Tank of Death

[aznt1217]

Probably stirred the sandbed up with all that movement. That paired with the new water + salinity change and getting things back up to normal temp all led to the perfect storm.

But hey I'm only guessing.

 

[MIKE NY]

Probably stirred the sandbed up with all that movement. That paired with the new water + salinity change and getting things back up to normal temp all led to the perfect storm.

But hey I'm only guessing.

x2..sorry to hear about your loss, but thats what it sounds like to me too

 

[KathyC]

You said you had to do a large water change to move your tank onto its new stand. Did you drain all of the mature water, discard it, and then replace it with freshly mixed SW? If that's what you did, it caused a cycle.

I'm sorry Janine, but I have to disagree on this. Water alone will not cause a cycle. New water can never be worse than old water, and the fact that the water contains so little of the bacteria would not cause a cycle, especially anything major.

I'm not a big believer that sirring a sandbed releases ammonia, or nitrites or nirtates into a tank..it is already in the tank (IN the sandbed), so it will affect the water parameters even before you stir it up. It will make a mess of things when you stir it but it can't release anything additional to what is already in there.

I'd bet on one of these possibilities:
-In prepping for the change over, he started to mix new SW but used it before he got it to the correct salinity.
- Tried to correct the salinity after the water was back in the DT (by adding salt to the tank)
-Didn't have enough water on hand for the change over and mixed some way too fast and added to the tank before the salt had all dissolved
-Didn't move quickly enough on the tank swap (to the new stand) and the tank surfaces dried out, possibly the sump as well and all of the plumbing lines and that caused a cycle in the tank.

Hope it all bounces back soon Justin! Please do post your parameters.

 

[tentacles]

Kathy, when I went back and read my post I realized I left a huge chunk of information out (MR at work, bad call.) I was thinking, as others have mentioned, that depending how long the rock was out of the water there could have been some die off+ the kicking up of the sandbed into the water column.

I'm sorry Janine, but I have to disagree on this. Water alone will not cause a cycle. New water can never be worse than old water, and the fact that the water contains so little of the bacteria would not cause a cycle, especially anything major.

I'm not a big believer that sirring a sandbed releases ammonia, or nitrites or nirtates into a tank..it is already in the tank (IN the sandbed), so it will affect the water parameters even before you stir it up. It will make a mess of things when you stir it but it can't release anything additional to what is already in there.

I'd bet on one of these possibilities:
-In prepping for the change over, he started to mix new SW but used it before he got it to the correct salinity.
- Tried to correct the salinity after the water was back in the DT (by adding salt to the tank)
-Didn't have enough water on hand for the change over and mixed some way too fast and added to the tank before the salt had all dissolved
-Didn't move quickly enough on the tank swap (to the new stand) and the tank surfaces dried out, possibly the sump as well and all of the plumbing lines and that caused a cycle in the tank.

Hope it all bounces back soon Justin! Please do post your parameters.

 

[cthoughts1]

Kathy, you don't think that an 80% water change would cause the tank to cycle over? If you are replacing 80 percent of the established water and adding freshly made, unestablished water, to the tank I am almost certain that your tank will cycle over again. Not only will it likely cycle, but the difference in water perameters between the new water and old water would be deadly to the fish. It would be like intoducing a fish you just bought from the local store by dumping the bag of water with the fish into your tank (assuming its a small tank). I'm sorry Kathy and Ming, I am going to have to disagree with you guys on thisone... in my opinion the water change that large alone could cause such a catastrophe. Especially given the fact the water temperatures probably were not matched, etc etc.

I am sorry for your loss man.

 

[masterswimmer]

If the new saltwater for his change is matched in temp, salinity and ph to his display water, then he can do 100% water changes every day of the week without any adverse effects (other than great growth, color and happy animals). The denitrifying bacterial colonies in our systems are established on our rock and to a lesser extent on the benthic layer of our sandbeds. The water and glass itself support so little bacteria that it's not worth mentioning those 'surfaces' as live. Hence the reason we refer to certain rock as live rock, or live sand. The huge amounts of surface area on the rock and sand support the bacteria, or life. Glass doesn't support bacterial life and for the most part, neither does water.

Kathy and Ming are correct.

swimmer

 

[cthoughts1]

Hmm... So theoretically speaking I should be able to take live rock, live sand and a cannister filter from an established tank and use 100 percent freshly mixed rodi water and place it all in a new tank and notgo through a water cycle? Also I thought it was the water that cycled, if you change 100% of it, how would the water remain cycled? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to make sense of it for myself because this is news to me, all the books and everything I have read have always cautioned against doing too large of a water change.. Thanks.

 

[marrone]

Large water change, and 100% is the largest you can do, can and will shock a system biology filtration and cause a cycle. LR being exposed to air can cause a die off which can also lead to a small cycle but, like Ming posted, a bigger problem can be exposing sponges to the air. Some will die right away and can also release all kinds of toxins into the tank when they do.

 

[KathyC]

Mike, I continue to disagree (agreeably ) about the water aspect of this. I do completely agree regarding the rock & sponges as that will start to happen as soon as these are exposed to air, even for just a few minutes.
Our OP stated he put his rock into a water bucket with air & a heater, so in this, that may not be the issue.
He did state there was a SG issue, but not why there was.

I really wish he'd come back and give us more info...

