variety of mechanical media, and they really can make the water extremely clear. Not quite diatom clear, but close. But to do it right does take a lot of mechanical media in layers. Last one I was running had a layer of bio-rings, followed by a coarse pad, then a basket packed tight with loose floss. The loose floss is what really polished everything up, the other stuff caught the big stuff to keep the floss from clogging up. But this 6" tall column of floss and bio-rings is where all your nitrates will come from, as the detrius caught in there breaks down. And it takes a while to service this much media effectively, usually 20 minutes or so. When you're doing a planted freshwater tank, and the nitrates are a good thing, you only service it every couple weeks or so. But you will be doing this much more often for a reef tank.

They also give you a lot of versatility in what chemical medias you can run, but you still have to bag it up before putting it in the baskets. Realistically, a reactor with loose media is a lot more efficient. You just don't get the surface exposure and flow with bagged media, and a lot of water either flows around the bag or only see's the media in the outer layer. Very little water flows through the center, i'd say a canister is only marginally more efficient in chemical media than tossing the bags into your sump.

Another drawback is that you are going to lose a lot of flow-rate with a canister if you run it below the tank, they just don't flow much water compared to a reef sized pump. So you are going to have to find some way of replacing that flow in the tank. And this doesn't factor in the intakes being blocked up over time. You wouldn't believe how much crud a canister intake can build up in a short amount of time.

I can see the positive uses of a closed-loop filtration system, but if I were to do that style system again for saltwater I would use a media reactor and pump. If you really want mechanical filtration on there too, you could look at the lifegard aquatics mechanical modules with a micron cartridge.

And I would still run a skimmer. Pulling the raw muck out of the water totally is definitely more efficient than breaking it down over time in the canister, which is the fuel for the nitrogen cycle that canisters cause. I wouldn't run anything else for freshwater mechanical filtration (possibly add a phosban reactor to run carbon), but I'm just not a fan for reef work.

-Hans

 

[waltercat]

I put a couple of bags of carbon in my canister today and that was a total pain. I haven't dealt with carbon in 10 years or so and I forgot how much it needs to be rinsed before it can be used. Blah.

I also did some water test. My first test showed traces of ammonia and I kinda freaked. I then tested the water 3 more times and each was 0. Not sure why the first test showed, maybe there was some residue in my test tube.

When I changed out the carbon I noticed that most of the gunk was inside the canister rather than the flosses. I wasn't expecting that so what I probably will do is dump the entire contents of the filter or pour it through a mesh to get all that floating stuff out. Maybe I'll just make that a reason to do a small water change.

As for this being an experiment, I can't garuantee anything too scientific. I'll do my best to document, but it will pretty much just be that, documentation. Thanks for all your interest in this little adjustment I made to my tank. I'm still considering running my skimmer. After all I own it and it doesn't do any harm to the tank.

 

[Deanos]

I guess no "before" pictures after all :sad2:

 

[waltercat]

I'll have some "few days into it" pictures. It will be pretty much the same as it was before I installed the canister. My girlfriend just got a nice camera so I'll be able to take some good close up pics of the rocks. Show you the amount of algae in my tank.

It's really not that bad of an algae problem, so don't expect any horror shows

 

[ReeferMadness99]

Am I wrong but my 2 Overflows have Opening slits on the top for surface skimming, AND middle and bottom for sucking in debris from the water column. Anything that is missed by my recirculating protein skimmer should be caught by the 4 layers of filtration in my sump (coarse filter that my overflow first lands on, coarse filter after the refugium, carbon with filter floss and fine filter pad in the last acrylic chamber before the return chamber). Isn't that the same as putting in a sucking canister tube? I mean, maybe the canister sucks a little harder than the middle and bottom overflow openings but if you have adequate power heads flowing your tank, a little stir and everything should go into the column in the overflows.

Vodka dosing also makes the water clearer than any carbon or canister can. Diatom free.

 

[Deanos]

Vodka dosing clears the water? Please explain how.

