Set up a QT in 3 days

[marrone]

Yes and having a good biological filter makes life much easier.

For a QT you can get by with a less of a one, as you're doing more water changes, then again what does it matter if you're running a tank all the time.

I disagree and you still have not said why exactly its a bad idea other than it may not be necessary. Cupramine and Prazipro isn't that expensive, i can swing it.

You still don't get that treating health fish with medication isn't a good idea. Not only does it stress them out but it can kill them, also if the fish does have something there is a good chance you're not treating them with the correct medication.

By the way, what does price have to do with anything?

The purpose of QT to protect the fish in my tank, not the new fish. I don't care if it is needed or not, it's a preemptive treatment and I havnt had any fish die from my practice.

Yes it is to protect the fish is your main tank but it's also to give the fish down time and check to see if they have something and then treat. Remember you're quarantining the fish and then if it has something you're changing the tank into a hospital tank and treat with the correct medicine. You don't care but you're treating for something that the fish mayn't have. You mayn't have had any fish die from doing this but others have.

Giving them time to "settle in" actually has nothing to do with the definition of quarantine. And like i said, I have time to treat with the correct medication if Cupramine and Prazipro is not the correct medication.

It doesn't from the dictionary term, which I know from another thread you posted in you like to use, but a QT is used also to give fish a settling in period, something you know full well. Once again you just don't get that treating health fish with medication, for thing that they mayn't have, isn't a good thing. And if you have time to treat them with the correct medication you should do that when you determine the fish has something and not just throwing in any medication into the tank from the start. I guess you just don't see what you're doing is wrong.

Who am I to judge what a so-called expert has to say? His reasoning was in a newly setup QT tank, the ammonia can go bad so fast the indicator is always looking for elevated levels and you can get a quick warning even if you don't happen to be testing that particular time of day.

And how many people do you see using those things? If you don't over stock the tank, feed lightly, and do water changes the ammonia wouldn't be a problem, then again if you have a fully cycled tank running all the time it doesn't matter does it.

 

[Wes]

Marrone, with all due respect I'll stick to what Stephen Pro says and you continue to practice what you like. You say preemptive treatment is bad, Stephen recommends it...

Waikiki Aquarium also preemptively medicates all of their fish while in quarantine.

You are a moderator on a message board...

 

[marrone]

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/sp/feature/index.php

I occasionally employ preventative treatment even when an infection may not have been noticed and I would recommend others do the same. The reason for this is some fish are routinely plagued by certain diseases. Many hobbyists miss the signs, or, even if they see initial signs, they often misdiagnose the malady and use the wrong treatment. Or, by the time they realize something is wrong and get the right medication, the fish is too sick to be saved. Because of that, I propose certain blanket treatment protocols for some fish. For instance, any surgeonfish/tangs that I import go through a hyposalinity treatment because of their propensity to be infected with Marine Ich/Cryptocaryon irritans. Also, I give all wild-caught clownfish a formalin bath in case they harbor Brooklynella, a common condition called "clownfish disease." I also recommend adding garlic to the food of all quarantined fish as a general immune system stimulant (Colorni, et al. 1998) and as a de-worming agent (Fairfield, 1996 and Jedlicki, pers. comm.).


A well-stocked and organized medicine chest will go a long way in helping aquarists treat a
quarantined fish should the need arise. Photo by Steven Pro of Kelly Jedlicki?s fish medicine chest.
Unlike fish prophylaxis, I don't recommend any preventative treatment for the invertebrates I purchase. I don't freshwater dip, iodine dip, or use any sort of commercial bath on any of my corals. I don't believe we hobbyists understand nor can we properly identify most coral pathogens or pests, so I use only close, careful observation over time during the quarantine of corals. If something can later be identified, such as pest flatworms, Acropora copepods, or any other pests, it is far better to deal with it in the quarantine tank where there is no possibility of spreading it to other specimens or of collateral damage to beneficial fauna in the display from the treatment.

Lets see for 2004, quite some time ago, then again most things have been around for quite some time.

