alrha

...
Location
Brooklyn
i was planning on actually underdosing my first treatment (to kill many, but not all the FW at once) so that there will be a smaller impact of their toxins.
and upping the doses on subsequent treatments...
 

masterswimmer

Old School Reefer
Vendor
Manhattan Reefs
Location
NY
alrha said:
i was planning on actually underdosing my first treatment (to kill many, but not all the FW at once) so that there will be a smaller impact of their toxins.
and upping the doses on subsequent treatments...


The presiphoning of them while they are alive is the key to removing the toxins. You can do it whichever way you feel comfortable. I posted a proven method for me. I'm sure there's other ways to do it also. I had great success with this method.

Russ
 

alrha

...
Location
Brooklyn
masterswimmer said:
The presiphoning of them while they are alive is the key to removing the toxins. You can do it whichever way you feel comfortable. I posted a proven method for me. I'm sure there's other ways to do it also. I had great success with this method.
Russ
i have a 200 gal system (30" deep + 8" canopy = 38"). siphoning really is not possible without ripping my tank apart.
 

masterswimmer

Old School Reefer
Vendor
Manhattan Reefs
Location
NY
Like I said, to each his own. My sequence of attack worked perfectly for me. I haven't seen even one FW or had to siphon even once since I treated with my prescribed method. Do as you wish. I wanted to offer assistance to rid your tank of them once and for all. I said there are probably other ways to do it. The other ways appear to have supplemental treatments (continued weekly siphoning), mine hasn't required ANYTHING else.

Good luck..........
master
 

nanoreefer22

Live Sale Pioneer
Staff member
Manhattan Reefs
Real Reefer
Supporter
Location
11756
Thanks for the game plan Russ. Really appreciate it. Just have to go pick up the flatworm exit. I keep getting caught up :irked: whenever I want to go :(.
-Kris
 

alrha

...
Location
Brooklyn
masterswimmer said:
Like I said, to each his own. My sequence of attack worked perfectly for me. I haven't seen even one FW or had to siphon even once since I treated with my prescribed method. Do as you wish. I wanted to offer assistance to rid your tank of them once and for all. I said there are probably other ways to do it. The other ways appear to have supplemental treatments (continued weekly siphoning), mine hasn't required ANYTHING else.

Good luck..........
master
Thanks master, we appreciate your help and insights...
 

alrha

...
Location
Brooklyn
Update

ok, i did it last night.
I dosed 200 drops in my 200 gallons.
I noticed the flatworms start to die-off right away.
After 30 min, i ran my carbon (full phosban reactor).
I performed a 5 gallon water change every 20 min for 2 hours.
I would say that 70% of the FWs died.

Other than my closed clams and zoos, i did not notice any ill effects to my livestock.

I will now be comfortable dosing a full bottle (300 drops) at my next dose (saturday night?) and leave it in for an hour to kill off the remaining flatworms. As there is only the remaining 30% left, it should be about half as much flatworm die-off as my first dose.
 

alrha

...
Location
Brooklyn
masterswimmer said:
The Flat Worm Exit is not toxic to your tanks inhabitants. However, like alrha mentioned above, the toxins released from the dead/dying FW's are toxic. With this in mind, it is better to add an overdose of FWE to your tank than to add too little.

- I have a 75 gallon tank, 15 fuge and about 10 gallons in my sump, for a total of ~ 100 gallons. I used five full bottles of FWE during the treatment on my system. I didn't use them all at once, but I did use them all during the one week of treatment.

note this thread:
Habib (on Reef Central) said:
The safe dosage is a mix of many factors.

FWE itself is save for other stuff besides FW but not if allowed to remain for a very long time.

Very high dosages in combination with time will affect bristleworms and small brittlestars but not limited to them.

It is tricky to do a treatment at very high dosages and/or in combination with long treatment times. It will be unpredictable simply because a system consists of many different organisms.

If you can easily locate the large FW's and there not to many a local application would be possible. calculate the amount for a single dosage for that tank and dissolve it in some tankwater and mix and use that as a concentrate to apply in their neighborhood. This will fail if the uptake rate is low. Don't mistake treatment time with the time needed to see the effect.

I'm afraid that this might not be of much help but I can't recommend procedures that could kill a tank.

Perhaps we all together (we hobbyists and/or manufctr) will come up with something.
 

masterswimmer

Old School Reefer
Vendor
Manhattan Reefs
Location
NY
Albert, if I were Habib, I'd respond similarly. He's protecting his product and company from someone experiencing ill effects on their system. Or worse, a total catastrophe and wiping it out. His answer is totally non-committal.

I just finished reading my log notes about my treatment. I did have one casualty that I neglected to mention, I lost my featherduster in the treatment.

If you notice, I also don't mention leaving the very high dosage in for a long treatment time. I mention after one half hour to second dose the tank and then after approx. one total hour to start your water changes and carbon.

I'm glad to hear your treatment worked. That is a great start. I hope you used a powerhead to direct flow to your low flow areas. If not, then try to incorporate this procedure into your treatment on Saturday. Believe me, you've got more FW's in there than you're aware of, but I'm also sure you eradicated a huge amount. I know you've got to feel good about that.

