What defines a coral?

[ming]

I can't seem to find any specific definition of what defines a coral as different sources has different description but not limiting things.

Is an Anemone a coral?
I know they're related to mushrooms, which is a mushroom anemone and I think we all agree mushrooms are corals.

Is a Clam a coral?
What makes them so special if they're not a coral?

Its obvious that photosynthetic ability doesn't narrow it down because there are dendro's and gorgonians.
They all have mouths, etc

So whats your input?

 

[latino277]

from Dictionary.com:
coral

(k?r'əl) Pronunciation Key

1. <LI minmax_bound="true">Any of numerous small, sedentary cnidarians (coelenterates) of the class Anthozoa. Corals often form massive colonies in shallow sea water and secrete a cup-shaped skeleton of calcium carbonate, which they can retreat into when in danger. Corals are related to the sea anemones and have stinging tentacles around the mouth opening that are used to catch prey.
2. A hard, stony substance consisting of the skeletons of these animals. It is typically white, pink, or reddish and can form large reefs that support an abundance of ocean fish.

Clams are bivalve mollusks. not Coral.... I think????

 

[bad coffee]

Kingdom,
Phylum,
Class,
Order,
Family,
Genus,
Species.

anemones:
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Cnidaria
Class: Anthozoa
Subclass: Hexacorallia
Order: Actiniaria
46 families Suborders Endocoelantheae
Nyantheae
Protantheae
Ptychodacteae


Corals:
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Cnidaria
Class: Anthozoa
Ehrenberg,
1831 Extant Subclasses and Orders Alcyonaria
Alcyonacea
Helioporacea
Zoantharia
Antipatharia
Corallimorpharia
Scleractinia
Zoanthidea

and I really hate wikipedia for reference, but
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthozoa

They're both the same Class. Which if you want to say they're the same, then you have to think like:

Humans:
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Primates
Family: Hominidae
Genus: Homo
Species: H. sapiens
Subspecies: H. s. sapiens


Duck billed platipus:
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Monotremata
Family: Ornithorhynchidae
Genus: Ornithorhynchus
Blumenbach, 1800Both Humans and the platipus are both mammals. So are we the same?

and for the record, tank clams as you think of them:
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Mollusca
Class: Bivalvia
Order: Veneroida
Family: Tridacnidae
Genus: Tridacna
not even the same phylum as corals. so if you're saying anemones and clams are the same, you're saying humans and sponges are the same.

 

[ming]

Any of numerous small, sedentary cnidarians (coelenterates) of the class Anthozoa.

The above defintion matches that of sea anemones
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Cnidaria
Class: Anthozoa
Subclass: Hexacorallia
Order: Actiniaria

but if you wiki anemone
Kingdom: Plantae
Division: Magnoliophyta
Class: Magnoliopsida
Order: Ranunculales
Family: Ranunculaceae
Genus: Anemone

And I know we're not all scientist, so I was looking for a more easier that the average reefer could use to decide if they're a coral.

But what about zoo's? They don't have a skeleton of calcium carbonate. And there are some zoo's which I've seen their tentacles do not catch any food/prey, although some do, but some don't. The only thing which matches with the definition is that they form colonies. It seems some zoo's have a mouth which doesn't really do anything, kinda like our appendix. Maybe its been evolved to not use it but still have it?

 

[Deanos]

Coral

 

[ming]

Both Humans and the platipus are both mammals. So are we the same?

Your analogy would be better put as, are platypus and humans both mammals? Yes

not even the same phylum as corals. so if you're saying anemones and clams are the same, you're saying humans and sponges are the same.

And we're not saying they're the same, more like in the same group. How far along the scientific classification is another story. More on asking which part of the scientific classification is considered a "coral"

 

[bad coffee]

The above defintion matches that of sea anemones
{snip}
but if you wiki anemone
Kingdom: Plantae

I was pretty sure they were talking about the sea creature, not the flower!

And I know we're not all scientist, so I was looking for a more easier {way}the average reefer could use to decide if they're a coral.

That's easy. "Anemones are not corals, and corals are not anemones." that should do it.

But what about zoo's? They don't have a skeleton of calcium carbonate.

neither do mushrooms, or playthoas. But they're still corals.

And there are some zoo's which I've seen their tentacles do not catch any food/prey, although some do, but some don't. The only thing which matches with the definition is that they form colonies. It seems some zoo's have a mouth which doesn't really do anything, kinda like our appendix. Maybe its been evolved to not use it but still have it?

are you saying that different zoanthids are different species? You could be right. but it's kinda like humans. lots of different colors/shapes/habits that make us all different. Yet we are all homo sapiens

 

[Chiefmcfuz]

Because that's how the guy at the pet store sold it to me.

 

[bad coffee]

Your analogy would be better put as, are platypus and humans both mammals? Yes

And we're not saying they're the same, more like in the same group. How far along the scientific classification is another story. More on asking which part of the scientific classification is considered a "coral"

Let's look at another example: are dogs and cats the same?
Dogs:
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Carnivora
Family: Canidae
Cats:
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Carnivora
Family: Felidae


It's at 'Family' level we see the difference. So in this example we can say the discrimination on the change is at the family.