Did you read what you just posted? Doing preventative treatment, or blanketing treatments for certain fish, isn't going to keep them strong if you're treating them for something that they don't have. Until you find out what they actually have, and then treat with the correct medication, it doesn't matter, if anything you're only stressing the fish out more with the medication you're using. This will only make them weaker. You do get that concept don't you? I know Steve Pro likes to do fresh water dips, though he's admitted that they don't do much but he had success since he's used them so he keeps doing them.



By the way isn't this the place that told you to use the Ammonia Alert?

 

[Wes]

Lets see for 2004, quite some time ago, then again most things have been around for quite some time.

Did you read what you just posted? Doing preventative treatment, or blanketing treatments for certain fish, isn't going to keep them strong if you're treating them for something that they don't have. Until you find out what they actually have, and then treat with the correct medication, it doesn't matter, if anything you're only stressing the fish out more with the medication you're using. This will only make them weaker. You do get that concept don't you? I know Steve Pro likes to do fresh water dips, though he's admitted that they don't do much but he had success since he's used them so he keeps doing them.



By the way isn't this the place that told you to use the Ammonia Alert?

I understand your theory. But it's Your theory with no supportive data that unnecessary Cupramine and Prazipro treatments somehow damage the fish. I have performed this methodology on several different species with no evidence to support your claims.

That, coupled with what experts in the industry say and standard practice used by public aquariums lead me to believe that you theory holds no water.

No offense that's how I feel and you havnt provided any real info to change my mind. "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" doesn't cut it in this case.


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[marrone]

Marrone, with all due respect I'll stick to what Stephen Pro says and you continue to practice what you like. You say preemptive treatment is bad, Stephen recommends it...

Waikiki Aquarium also preemptively medicates all of their fish while in quarantine.

Last time I look I been in the hobby quite a bite long then Steve Pro, then again you seem to hold people who write articles and stuff in high esteem, though one told you to use that Ammonia Alert, which didn't work out well for you. You'll find in this hobby there are a lot of people who have been doing this for quite sometime, and are very knowledgeable, who don't write books or articles or make their living at it. Just think before the internet came about, there are a lot of people that you hear about now you never heard before, and most have been in the hobby for quite some time. You'll find that a lot of them don't write articles or books but they know what they're talking about.

By the way, I'm sure the Waikiki Aquarium are getting their fish right from the ocean so like collections stations, wholesalers and such they need to treat their fish big time, they probably still lose a bunch too.

You are a moderator on a message board...

And you're just a guy in NC going by what other people tell you to do......

 

[aznt1217]

Hey Jarrett,

I believe the fish you are getting are treated already from the source. Double check with Will on that.

- I think I'm shooting myself in the foot by saying this... but if you're using all established water from your tank... what's the worry with water chemistry and the like?

- Prior to all the treatments, what's going to matter more importantly is your acclimation. If I remember correctly the fish come in Friday PM and are packed in Thursday PM. You are getting it Saturday AM... I assume.

- Make sure you acclimate slowly (and I mean slowwwwwly so the pH steadily adjusts... I would even go as far as 3 hours if not more) and keep the temperature relatively steady. Given that these are Anthias, handle them carefully... you don't want to mess up the swim bladders or have their gills caught in a net or something. Not sure what arrangements you made but... keep it in mind

- Acclimate them to your QT tank, observe the fish for a while, and take it from there. Feed and entice with Arcti pods or Frozen Mysis dipped in Garlic.

 

[Wes]

The thing about a publication is that it tends to get reviewed and scrutinized by everyone. The thing about a guy on a message board who claims to have been in the hobby for a long time is that, he can make up any theory he likes with no real scientific data to back it.

I am just a guy in NC. But obviously I don't just go by what other people say. If that where true I would be out in the garage removing cupramine from the QT.


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[marrone]

I understand your theory. But it's Your theory with no supportive data that unnecessary Cupramine and Prazipro treatments somehow damage the fish. I have performed this methodology on several different species with no evidence to support your claims.

That, coupled with what experts in the industry say and standard practice used by public aquariums lead me to believe that you theory holds no water.

No offense that's how I feel and you havnt provided any real info to change my mind. "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" doesn't cut it in this case.


