might be a sensitive subject

[imported_June]

hey hey the radio activity will quadriple the size of our corals and mutate them creating new species of corals.....and then your going have to swap with the democrats in order to get them

lol

 

[Hitsnorth]

What?s scary is that we now have a republican president, house, senate and how many Supreme Court nominations? Our supreme court over the years has become more and more conservative. Bush will nominate another conservative(Obviously!) and then the scales are tipped. Now Congress will be free to pass whatever laws they want stem cell research, abortion, gay marriage, flag burning and there is nobody in the supreme court that will overturn that.

Lets not forget about the patriot act. How many terrorists went to jail under the patriot act? 0? How many drug dealers? How many innocent people were spied on, harassed, thrown in jail(Countless!) Ashcroft said to congress he would use it as a tool against terrorists. If someone has an example of where it was applied to terrorists I am all ears. Its further erosion of a freedom is what it is.

One of the core reasons I could not in good conscious vote for Bush(and especially Cheney) is the fact that we were lied to and mislead. Saddam was not an imminent threat. We should have had hard evidence he was an imminent threat before we start killing people(and having our own people killed as well). I am much more concerned about North Korea and our 50k troops sitting there waiting to be slaughtered. Do you think we can handle a war in Korea today? They have nuclear weapons, Saddam might have had them in a few years. Can we handle something happening in Korean? even close we are stretched so thin. I served in the military, I was in war I saw firsthand the destruction it causes to civilians and the stresses it causes on our own military personnel. There is a draft going on today, our reservists are being used as active duty personnel. What happens when something else happens in the world(Or worse here at home) not only is our military stretched thin, but now we have no reserves. Our military is demoralized and you will see the effects of that in a few years when we will be unable to sustain a volunteer only army.

Ok that was quite the rant.. Glad I got that off my chest! Feel free to rip me apart

 

[alrha]

well we do live in a democracy, so apparantly most of the people in this country have chosen conservative leaders. this is not something bush has done, this is what the people want.
as far as waiting for the evidence before attacking iraq? where do you want the evidence? at the empire state building? or capitol hill?
N korea is obviously a more delicate issue since we are not really in the mood for a nuclear war. also note that it was Arab Terrorists that attacked us, not korean.

 

[chrisl1]

Well since you asked for it, lol The only thing I'm going to comment on there is Saddam, basically I'm too tired to keep this going. Whether it was a personal vendetta of Bush, or Weapons of Mass destruction that were moved in the nick of time before our inspectors had found them, it really does not matter. The fact is he is a murderer. he needed to go down. they should have torched him when they had the chance.and the war on terror being fought there is really where it needs to be, we dont need another disaster here.

 

[imported_June]

still in my opinion there are bigger threats in the world then saddam hussein....like hitsnorth pointed out...north korea is still a big threat, and many other nations pose a big threat.......Saudi arabia is a threat! ;0)

 

[Hitsnorth]

Your drawing the line between Saddam Hussein and the world trade center. The fact is Saddam never attacked the US. The fact is Saddam had nothing to do with what happened Sept 11th. The fact is most of them were Saudi Arabians. The fact is Bin Laden was no lover of Saddam they did not work together. Was Saddam a murderer yes. Is the world better off without him? Yes. Was he the biggest threat in the world? HELL NO.

We did Iran a huge favor. We took out the Taliban and Iraq. The balance of power in that region has shifted. Syria and Iran are now the dominant forces outside of Israel. Iraq had already been diminished to nothing after the first gulf war. Does this make us safer? There are more terrorists there today then there were before the war. Saddam didnt tolerate anything he wasnt in control of. Now there is Chaos and terrorists are recruiting at an unprecedented rate.

You say we should have killed him when we had a chance I assume your referring to the first gulf war and the mandate was to push Iraq out of Kuwait not take over Iraq and not to Kill Saddam Hussein. We accomplished that.

I was all for invading Iraq, but not under false pretenses. We told the world(Colin Powel at UN) that we knew for a fact he had weapons of mass destruction and that he was an imminent threat to our security. Thats crap. That he tried to kill Bush's father? Ok thats grounds for war! That he sent money to suicide bombers in Israel again thats grounds for war. Lets just be very clear about our reasons for doing what we do. Ok so now we are there so no second guessing what we did or why(although we can be critical of the reasons). Now how are we making the region safer? Democracy in Iraq? Is that the plan and hope it spreads throughout the region? The amount of influence in Iraq by Syria and Iran now will make a democracy there a joke.. But thats my opinion not a fact.

 

[Hitsnorth]

Albert we arent in the mood for a nuclear war? But we are allowing N Korea to build more nuclear weapons day by day. And test missile system that will eventually reach our shores. We might not be in the mood but N Korea is crumbling under its own weight. It has built up its military over the years. It has no choice but to use it. Their entire economy depends on it. That we isolated them has had a devastating effect on the country. His father invade S Korea. He has expressed the view that he believes Korea should be one again(just like his father) and has built up a military to the point of bankrupting his country unless they take S Korea.

So when will we be in the mood for nuclear war? After they take out our 50k troops on the line and we scramble to draft people to try and take back S Korea? I guess we will be in the mood then.

