Undergravel Filter...

[Psycho graphic]

Keep the questions coming and dont mind the stupid smart arsed answers posted by some people

Lighten up bro, nobody was bashing this person, you yourself say they they are not a good choice. If my answer was not "Polically Correct" for you, I aplogize.

 

[Aqua Pro Builder]

The problem with under gravel filters is that they draw the water down and trap detris in the sand bed, Once in the sand bed it will break down and release nitrates. So its realy a bit of a time bomb, you can keep re setting the detonation time by cleaning out the gravel but eventually you will miss a cleaning and it will go off.
In my opinion, you would be better removing the under gravel filter and letting the live rock in the system take care of your filtering along with a skimmer (berlin method).
Having said that, I ran an under gravel system for years that was quite successful, but it is definitely a lot more work than a berlin system.

Keep the questions coming and dont mind the stupid smart arsed answers posted by some people

Partially agreed.

Just as a reminder most reefers keep a whole bunch of sand sifting inverts to clean the sand and use manual turkey buster to clean the rock.- Well, still have to work and carefully monitor the health of the system whichever system you choose.

Having nitrate is better than having ammonia therefore, the bigger the ammonia convertor the better-be it rock, bio balls, UG under sand bed, SSB, DSB.... Depends on how deep is your sand bed and with or without UG(provided that you do not apply too much flow), a lot of the nitrate could be turned into N2 and released through the system. If anyone decided to use an UG, you must also remember to eliminate the nitrate by other means such as macro algae, DSB .... Therefore, this basically tells you that UG is for mostly advanced users while skimmer is great for beginners and advanced users. For the purpose of preventing ammonia, you cannot successfully maintain a system with UG nor skimmer alone. Either one, when not set properly will not work and has to rely on other components in the system. As long as you know what to do with them, they are all good.

 

[aaron]

Its not a matter of being "politically correct", I am just getting sick of reading posts in this forum that contain blanket statements that infer that you know everything there is to know about reefing (and i am not singling you out there are a large number of people on this boad who are guilty of this). The guy asked a legitimate question in the beginner forum and insted of getting the advice he is looking for, he gets a whole lot of stupid know-it-all responses. Its not if the advise is correct or not, its the way it is given.
I am thankful to the people on this website for all the advice i have been given over the years. It has allowed me to create a good looking and mostly trouble free reef tank.

Wingo, thanks for giving a more in depth analysis of the UG filter and the bio process involved.

 

[Psycho graphic]

Its not a matter of being "politically correct", I am just getting sick of reading posts in this forum that contain blanket statements that infer that you know everything there is to know about reefing (and i am not singling you out there are a large number of people on this boad who are guilty of this). The guy asked a legitimate question in the beginner forum and insted of getting the advice he is looking for, he gets a whole lot of stupid know-it-all responses. Its not if the advise is correct or not, its the way it is given.
I am thankful to the people on this website for all the advice i have been given over the years. It has allowed me to create a good looking and mostly trouble free reef tank.

Wingo, thanks for giving a more in depth analysis of the UG filter and the bio process involved.

You may not have singled me out but you grouped me into it. I along with others were IMO being a little lighthearted about the subject, I'm sorry if you did'nt see this. If this is the case of us pretending to be "Know-it-alls" why is there no complaining about Sea-clone skimmers being called SeaClowns, it's the same thing? Like I said before, Lighten up. I and I'm sure others meant no harm. Did you read Scarf's first reply, it had the answer to this persons question.
I also challenge you to tell me one post I've made where I come even close to considering myself an expert.

 

[daisy]

I see that this thread is devolving, so I'll shift back to the topic!

I had a UG for years on a freshwater before I knew what could happen - had a breeding tank for Angels. I used to siphon the gravel every other week. I went away for three weeks, and while I was gone, everything died. I had my friend take care of the tank - the only think I didn't have him do was siphon the gravel... then I did a bunch of research, and learned that regular UG systems are prone to crashes like the one I experienced. I learned that the reverse-flow UG system can be great, but I learned that there were better systems out there.

It seems to me that if one is just starting up, there are better options out there - ones that require less maintainence and ones that are less prone to crashing. My advice would be to opt for the system that most closely resembles the natural environs of the reefs we are trying to emulate -- lots of sand-sifting inverts, lots of rocks, deep sand bed (I know this is controversial...) or no sand bed (losing a great source of bacteria...) protein skimming (like the action of the waves) and fantastic water movement to avoid dead spots, not to mention as much water in the system as possible to absorb changes and slow them down so we have a chance to stop a crash before it begins.

