kinda need advice: tank overheating maybe: I'm new to saltwater

[ejsaints]

I have a 92G corner reef.

Equipped with:
CPR overflow box with aqualift pump and filter for aqualift pump (LOUD AS ALL HELL)

Glass tops (small black plastic triangle is off)

Current nova extreme 4 bulb t5 156w with 2 daylights, 1 actinic and 1 purple + integrated fan (sits 1/2" off of glass)

Oddysea 18" metal halide 150w 10k with remote ballast (ballast is about 3 feet away from setup) with (2) 18w t5 actinics and integrated fan 186W TOTAL (raised on 3-4" legs)

Natural Wave wavemaker (3 outlets for powerheads) strapped to back of stand

(3) hydor koralia power heads 3,4 and 5 i think

Ecosystems refugium with 18w pc light (in stand)

CPR in-sump protein skimmer (rio 600)

Current Gamma 25w UV sterilizer (in stand)

Blueline 55 (90 watts) external pump (in stand) that goes to a 2 valve manifold
First valve goes to the main return which is full open to an Eheim spraybar about 24-30" long
Second valve is throttled down slightly as water passes thru the uv and chiller and then returns into a smaller Eheim spraybar with an elbow on the end without a cap as not to restrict flow I guess because it is too short maybe 8" in total

Current Prime 1/4 hp chiller which is next to the tank with control panel and display facing wall so condenser side blows into my living room without any restriction

4" RadioShack Server fan (I think) that blows a pretty serious amount of air. Enough that in the colder months I have to turn it off when I work under my tank 'cause it is too cool of a breeze. This fan is cut and mounted into the stand blowing into the stand.

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My house is naturally warmer than most. I'm in a single family raised ranch with an attic above so it is more like I live on the second floor. My chiller was turning on 6-8 weeks ago and has gotten progressively worse as far as how often it runs. Back when we had 70 degree days or less it would turn on for 1-2 minutes and off for 10 minutes. Now with the warmer weather we were having last week it would be on for 1-2 minutes and off for 5 and back on again all day long. A few weeks ago the ambient temp in my house was 74-76 degrees. Now it is more like 80-84.

I started running my actinics at 6pm to 11 pm (so I can enjoy my tank after work) and my daylights run from 11PM all night until 7am where the actinics stay on for another hour. I started doing this to cut down on overheating the tank and to stop from draining my wallet over an electric bill with my chiller. NOTE: I have 3 setups so 3 chillers can be crazy to pay for. We really don't use ac unless we cant take it because we have lots of live plants in the house. Electric is cheaper in the off-peak hours.

36" Current light cooling fan exhausts thru the back ( I guess for closed canopy applications) and the MH is behind it as my tank gets narrower towards the back because it is a corner tank. Point being that the cooling fan from the 36" light blows through the beam of light from the 150w MH so you can hold your hand under the MH and it only feels slightly warmer but not hot.

When my hand is in the tank and I raise it to just below the surface i can feel a pretty dramatic temperature difference from the rest of the tank to water surface. This is why I removed the black triangle so heat can escape but I don't think it helped much.

I bought this setup second hand.

The only problems that I noticed which I will/have correct/corrected are:
1) the chiller was in the stand and eventho the fan was added it is still a heat source. Now it is on the side of the tank. Putting it in the basement isn't really an option because that is my Landlord's storage space.
2) The blueline 55 has a 1" outlet that goes into a check valve and before it goes into the 2 valve manifold it is already reduced to 1/2" and both outlets off of the manifold are 5/8 tubing. I have to upsize the 1/2 into the manifold I think because it is a big restriction to go from 1" down to 1/2" without the pressure having a place to go. My thinking is that the water may be slowed down a bit too much and is absorbing heat from my blueline pump. I hear that they are heat machines but if the water is slowed down too much then I imaging that it would just amplify the issue.

My tank gets minimal sunlight which is mostly indirect. When it really starts to get hot I will pull down the shades.

The small black triangle on the back of the glass canopy is off to help heat escape and so that my MH can brighten up the dark spot of my tank.