 

[ReeferMadness99]

The ideology behind Vodka dosing is introducing an organic carbon rather than an inorganic carbon such as activated carbon media. Organic carbon compounds will bond to phosphates, nitrates, and virtually all debris, as the carbon molecule is one of the most volatile bonding agents in chemistry (i'm not a chemist but this is what I read and witness in my tank). When you Vodka dose properly (look it up on these forums) you will see your protein skimmer produce 2-3 times the amount of skimmate it normally does. This is why you have to monitor your SPS for bleaching because the water clarity becomes so clear that light penetration increases.

There are definitely people much more qualified here that can give you a better answer but that as far as my reading has taken me.

 

[waltercat]

Am I wrong but my 2 Overflows have Opening slits on the top for surface skimming, AND middle and bottom for sucking in debris from the water column. Anything that is missed by my recirculating protein skimmer should be caught by the 4 layers of filtration in my sump (coarse filter that my overflow first lands on, coarse filter after the refugium, carbon with filter floss and fine filter pad in the last acrylic chamber before the return chamber). Isn't that the same as putting in a sucking canister tube? I mean, maybe the canister sucks a little harder than the middle and bottom overflow openings but if you have adequate power heads flowing your tank, a little stir and everything should go into the column in the overflows.

Vodka dosing also makes the water clearer than any carbon or canister can. Diatom free.

Yeah this is a great setup you have, I just don't have the space in or out of tank for 2 overflow boxes and a sump.

"AND middle and bottom for sucking in debris from the water column." What do you mean by this? Are these intakes? Can you post some pics of your set up.

As for vodka, I have been intrigued by that lately. I need to do some more research on it.

 

[ReeferMadness99]

Well, the overflow chamber is separated from the actual tank with another thin acrylic layer. Thats where the slits are for the water to flow into it. There are slits on the bottom, middle and top. as water fills in this thin acrylic layer, it creates an updraft of water column until it spills over into the main overflow chamber. So the water is actually first filling a thin chamber (maybe 1/2" thick) before it actually overflows into the main chamber. This creates a constant upflow of water from the bottom to the top of the outer layer. Thats why debris enters the waterflow from each level of slits.

 

[BZOFIQ]

am I missing something.

A. Your skimmer skims water, either brand new or not properly adjusted. The water is not due to adjustment. It's due to I tilted the skimmer when trying to take pic and the water level change and thus rushing up the neck of the skimmer.

B. Obviously the filter will do better at catching gunk that isn't dissolved in the water. Problem is whatever skimmer takes out is well completely out, while whatever canister filter takes out, is not out at all. The pics are not meant to make a conclusion yet until more data are compiled. I would wait for walter to supply pics and description of the tank progress before drawing conclusion. The pics are meant to deal with "gunk mangement" more than "which filter is better for reef" By isolation topics one by one, we can understand the technology better in question. If we mix ALL aspects together we can never understand each technology well enough.

I don't think you've really responded to my query.

A. There is hardly any skimmate produced by your skimmer. If I had a skimmer produce this much I'd also think a canister might just be a better idea. IT IS NOT!

Anybody who thinks that a canister is going to work in a reef tank either doesn't understand the way the skimmer works or pretends that nitrogen cycle doesn't exist.

Take a look at these pictures. This is my cup from a Turboflotor (no frills, off shelf) skimmer.

clean cup that will look like pic #1 in little over 24 hours.

Whatever you see in the cup, is completely out of the system. A canister will have to "digest" this amount into ammonia then nitrite and then nitrate, compounding high nitrates problem. In freshwater applications, canister is a perfect filter because freshwater inhabitants are not as sensitive to elevated levels of nitrate and water changes are relatively easier. You can easily dump 80-90% of the water, fill it up and be fine, something you wouldn't do in a salt water setup as means of nitrate export.



B. You are comparing apples to oranges. One is never going to be better than the other because they serve completely different purpose, it's like comparing SUV with a sports car.