Good luck, whatever you choose!!!

 

[Aqua Pro Builder]

I went away for three weeks, and while I was gone, everything died.

I would suspect something else must have been VERY WRONG if everthing die in a tank due to not siphoning the gravel within 3 weeks time. Looks more like your system does not have enough bacteria to begin with. Of course, there are many other possible causes when you are away.

 

[daisy]

True - there were probably other problems, but my only point was that the system had been stable for three years, and in my absence, the only change was that the gravel was not cleaned... so I'm thinking (and I'm happy to be corrected) that the problem was actually that the UG was so polluted that my bi-weekly cleanings were just keeping up with the problem, and that the system was so on-the-edge that it took one missed cleaning to kill the fish.

oh- the only thing in the tank was water, gravel, these two HUGE angels (in a 40-gal tank) and plants... So over-population was not the problem.

also, this was about 10 years ago, so it's not a current tank of mine - I'm out of the FW business - SW is so much less complicated!

HAhaha

 

[gc9n]

I took the undergravel filter OFF

 

[Psycho graphic]

I think it was a smart move on your part, they are just too much maintenance without enough benefits. (again, my opinion)

 

[reefs4life]

Yea good move at taking it out. The debris they suck up creates nitrates over time and may cause unwanted algae growth and you wouldn't want to deal with that. A natural choice like sand sifting stars, certain gobies, and sea cucumber are much better idea.

 

[scarf_ace1981]

:scratchch

I wonder why you say so even after you have seen the FW 20G tall that has an undergravel system in it in club7. I have not changed water for one year and only clean the tank's glass five six times. The only time, that there was a major water change is about 2 months ago when I move it to the cafe due to weight issue. The eco environemnt is almost perfect for a year without any problem-the water is still crystal clear. In one whole year, only 5 clams die due to insufficient feeding(this is an uncontrolled observation though). I added some new stuff to the tank at the beginning of 2007 and hopefully I have the time to document the whole thing for everyone to share.

The other tank, that I have an UG, has already been given to Waterplant, so you would not have seen it.

If you were thinking of the tank where your Africians are in, that tank does not even have a filter-only crush corals as substrates and an air stone in the middle of the water. That means not an UG either. That tank was just a holding tank for the big fish to be relocated into my pond during spring or if Idecide to build a big FW tank in the cafe in PA.

The key to has a successful UG system is the balance of materials and inhabitants. You need a lot of substrate and limit the choice of your live stock. If you set it up properly it actually require less maintenance than canister filter. However, you must DIY your own system because most commercial UG are incomplete.

No comments on UG in reef environment because the ones I have in SW are not even one year yet.

yes wing. the UG has worked well in the freshwater system for you but just because it's worked well for freshwater doesn't mean it will work for reef enviorment.

IMO a UG system should not be tried by a novice reefer. if they want to research it and try it out fine.

aaron i apologize if you were referring to me as the "know it all" i should have answered the question as i always do, saying "IMO", so that they don't take every word seriously.

gc9n- sorry if i wasn't of any help. there are others on this board w/ tons more knowledge than i. i just didn't want to see your new tank crash because of something that you hadn't researched.

 

[Aqua Pro Builder]

yes wing. the UG has worked well in the freshwater system for you but just because it's worked well for freshwater doesn't mean it will work for reef enviorment.

:thrash: Agreed.
That's why I said "no comments" on UG for the saltwater since mine are not even one year so far. Not enough data to tell how to use them or if they are even any good in SW.
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Off topic
BTW, what system you have in your new African tank? Send me some pics bro. Oh when you are tired of the fish again, send them over too. HAHAHA:fish:

 

[scarf_ace1981]

:thrash: Agreed.
That's why I said "no comments" on UG for the saltwater since mine are not even one year so far. Not enough data to tell how to use them or if they are even any good in SW.
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Off topic
BTW, what system you have in your new African tank? Send me some pics bro. Oh when you are tired of the fish again, send them over too. HAHAHA:fish:

i want my red empress' back!:letitallo :tongue1: i may have some more africans later on. there are about 40 in the new 135g. some of the males are getting very territorial.

 

[Aqua Pro Builder]

i want my red empress' back!:letitallo :tongue1: i may have some more africans later on. there are about 40 in the new 135g. some of the males are getting very territorial.

WOW! 40 good looking fish !!!

YOU DON'T WANT YOUR RED EMPRESS BACK it will kill all your other fish. He is biting my 12" Oscar!