Tank has about 150#'s of live rock and about 50#'s of dead skeletal corals that I've cured to use as live rock and a ph buffer

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Simple math got me thinking:

blueline 55 is rated for upto 1100gph and upto 28 ft of head. If I was getting 1100 (which I know I'm not) and If i had 100 gallons between refugium and DT. It would take 6 minutes for the tank to go thru my Chiller but my chiller runs for less than 2 minutes and turns back on in 5 minutes. These past 2 rainy days it hasn't come on much at all so I know it isn't just stuck in some kinda crazy cycle. But I changed it's program. Before when it was turning on and off all day long it had a 2 degree differential. 2 days ago I changed it to 3 and now it isn't turning on as much. It didn't make a difference if I ran 500gph thru my chiller or 1000 gph thru it. it still ran for 2minutes or less and back on in 4-5 minutes which doesn't make sense to me. Rate of flow should play a part on how long it stays on.

ALL of my chillers are doing the same thing. All of them have controls facing the wall so the condensers flow straight out into the room without restriction. I have windows open usually and ceiling fans on, Cabinet fan on my 92 is on 24/7. This is lengthy enough and I didn't want to list the parameters of the other 2 as well and I'm sure none of you want to read more as this I know is beyond pushing it. I jsut wanted to paint a full picture for anyone experienced enough to tell me if there is something else I should be doing. I'm getting fans to blow across the top of the tanks. I only have a 54 corner that has an open top and that's only because it broke.

My 92 has the most heat generated from equipment. My other 2 tanks only have t5's. I know this is high but it is what it is. I know in the high temp days that my chillers will need to do 30 degree drops from 95+ degree days so I just have everything in my tank acclimated to higher temps and everything looks happy and is thriving. Setpoint is set for 79 degrees with a 3 degree differential. When I had it set for 2 degrees it just turned on and off about 15-20 times in an hour. That's 6-8 hours in a 24 hour period TIMES 3 chillers. So she is gonna kill me when the bill comes in.

My thought is that (3) 1/4 hp chillers = 9000 btu's. If I run my A/c I'll be running 36-42,000btu's. So eventhough it isn't cheap it should be much cheaper but I know that my window a/c's don't run for 2 minutes and off for 5. They usually run for 5-10 and are off for 30 minutes or more. on/off, on/off is no good for any compressor in any refrigeration equipment. the 3 degree differential (although way wrong) is kinda more acceptable as far as time on verses time off ratio that I'm seeing now.

You all deserve a bottle of the finest top shelf liquor of choice for reading all of this. I promise to give you all a lap dance personally. j/k

Thanks for your time and any help will be appreciated.

 

[mbg75]

Easiest would be to remove the glass top, and raise the lights a few inches above the water. See how that does.

Also, try setting your lighting for about 8-10 hrs total.
Maybe acetnics 5pm to 12am
Halide 6pm to 11pm

 

[ejsaints]

I will order the mountimg lets for my current lightstrip and then I can remove the glass. I also have to rig a support of some sort so the front legs for the MH have a place to rest unless I hang everything. Im kinda lazy but if it helps I will do it. My bedroom setup is a 54 corner with only a 2 bulb 36" t5 Corner braces are drilled and light passes thru to illuminate dark spots. Plus it has an 18" 32w x2 pc to illuminate rear corner and has an integrated cooling fan. So only 142 watts. 4 maxijet 1000 powerheads hooked up to a redsea pro wavemaker. Some cheap return pump that is rated for 800 gph@ 8' of head it goes thru my 18w uv and then thru a 1/10 chiller and 3' higher into my DT. Eventually I will pit in a bigger pump for more turmovers per hour but for now I only have leathers, 20 mixed cleaners and 2 fish and 120#'s of live rock/dead skeletal coral. Even if I am getting 500gph I am meeting my minimum required gph for the chiller. Still with lights off and shades down and windows open and ceiling fan on (fuge light and uv on) this chiller does same thing. And this tank has no top.

 

[ejsaints]

OH I almost forgot.... Thanks for your advice mbg75

 

[MatthewScars]

ill admit I skimmed this thread.

You need to ditch the glass top. Thats probably where most of the heat is coming from. It cant escape. Just get like a mesh cover or something.

I wouldn't worry too much about the pumps. Unless you are running a pump meant for a 400g tank on a 90g, its not a big deal.

Is the chiller new? Maybe you need a higher HP or refresh the compressor.

I mean, you have a 150w MH. That's a ton of heat right there. Id get a nice 6/8 bulbs t5 fixture and ditch the MH. But I personally dont like MH, so take that for what its worth.