 

[alrha]

hitsnorth, i agree with much of what you say. while syria and iran should be next on the list, the events in iraq might open their eyes as a warning shot to the region. hey, look at Lybia.
as far as the WMD, i dont think the administration was outright lying, its just a difficult situation and you have to rely on what inteligence you have, american inteligence is not the best, its not the mossad, but you have to work with what you have. after all, saddam even bluffed his own generals into believing he had WMD. and till today, while we are assuming he never had them, it is still possible that they have been moved across the border.

 

[alrha]

hits, i agree that something needs to be done about N Korea, but just like with iraq we will be blamed for starting another war. its not a matter of a couple of cruise missles in the middle east with a country that can never retaliate against our homeland. starting with N Korea could be giving up our entire west coast. it may need to be done, but if there is anyway to do it without losing california (after all, its a blue state, so you need it) then obviously that would be better. the missle defense shield wouldnt hurt either.

 

[chrisl1]

" The fact is Saddam never attacked the US. The fact is Saddam had nothing to do with what happened Sept 11th. The fact is most of them were Saudi Arabians. The fact is Bin Laden was no lover of Saddam they did not work together" Saddam and Bin laden had no ties, he had nothing to do with 9/11 hard to believe.

"Iraq had already been diminished to nothing after the first gulf war. Does this make us safer? There are more terrorists there today then there were before the war"
If there are more terrorists there today it is because the job was never finished to begin with, if Clinton did not dessimate our intelligence and military maybe Bush woud have not had to go in and do a clean up.

"You say we should have killed him when we had a chance I assume your referring to the first gulf war and the mandate was to push Iraq out of Kuwait not take over Iraq and not to Kill Saddam Hussein. We accomplished that."
No I am referring to when he was taken into custody.
heres is the bottom line your so called facts are not actual facts, they are your opinion, Im not going to reply to all opinion based statements here there is not enough time in the day to keep that going. it's your opinion I respect it, but don't agree in the least.

 

[Hitsnorth]

Open who's eyes? They hate us more today then they did before. They want what Iraq has now? No security? Who are we fooling?

I said mislead not lied. They can find analysts who will say they have weapons of mass destruction. The fact is the weapons inspectors said they dont believe he has them. Was he fully cooperative no.

Thats an intersting point you made about American Intelligence not being on par with Mossad. They warned us for YEARS about Bin Laden. We know about many many things in the region why wasnt our intelligence better there? Why are we still watching the Russians and worried about them. Why didnt we invest more into the real threats to our security being the middle east until we had to.

Another interesting thing you mention. Why was Saddam bluffing that he still had WMD? Because of Iran! He was afraid of Iran and the influence they had in the region and thats why he insinuted he still had them.

We supported Saddam Hussein during the Carter/Reagan years and he certainly was producing and using WMD then. I will never forget looking on a radar scope and seeing an enemy f-14 flying towards us.

 

[Hitsnorth]

Chris the lack of connection between Saddam and Bin Laden was stated by the 911 commision who did investigate(And certainly had an interest in finding ANY tie) so I stated that as fact based on that. If you have evidence of a tie between Iraq and Bin Laden I suggest you call your local Cia office and let them know about it because they are missing that piece of information.

Yes Clinton is absolutely to blame for our military being diminished. I was in the military during the Clinton years and saw it happening all around me. Was very short sighted but the fact was we didnt need the same kind of military to fight the russians anymore. To Rumsfelds credit he identified that when he started and has worked to change that. More special forces, urban warfare,etc,etc.

Albert, you assume im a democrat im not. I am a republican but I did vote for Kerry.

 

[chrisl1]

"Chris the lack of connection between Saddam and Bin Laden was stated by the 911 commision who did investigate(And certainly had an interest in finding ANY tie) so I stated that as fact based on that. If you have evidence of a tie between Iraq and Bin Laden I suggest you call your local Cia office and let them know about it because they are missing that piece of information."


Just because there is no proof of the two meeting somewhere over a beer to discuss the destruction of the US , that doesnt mean they were not connected, the terrorists have their own communications. A commitee of the 911 commision is able to determine that?? I dont see how, If the WMD were hidden and not found , Bin laden is hiding and not found, what makes you think the allpowerful 911 commission can break the mystery of the bin laden -hussein connection. that report is toilet paper as far as that goes, in my opinion. I wish I had the evidence to stop all this insanity. I am glad we at least agree on teh Clinton part.

 

[danny]

Just a little mondern day history lesson President Clinton gave North Korea nuclear materials to be used for energy (oops) they built nuclear weapons, Senator Kerry has stated that he would give Iran nuclear materials for energy use & monitor this terrorist country to make sure they do not build nuclear weapons (oops) they built nuclear weapons. If that happened you could forget about this planet.
I voted the way I voted because like many new yorkers I lost a friend who worked at Kantor Fitzgerald & I do not want one of my kids to die from some coward terrorist who target women & children. Wake up to what's happening in the world. The economy & the moral issues do not mean anything if the terrorist win!!!!