Oh readers, after reading this far I think you should feel UG is a thing for the FW guys. We got so carried away and forgot this is a thread about UG not FW fish.:tongue1:

Scarf, back to topic please.:duh:

 

[Paul B]

A member here, CB747,informed me that my name was mentioned here so I decided to visit. The information here about an UG filter is correct because they are always used incorrectly in salt water. My RUGF has been running in my reef since 1972. There were no salt water tanks before that because thats when they started importing salt water fish to the states. I was a newbee then as everyone was. UG filters was the only way to go. There was a lot of problems with them as there are now.
You can't use them the way we did in FW.
I discovered that they must be run in reverse with a screen or sponge on the inlet and they also should be run very slow. In my 6' 100 gallon reef with three down tubes I run 50 GPH in each tube.
As I said this still running reef is 36 years old. I have bred and raised many fish, written quite a few articles, have been a diver for 40 years and I have a reef related patent. I have also been at this for more than fifty years.
It is possable to run a UG filter if you know what you are doing and it is easier than many systems. I cleaned the gravel about two years ago, the time before that was 27 years ago. I also have a moorish Idol for four years and I constantly breed pipefish (actually they do it by themself).
As I said, an UG filter run incorrectly is worse than useless.
Have a great day.
Paul

 

[Deanos]

Paul, thanks for the information! And welcome to Manhattan Reefs! :grouphug:

 

[Psycho graphic]

Welcome Paul, I must say that is a very impressive tank you have.

I have a few questions for you,

Is the bottom of your tank visible from underneath and is there no detritus under the plates?

Have you ever replced your substrate? If not am I right in assuming it is Dolamite?

How long have you had your Moorish Idol and can you give some tips on it's care if you've had it more than a year?

Thanks

 

[cb747]

I know Paul personally and wanted you guys to hear it from him on his success with his RUGF. After seeing his tank it forced me to reconsider my opinion on them. Being run in reverse keeps detrius suspended and it doesnt become a nutrient trap.

 

[Paul B]

Psycho. Thank you. I have never replaced the dolomite gravel. It actually has been in there for about 40 years. The tank was a brackish tank in the late sixtees because there was no salt then. In late 1971 I added more salt making it a full salt tank. If I look under the tank I can see a very little detritus, I can still see through it to the UG filter plates. When I cleaned it for the first time in 27 years I lifted the plates because I was curious as to what was under it. It wasen't too bad. Don't get me wrong, it was dirty but a lot of the "stuff" under there was small sand particles that migrated down and I also added mud from the Long Island Sound as an experiment a few times. I use a lot of Sound water too)
As to the moorish Idol I have had him about 4 years. I have had quite a few of them over the years and I think I finally have it almost down to a science. I even went to Bora Bora to dive with them and try to learn their secret. It seems that they always live in mated pairs and the male leads the female to food which is almost always this sticky lime green sponge that I could not identify. I myself collect encrusting sponge on floating docks in the Sound to feed him. (my boat is on the Sound)
The other secret is that you need to feed them at least three times a day, four is better and five is best. I do this by feeding him in a dish.
I have a small dish in there with a tube running to the surface. At the top is a funnel and above that is an automatic feeder. The feeder puts pellest in the funnel twice a day. The Idol checks out the dish on every loop around the tank. For the third and sometimes fourth feeding I give either sponge (which I have frozen) clam, mussel, oyster, bananas, avacado, small fish, plankton or one of the commercially prepared frozen reef fish foods like Angel something or other. He also gets live black worms daily.
So far he has lived through two eye operations and two weeks ago when it was 7 degrees my power and heat went off for a day and a half when no one was home. My fish did not look good and three of them came down with a severe case of ich. They look fine now after no treatment.
That was the first ich I have seen in about 25 years even though I don't quarantine (but you should).
I don't want anyone to think my Moorish Idol looks like he just came out of the sea. His dorsal streamer is gone and has been for two years and after the ich last week some of his tail is missing. I am nursing him back to his beautiful self now. The problem is my reef is only 100 gallons and the Idol is almost 7". He eats way too much to be in such a small tank and although I could get him to be as beautiful as he was, my water is suffering from all the food. There are about ten other fish in there but they are small mostly gobies, a mandarin and a copper band butterfly.
Have a great day.
Thank you for letting me visit.
Paul
The dish is all covered in coraline algae now

 

[Paul B]

This is that same fish a few years ago. The dish was nice and clean. As a side note, I collected that dish on a sunken tug boat in the Sound so I guess I can call it natural.

Paul