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You don't know what copper and other medication does to fish? I do find that hard to believe. You also don't see the problem of treating fish for things that they don't have and what effects it does have on the fish.


Once again what experts? People that write articles and books? Who also in most case are in the hobby to make money. You'll find that this is a hobby and most people aren't going to write articles and make case studies on their tanks, even with blogs and the internet. So you're not going to see hard data, it's just not there for the most part, but what you'll see is successful tanks and advise past down to other people who have successful tanks.


Unfortunately I can't change you mind, then again you only seem to go on what you see read, though others will read what I post and use it and have very successful tanks.

 

[aznt1217]

I think it's public knowledge that in this hobby... different things work for different people and there's a plethora of variables as to why.

Seems like the logical thing to do in this case is to observe for problems, and then treat.

 

[marrone]

The thing about a publication is that it tends to get reviewed and scrutinized by everyone. The thing about a guy on a message board who claims to have been in the hobby for a long time is that, he can make up any theory he likes with no real scientific data to back it.

It does? I don't think so. Once again you don't realize that this is a hobby and most people don't do studies on their tanks, it just doesn't happen. Even the people that do post articles don't have real scientific data, most of the time it's just their opinions from doing things over the years.

I am just a guy in NC. But obviously I don't just go by what other people say. If that where true I would be out in the garage removing cupramine from the QT.
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No you go by what other people write in articles, even though the people writing those articles are only a small fraction of the hobby, and yes it is a hobby.

 

[chanman]

I guess I should give myself painkillers when I don't have pain? Theres no evidence to support that it works because I won't give myself pain killers for fun.

anyway, my experience with Will's fish are to acclimate 2+hours and have success!

 

[Wes]

It does? I don't think so. Once again you don't realize that this is a hobby and most people don't do studies on their tanks, it just doesn't happen. Even the people that do post articles don't have real scientific data, most of the time it's just their opinions from doing things over the years.

I am just a guy in NC. But obviously I don't just go by what other people say. If that where true I would be out in the garage removing cupramine from

No you go by what other people write in articles, even though the people writing those articles are only a small fraction of the hobby, and yes it is a hobby.

Marine Biology is a science, not just a hobby. People get phd's in it. Scientific experiments are performed on marine fish every day. Stephen Pro provided references in his article. Where are yours? Surely there is some kind of study you can reference that backs up your claims.

Apparently, I don't follow your advice and I have successful tanks. It's your opinion, not the gospel. People disagree with you. It happens.

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[aznt1217]

Scientific Experiments are exactly what they are... experiments. Stuff can be revised everyday. This, my friend. is fact. Also realize that most Marine Biologists who write these articles base their conclusions on observations utilizing a small sample size (for the most part) and none of them can 100% say they are correct and that it is fact.

Most, if not all of the scientists, admit that there's a lot of stuff that we do not know about marine organisms because of the diversity and sheer amount of variables to consider. Adaptations, heredity of the fish, etc. that affect their behavioral and biological attributes.

Bottom Line: Marrone doesn't need a reference, he has the result. On the flip side, you also have a result. At this point, it's fruitless to continue on this quest to prove that you are some type of super-reefer lol.

To Jarrett: I really hope the previous posts did answer your questions or have something productive come out as a result.

 

[marrone]

Marine Biology is a science, not just a hobby. People get phd's in it. Scientific experiments are performed on marine fish every day. Stephen Pro provided references in his article. Where are yours? Surely there is some kind of study you can reference that backs up your claims.


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But this is a hobby and you'll find a lot of things aren't study and most of the time marine biologist are surprised by what hobbyist are doing in their tanks. Some things they're not even aware of and only find out when they go to look at someone tank. As for references, well there are plenty of them out there, most of the ich ones are actually quite old. But what you don't seem to get is that a lot of the things and advancements in the hobby are by hobbyist who don't write article or do studies, some thing that you just do seem to understand.

By the way, read again what you post by Steve Pro. Tell me if preventative treatment make sense if what you're treating with wouldn't help if the fish doesn't have that parasite or disease. How it will keep the fish strong, even if it's not the right medication.