I was a registered democrat & voted for carter one of the worst voting mistakes ever!!!!
I am the baby boomer swing vote a reagan democrat maybe the democratic party which has been taken over by socialist will find a presidential candidate that will run on his voting record & not change what he stands for because he is running for president. Their are Democrats & Republicans who vote along party lines no matter what the candidates say but it is the reagan democrats that vote based on what they have done. I will not vote for someone who would say one thing when running for president & his voting record says something else.

I'm sorry for the long response but I have the same garbage at work. get over it you lost & keeps our fingers crossed that there isn't something worse than 911 coming.

danny

 

[marrone]

Ah the old "they hid the WMD defense". Lets face it there wasn't any there and from the look of the country, everything was broken down and old, the sanctions were working pretty well. There was no reason to attack Iraq as there was other big fish to go after. Lets face it we took our eye off the real treats and have not created a situation that we're going to be in for years to come. Iraq is now one big welfare state. All of this was because Bush that had no plan, once we defeat Iraq, to do with the country. All of this was done out of Bush wanting their oil and to get back at Saddam for his father.

It's funny everyone alway blaming Clinton, but the last time I look Bush was in office for 8 months when the attack at the WTC happen. And if your going to blame Clinton for that then you need to give him credit for the military that won the wars because if Bush couldn't make a difference in intelligence in that time he couldn't have changed the military in that time either.

Lets face it there will never be any dem. in any of those mid east countries. In time Afgan. and Iraq will go back to being under 1 rule who will have power over everything. That "bring Dem. to the area so it can spread" is just a bullshit reason because they couldn't fine any WMD so they had to keep changing their tune.

Everything that has happened over there is our own falt as we continue to play sides with these countries and eventually it did come back to bite
us. Until we get away from oil, which will not happen with this admin. becasue of their ties in the oil business, we going to have problems.

 

[Hitsnorth]

Because honestly Saddam Hussein was a bad Arab and Bin Laden openly disliked him. After we invaded Iraq he response to his position on Iraq was. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. He did not like Saddam Hussein and his fundamentalist ideology would not be consistent with Saddam. This argument is really moot, I was simply responding to you saying I was stating an opinion and I guess if you feel the 911 commissions findings and the CIA?s finding aren?t worth anything then it is an opinion.

Im not even arguing that we should have invaded Iraq. My argument was that we needed to do it for legitimate reasons. Reasons we knew we could prove. If we said we are invading them because they had WMD then we better damn well know he has them and where they are. We didn?t and said we did and now we have egg on our face. To be honest when Saddam Hussein openly said he would pay money to families of suicide bombers that?s enough for me. The minute Saddam fired a shot at one of our planes? Declare war based on that again that?s enough for me. We had no fly zones we were enforcing and if he shoots at a US military plane then that?s enough for me. World opinion is different and I assume you think its ok for Bush to make a false accusation as a pretense for war for the better good.. The ends justify the means? That?s what I have issues with. We cannot tell the world we are going to war because he has WMD and then say oh well he didn?t have them. But aren?t we better off now? Be honest, be up front about what we are doing. My real issue lies in the fact that he did mislead Americans and the world by what he did. We never had hard facts Saddam had WMD we had evidence. Tenet when he appeared before congress said so. They never signed off on Iraq having WMD?s. So it wasn?t even based on American Military Intelligence. What they did was take some analysis in the CIA?s report and some analysts in MI6 that said what they wanted to hear and they reported that as facts. That?s not the way intelligence works. You have to look at all the facts and they didn?t add up. We rushed to war based on false accusations and misleading statements from our leaders. I would be much happier if we just said to hell with France to Hell with Germany we are going to war with Iraq because they shot at our planes. Period. We have proof we have a reason and then the war is legitimate.

I do blame Clinton for destroying our military. While he was cutting it he was throwing us in Sudan, Kosovo, Iraq. It was a bad time to be in the military let me tell you. You were never home(Im sure similiar to the way it is today!

I think afghanistan is a huge success if it can be held together it can be used as a model for democracy there. Israel is a democracy and Turkey is close to being one.

Im not sore Kerry lost, I am disappointed I found Kerry to be the lesser of 2 evils to be honest. I would fight alongside Kerry before I would trust Bush.

 

[imported_June]

;0) i dtill say there are bigger threats to the U.S. then Iraq....just like you guys been stating.....i personally am scared of N. Korea....i can honestly say they have more people in the military then the U.S.....their military is atleast 1 million strong....all their funds go towards the military everything is based on the military over there, and now with "nukes" in their hands.....Wow a very scary site....my opinion is everything needs 2 get handled quick....the ties with allies need to be bonded strong again.... or not 2 jinx it....prepare for a WW3..in the comming years.....for the next president after Bush's term ...would have to fix the problems Bush has done....and i agree with hitsnorth once again...the lesser of 2 evils would've probably been better

 

[imported_June]

hey im also glad i started this topic...its great to see/read other peoples opinions on this matter......you guys rock!...lol

 

[House of Laughter]

6 pages and counting

Good stuff - pansi-ass politicians

Clearly you all missed your day at Mock debate

Kidding

Good stuff

House

 

[imported_June]

lol.....hey what you guys think our debate is better then the 1 kerry n bush had...lol