Hmm... So theoretically speaking I should be able to take live rock, live sand and a cannister filter from an established tank and use 100 percent freshly mixed rodi water and place it all in a new tank and notgo through a water cycle? Also I thought it was the water that cycled, if you change 100% of it, how would the water remain cycled? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to make sense of it for myself because this is news to me, all the books and everything I have read have always cautioned against doing too large of a water change.. Thanks.

Water doesn't cycle.
If it did, you'd be reading -in a whole lot of places - to use 'cycled' water when starting a new tank or when doing water changes. You don't read this because water alone cannot support bacterial life (feeding wise).

This about this - your LFS, with tank after tank of just fish, with no decor, no rock, no sand..do you think they are going through a cycle every time they change that water?

The cautions you read about doing large water changes are stressed because too many folks wait until their water quality has deterioriated to the point that your new water will be very different, and that IS an issue. PH being the most important aspect. You can kill a fish incredibly fast by a sudden change the pH in a tank..they do a really awful death spiral...and you cannot do anything fast enough to fix it
THAT is why matching parameters is stressed so much.
(not to minimize the importance of matching SG and Temp as well!)


You will also find that most folks doing a large water change (50% or more) are doing so because there already IS a major issue with the tank - or they are changing tanks. You should ALWAYS acclimate your fish over to the new water when doing a change this large (unless you have adjusted the pH before adding it)

Note: IF you need to do this please use Proper PH as it has a buffer in it. If you just use PH Up or PH Down, or baking soda the level will quickly revert back to where it was and your fish will be in major trouble.

Bottom line is you should keep your water in good enough shape to be able to do any percentage of water change at any time, and then you can truely say you are doing water changes to replace the used elements & whatnot that is found in your salt mix

Justin - where are you ???

 

[prattreef]

If the new saltwater for his change is matched in temp, salinity and ph to his display water, then he can do 100% water changes every day of the week without any adverse effects (other than great growth, color and happy animals). The denitrifying bacterial colonies in our systems are established on our rock and to a lesser extent on the benthic layer of our sandbeds. The water and glass itself support so little bacteria that it's not worth mentioning those 'surfaces' as live. Hence the reason we refer to certain rock as live rock, or live sand. The huge amounts of surface area on the rock and sand support the bacteria, or life. Glass doesn't support bacterial life and for the most part, neither does water.

Kathy and Ming are correct.swimmer

I'm in total agreement here, while very large water changes are not necessarily recommended as a regular husbandry practice because doing things gradually is always less stressful, in an emergency situation there is no reason not to do very large WC's provided parameters are matched as closely as possible.

Also regarding stirring of sandbeds, the only concern is disturbing a bed that hasn't been turned over in along time and possibly hitting a pocket of hydrogen-sulfide gas which is quite deadly.

 

[mandarin13]

if your tank is good and healthy and all charges are well taken care of there is no issue in changing the water 100%.like kathy said most people who do that though have let there water quality fall to below satisfactory levels sometimes down right un safe...now i suspect the water parameters were off more then a bit and the water wasnt brought to temp right giving a false reading on the hydrometer (please everyone if you dont already have one get a refractometer) i have dun emergency water changes where the water in no way shape or form was the same as the tank parameters except matching salinity now everything in the tank was not happy but they all survived.coral and fish can and do take a lot of stress have you ever seen how they are collected they dont acclimate them in most cases before they are packed held and shipped even before they get to the trans shipper then to the wholesaler where hopefully they are held over for a bit and given a chance to acclimate then to your lfs or online store then hopefully to your tank where there journey finally ends.the only way they make it through all that is new fresh water at every stop ...hopefully... so these animale spend more time in transit and varying conditions they can take a lot so outside of the water change what else was diffrent he said his rock was in buckets but if it was heavily encrusted with sponges the air might have gotten trapped in its matrix and killed them releasing all sorts of toxins or perhaps the buckets weren't clean and had some kinda chemical or something in it which is more likely did you get the buckets new from home depot or out of your garage?

 

[wonderballz]

how long after a sand bed has been set up should we not disturb? My sandbed has "duned" up and exposed some glass, and I haven't evened it out for fear of a cycle. The tank is about 3-4 months.

PS. Sorry if this is a hijack, but there is some talk of sand bed disruption.

 

[Killarsox]

My Solana has been running for over a year and last weekend I did a complete cleaning. I stirred up the whole sand bed, and shook out all the detritus out of the live rock. The tank looked like a snow globe for a day but nothing died. The live rock was out of water, covered with wet newspaper for over 6 hours and haven't had any problems yet. I think that there was a bigger problem going on in your tank, or the water you were using had either way too high or way too low salinity.

 

[jcolon2]

Thank you everyone. Many great points have been brought up and I have made several mistakes. Anthony, I am going to take you up on your offer. I need help this time. I feel so bad, not about the money lost (although that too) but the fact that so many animals passed away : ( I have 2 clowns, a bicolor blenny, and a mystery wrasse left. I lost so much. I feel as if this entire past year in the hobby was a waste : (

 

[jcolon2]

I'm going to keep re-reading this thread for help.

 

[mandarin13]

its not a waste thats unfortunately one of the ways you learn and progress all be it not the most desirable way to get your stripes but i think its safe to say everyone at some poit has had a melt down of some sorts learn from it if you like i can help you out as well let me know if you need anything what size is the tank

 

[anthony27]

well you have mu number so call me when you need help