If you have any other Q's about treatment or would like to discuss this more, just LMK. We can always do this on the phone as well.

Russ
 

alrha

...
Location
Brooklyn
Thanks Russ.
I did blow around with the powerhead.
On Saturday i'll dose the 300 drops and leave it for an hour before running carbon or water changes.
After that, i'll take it from there and see what's left (if any).
I just wanted to avoid an immediate mass die-off in one shot, i somehow feel more comfortable breaking it into two (or more).
Thanks again as always.

p.s. i agree that habib is forced to respond conservatively. better to have someone complain that a flatworm survived, than to complain that nothing survived.
 

masterswimmer

Old School Reefer
Vendor
Manhattan Reefs
Location
NY
Hey man, sounds like you've got a good plan in place. Maybe consider splitting the 300 drops into two doses. Like 200 drops on the hour then use your powerhead like last time. Then on the half hour the other 100 drops. Use the powerhead again. Start siphoning dead FW's immediately. Then on the hour start the WC's and carbon. Just another way to dose it. I like doing the multiple doses to make sure the treatment gets to all parts of the tank while the FW's start coming out of their lairs! :sgrin:

If you want my phone #, just pm me. My voice isn't up to par right now because of the surgery, but I'll muster up some grunts for you :lol:

Russ
 

alrha

...
Location
Brooklyn
Feel better Russ - what did you do? drink a bottle of FWE to prove your point? :joke:

what is the advantage of breaking it into two doses? i feel like 300 drops for an hour would have more of an effect than 200 drops for 30 min and 300 for the next 30 min.

p.s. i plan to save the remaining 100 drops in my current bottle to use on all trades going in and out of my tank.
 

masterswimmer

Old School Reefer
Vendor
Manhattan Reefs
Location
NY
alrha said:
Feel better Russ - what did you do? drink a bottle of FWE to prove your point? :joke:

Don't be ridiculous, I broke it up into two doses!! lmao

Remember habib's note on overdosing and longevity of treatment. I split my doses to avoid that combination.

master
 

alrha

...
Location
Brooklyn
masterswimmer said:
Don't be ridiculous, I broke it up into two doses!! lmao

Remember habib's note on overdosing and longevity of treatment. I split my doses to avoid that combination.

master
:lol: :lol: :lol:

i see. but at 300 drops in 200 gals, i wouldnt think that is much of an overdose, you dosed that much into your 100 gal system!!!
 

masterswimmer

Old School Reefer
Vendor
Manhattan Reefs
Location
NY
alrha said:
:lol: :lol:

i see. but at 300 drops in 200 gals, i wouldnt think that is much of an overdose, you dosed that much into your 100 gal system!!!

Very twue my fwiend :lol: :lol:

More meds, please,
Russ
 

alrha

...
Location
Brooklyn
:mad: :grumpy: :irked: :banghead:
came home today to first of all find my skimmate to be almost as red as blood (i am guessing this is the toxins from the flatworms).
i also noticed all my corals are all bleached!!!
at first i figured it may be due to the light (now that i am running a full phosban reactor with carbon) so i shut the MH and left only the VHO on.
then i noticed that my fish are not even out swimming, i fed them to see if they would come out, two still did not even bother showing up for dinner (i am hoping they are still alive). i noticed my sailfin tang has a foggy eye as well.
i changed another 5 gallons of water and am making more to change in the morning.
i do not know if it is the flatworm toxins, or leftover FWE that did not get removed by the carbon that may be causing all this.
either way i hope it is possible for everything to recover (is it?) and that they only improve with time (as the toxins get removed) and do not get worse (as time drags on).
oh gosh, this is what i was afraid of and why i was dreading this treatment.
on another note, it seems that i got at least 90% if not 100% of them. i could not find a live FW in the tank (i guess all the ones i thought survived last night's treatment did not make it after all)
 

nanoreefer22

Live Sale Pioneer
Staff member
Manhattan Reefs
Real Reefer
Supporter
Location
11756
Albert,
Did you siphon as many as you can? Too many mighta died and released into the tank, leaving the carbon playing a catch up game.

Did you do a water change, to siphon out the dead ones?
-Kris
 

alrha

...
Location
Brooklyn
my tank it too big to be able to siphon. what i did was put a net over my return to catch the ones floating around.
i was hoping the carbon would be able to handle it.
i just pray that it will catch up and that everything will recover once it does and that there is no permanent damage
 

nanoreefer22

Live Sale Pioneer
Staff member
Manhattan Reefs
Real Reefer
Supporter
Location
11756
alrha said:
my tank it too big to be able to siphon. what i did was put a net over my return to catch the ones floating around.
i was hoping the carbon would be able to handle it.
i just pray that it will catch up and that everything will recover once it does and that there is no permanent damage

You're supposed to siphon as many as you can. Hence the water change, by the time you siphon out as many as you can you'd have taken out a lot of water. If they stayed in the tank they had more than enough time to release their "juices". You've got a pretty big system, how much carbon are you running on it? Are you running it passively or aggresively?
 

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