 

[ejsaints]

I don't like halides either. I needed a light for the back of my tank. I got it on trade for 14 green button polyps that were growing like mad and I have a lot more, 2 green mushrooms, a kenya tree that I was glad to be rid of as I still have enough to fill another tank and a nice piece of Devil's hand that I had from a huge 24" mother of a leather that was too big for any of my tanks.

Believe it or not tho... the heat is coming more from my t5's. My t5's cooling fan blows right under the MH that is only 150w. You can hold your hand right under it and it isn't that warm at all. Feels more like the heat that is put off from a stand freshwater aquarium single bulb strip. My t5's are sitting closest to the glass.

The only thing I like about halides are the shimmer but I love the way colors pop from t5's and the atmosphere that they create.

I like the idea of using mesh. That way I don't have to hang my lights and I don't have to have to create a support for my MH's front legs to stand on and I don't have to order the legs for my t5 strip.

Thanks for the advice Matt.

 

[Dre]

Do you have pics? Hope this helps .Use mesh over your tank.Do you really need the UV? Lighting:-Use timers,Actinics on at 4pm, MH1 on at 5pm, the other on at 5:30pm
MH1 off at 12:00am, the other off at 12:30am, actinics off at 1:00 am. Use a 9.5mag drive sub pump they run cooler and quiet. Circulation is more important inside the DPT tank.

Here is a discription of my tank:-90Gal mixed reef, 20Gal sump ,1/3hp inline chiller, 9.5mag drive circulation pump,three inside circulation power heads two go off at night,two 250 watt MH four t5's.T5's run for 8 hours MH run for 5-6 hours, Chiller set at 77 degrees, set at 2 degree difference that mean it come on at 79 and it stays at 78.On very hot days chiller runs every 35 mins or so when lights are on. Since the beginning off spring chiller run a total of 2 hours a day max.

 

[mbg75]

I have a 250mh on my 54 corner 6" over tank. Tank holds 77-78 without a chiller. Heater even goes on at night.
Read ur post again, room temp might be ur problem also.

 

[ejsaints]

Thanks Dre and MBG,

ambient temp is absolutely a factor without question. I guess I'm not sure if my blueline is adding too much heat and turning on my chiller or if room temp is actually raising my tank temp 2-3 degrees in a 4 minute period. Most pieces of refrigeration equipment have a 3-5 minute time delay to protect a compressor from short cycling (short cycling is bad for a compressor)... so it seems that once the time delay has reached it's end.... the chiller is back on the second the time delay is over. I've timed it with a stopwatch.

I would follow the schedule that Dre is suggesting but.... I know my bill will be insane with 3 chillers running all willy-nilly. She already mentioned somethin about the bill doubling . I don't really like daylights anyway so I figured I can enjoy my actinics when I'm home and run my daylights at night when electric is cheaper. The sun is also a factor so by not having my lights on during the day it won't be amplified by the heat of the sun. I'm usually up until 1am anyway so I get to see the tanks with daylights on and i and my kid fall asleep to each of the 2 bedroom 54's.

I will get the mesh. i have a mag18 I'd like to put to a test . I'll just add 10 more feet of spraybars and epoxy everything in. I don't haven't figured out how to post pics yet. If you send me an email to [email protected] i will forward pics.

I guess I just answered my own question in posting this. Today is about 77 degrees in my house and all lights are off and my chiller isn't coming on nearly as much. I can't believe that room temp would trigger my tank to rise 2-3 degrees in the time the compressor turns off and the time delay permits the compressor to turn back on.

I have to come up with a way to cool my tanks down aside from turning the lights off during the day.

Maybe I can put some sort of heat sinks on the bottom and backs of my tanks aside from adding mesh tops and removing the glass tops.

I will add fans too to blow across the water's surface.

I've always had freshwater and the need for a chiller for one reason or another was never an issue it seemed. Then gain I've never had a fishtank on a second floor with exception of being a kid and back then I never thought about an electric bill.

The chillers are new and if they needed a recharge it's non issue. I'm a refrigeration tech.

 

[mbg75]

Room temp needs to be below desired tank temp.

 

[ejsaints]

I dont know if I need a uv sterilizer. Everypne says u should jane one. In fairness all tanks are fairly new setups so to keep down on algal blooms and poaaibly parasites for new fish, corals and inverts I guess I should have one. What do u feel is the right answer, ive never had ich or any illnesses in my tanks. (((knocking on wood))).