 

[Wes]

You are correct. There are alot of opinions in this hobby with no real science to back it up. Your opinion is a perfect example.

Cupramine and Prazipro in my experience are very mild treatments. And like I said before, I have observed no "weakness" or any other non-desirable side effect. Until I see that happen I will continue to practice this method...Despite what you think is the best procedure.

I will continue to share all of my failures and sucesses with other people in this hobby...And I will not be silenced by someone who thinks his method is better with no data to back up his claim, moderator or not. My success rate in QT so far has been extremely high.


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[marrone]

You are correct. There are alot of opinions in this hobby with no real science to back it up. Your opinion is a perfect example.

As are the opinions you posted, by the way is Steve Pro a Phd or Marine Biologist? I see in what you posted he did use some references, though they weren't his. By the way this isn't a knock against Steve Pro, just against some of your points.

Cupramine and Prazipro in my experience are very mild treatments. And like I said before, I have observed no "weakness" or any other non-desirable side effect. Until I see that happen I will continue to practice this method...Despite what you think is the best procedure.

What does it have to do with being a very mild treatment? Then again you said it wasn't a problem because it didn't cost much. You're treating fish for things that they mayn't have, very possibly stressing them out and weakening them, and if they do have some thing possibly making it hard to treat them in the end.As for this being the best procedure? I don't think so, it just doesn't make sense to treat a fish for things it doesn't have. Your human comparison to fish doesn't make sense too.

I will continue to share all of my failures and sucesses with other people in this hobby...And I will not be silenced by someone who thinks his method is better with no data to back up his claim, moderator or not. My success rate in QT so far has been extremely high.

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The problem is that they're not yours, you're using what other people tell, and in the case of the ammonia alert, it was wrong. As for not having "data" you just don't get that this is a hobby and most people don't write articles or case studies. As for your success being extremely high, I though it was 100%? As for silent you, well nobody is silent you, just telling you your wrong.

 

[seldin]

I used to run a temporary QT tank, that was just a rubbermaid tub, with a Aqua clear filter and a clip on light. I left the sponge in my sump and was able to setup the QT by just pulling out the tub, doing a water change and dumping the water change water into the tub and take the sponge out of my sump.

Then, when I did not need QT tank, back the setup went into the closet.

A couple of things, for fish QT is usually recommended, except for fish like a mandarin that needs live copepods. Most other fish, QT is highly recommended. As for corals, a coral dip is recommended. I use Coral Revive. You just take a teaspoon of dip, put in 2 cups of salt water and stir with coral for 15 minutes. Then, remove coral and place in tank.

As was stated, a QT tank, can save on your display tank fishes getting things like ich, etc.

One thing, putting 5 fish into a QT at one time, could cause a cycle spike. That is a lot of fish, for a QT. I am assuming you are doing this, to save money on shipping fish. However, it would be better to place fish one at a time in the display tank. Much better to add fish slowly.

The special note is about adding aggressive fish to a tank. Usually, you want to add the most aggressive fish last.


Good luck.

 

[seldin]

One problem, I thought about, is by having a number of additions in QT at the same time, if one fish has a problem, it can spread to the other fish.

Not recommending this, but some LFS, sometimes, treat with copper in the QT tank, for fish only, before placing in display tank. Just because once in display tank, it can be very tough to get a fish out of tank.

Obviously, you are trying to prevent this with the QT tank. However, 2 things I have learned. Patience is the key to this hobby and that anything and everything can go wrong.

I was thinking that because you are placing so many fish in tank, that the QT might want to be at least a couple of weeks.

Please remember, to never place copper in a reef tank. Can kill many prized corals.

 

[beerfish]

I guess I should give myself painkillers when I don't have pain? Theres no evidence to support that it works because I won't give myself pain killers for fun.

anyway, my experience with Will's fish are to acclimate 2+hours and have success!

Not getting involved in the back and forth because I see both sides of the debate, but I will say that painkillers are a bad example as they don't treat anything, they just dull pain. People do get preventative treatments regularly in the form of things like flu shots.