 

[kalapnath]

i think there's a recommended height for the metal halides it's definitely more than 3 to 4 inches i have the same blue line and no problems......................

 

[Dre]

You have alot going on, the Mag 18 is too big. As stated earlier circulation inside the tank is more important there are countless successfull tanks without a big main circulation pump. Unplug the blue line and see where the temp goes.

 

[ejsaints]

I was only kidding about the mag 18 but it would be fun to try.

I appreciate everyone's advice. I'm home today and my chillers aren't turning as much. I can't believe that room temp would cause that much of a rise in a short period. It could also be that these plastic temp probes that are in the chillers are garbage, not accurately sensing the water temp and I will need to add controllers. I'm setting everything on a 3 degree differential which I know is wrong but I will monitor my tanks and their inhabitants. Plus the 3 degree differential is only wrong if the probes are accurate and plastic probes don't conduct temperature accurately (USUALLY). I've tried keeping a closer spread on temp but my chillers are on non stop or so it seems.

Dre and Kal, you are both right, it isn't my blueline. It's my ambient temp.

I will do the mesh thing. I will add fans to blow across the surface of the water. I will lose the glass tops. I will run 3 degree temp differentials and eventually get 3 controllers to more accurately control tank temps. I will run my daylights at night to conserve energy, lower my bill, not add more heat gain to my tanks driving my chillers to turn on more. I like the actinic look anyway. I will also add small fans to both 54 cabinets so there is no radiant heat rising from pumps and fuge lights.

if my house is 77degrees on a day like today with the heat off then imagine what is going to be like on a 90 degree day. Actually it isn't that bad with all of the window fans that I have on but it will be bad enough. I'm going to have to come up with more creative ways of dropping temps. kinda like those ice probe chillers but custom. My lights are off and chillers have been turning on about 2-4 times an hour for 2 minutes a pop.

 

[Deep Dive Coral]

it is recommended that the ambient air be 5-10 degrees less then what you want to keep your tank at. fwiw

 

[ejsaints]

I'm learning exactly why it should be that much lower than the tank. i never would have thought that there would be that much of a temperature rise in just 2-3 minutes due to ambient temps. I guess it makes sense. We've all had to drink beer faster on hot summer days 'cause it would get warm quick.

I just figured with a decent mass of water that it would take longer and that my chillers wouldn't be running as much. I got them for that exact reason thinking it would be cheaper to run chillers than it would be to run a/c's. And maybe it still will be but I'm just surprised in these mild days how often my chillers are turning on and off.

On my kid's setup I didn't have room in the fuge for another pump so I used a spare eheim I have to serve as the pump for that chiller. It's full of filter bag material that I cut up to keep the chiller as clean as possible. It works.

At the very least it is more efficient to run chillers on days that don't require your entire house to be cooled. If I have to run a/c's on hot 85 and up days then apparently that is what I will have to do. Either way adding chillers to my systems was the right thing to do. I just thought I could have let it get into the mid 90's before I had to turn on the a/c's.

 

[ejsaints]

Our hobbies can be enough to drive women crazy but they usually don't know how much we spend on them or at least they choose not to think about it. There is no hiding the electric bill. So I need to get creative in keeping temps lower.

I will figure out something outside of the box and I will let you all know how well it worked. I already have a few ideas brewing and improv usually works out pretty well for me.

 

[LatinP]

I have my halides about 8-9" off the water and use a 6" clip on fan mounted on the wall behind the tank in addition to the built in fans on the fixture to cool the heat, so far I've had no problems. Ambient temp is about 78-80 in the room all year round, it's nice because I never need a heater but the fans do well keeping the tank spot on at 78-81 at any point in time during the day, controller will also kill the lights if it reaches past 81.

 

[ejsaints]

Thanks latinp,

I really like the idea of the controller killing the lights if it is over heating

 

[Silverni2]

I agree with most of the advice above but if you purchase led fixtures IMO your problem would be solved. The initial up front cash might hurt but you would make back your money quickly. If you could sell your existing fixtures you could offset some of the cost. As stated above running the chiller is rough on the electric bill which seems to be killing you. In addition running fans and adding LEDs and removing glass tops would solve your problem! Maybe even sell those chillers!