Anemones and corals change at the subclass/Order level, which is above the 'differences between dogs and cats'

B

 

[bad coffee]

Because that's how the guy at the pet store sold it to me.

you bought a playpus?

 

[tosiek]

:scratchch ......platypus tank........

 

[ming]

I was pretty sure they were talking about the sea creature, not the flower!

Yes, so its the first link I provided

That's easy. "Anemones are not corals, and corals are not anemones." that should do it.
neither do mushrooms, or playthoas. But they're still corals.

Thats like saying 2+3=4 and 4-3=2
You're stating something, whether it to be true or false without any explanation whatsoever.

neither do mushrooms, or playthoas. But they're still corals.

I would agree, but..
Which brings it back to the original question, what makes them a coral? or are you calling it a coral because everybody else does?

 

[reefman]

i say they r both NOT corals.
the term coral has been use too loosely.

 

[bad coffee]

Thats like saying 2+3=4 and 4-3=2
You're stating something, whether it to be true or false without any explanation whatsoever.

Untrue. Just like 2+3=4 in your statement.

I'm saying that corals are not anemones:

Corals and anemones belong to the order anthozoa
but are members of different sub-orders:

• Subclass Alcyonaria (= Octocorallia) (8-way symmetry)
  • Alcyonacea (soft corals)
  • Gorgonacea (sea fans, sea feathers)
  • Helioporacea (= Coenothecalia) (Indo-Pacific blue coral)
  • Pennatulacea (sea pens, sea pansies)
  • Stolonifera (organ-pipe coral, tree fern coral)
  • Telestacea (soft corals)
• Subclass Zoantharia (= Hexacorallia) (6-way symmetry)
  • Ceriantharia (tube-dwelling anemones)
  • Actiniaria (sea anemones)
  • Corallimorpharia
  • Numidiaphyllida ?
  • Scleractinia (= Madreporaria) (stony corals)
  • Kilbuchophyllida ?
  • Antipatharia (black corals, thorny corals)
  • Zoanthidea
  • Heterocorallia ?
  • Rugosa ? (= Tetracoralla) (horned corals)
  • Heliolitida ?
  • Tabulata ? (tabulate corals)
  • Cothoniida ?
  • Tabuloconida ?
  • Ptychodactiaria

so: corals are members of these subclasses:

• Subclass Alcyonaria (= Octocorallia) (8-way symmetry)
  • Alcyonacea (soft corals)
  • Gorgonacea (sea fans, sea feathers)
  • Helioporacea (= Coenothecalia) (Indo-Pacific blue coral)
  • Pennatulacea (sea pens, sea pansies)
  • Stolonifera (organ-pipe coral, tree fern coral)
  • Telestacea (soft corals)
• Subclass Zoantharia (= Hexacorallia) (6-way symmetry)
  • Corallimorpharia
  • Numidiaphyllida ?
  • Scleractinia (= Madreporaria) (stony corals)
  • Kilbuchophyllida ?
  • Antipatharia (black corals, thorny corals)
  • Zoanthidea
  • Heterocorallia ?
  • Rugosa ? (= Tetracoralla) (horned corals)
  • Heliolitida ?
  • Tabulata ? (tabulate corals)
  • Cothoniida ?
  • Tabuloconida ?
  • Ptychodactiaria

And anemones:
Subclass Zoantharia (= Hexacorallia) (6-way symmetry)

• Ceriantharia (tube-dwelling anemones)
• Actiniaria (sea anemones)

(just picking one example)
Anemones are (=) Actiniaria.
Corals are (=) Scleractinia.

Since we know Actiniaria is not (<>) Scleractinia, then we can say Anemones are not (<>) Corals.

using reflexive property, if Anenomes <> Corals, then Corals <> Anemones.

what you've stated starts with something untrue, as we know it. "2+3=4"
We know that 2+3=5.
Which in my "Anemones<>Corals therefore Corals<>Anemones" would translate into 5=2+3.

 

[ming]

Thanks for the details!
So from Dean's link

There are two general categories of coral: hexacorals and octocorals.

This appears to be defined in the subclass
According to that, anything within the subclass of Alcyonaria or Zoantharia would be considered a coral.
Now, just focusing on the Zoantharia,
The complete order list of Zoantharia are:
* Ceriantharia (tube-dwelling anemones)
* Actiniaria (sea anemones)
* Corallimorpharia
* Numidiaphyllida †
* Scleractinia (stony corals)
* Kilbuchophyllida †
* Antipatharia (black corals, thorny corals)
* Zoanthidea
* Heterocorallida †
* Rugosa †
* Heliolitida †
* Tabulata †
* Cothoniida †
* Tabuloconida †
* Ptychodactiaria

Why is it that we are not willing to accept the first 2 orders as corals, but readily accept all the rest as coral? According to the quote from Dean's site, it should be included because sea anemone falls into that category.

Zoantharia = Coral
Actiniaria = Zoantharia
Therefore Actiniaria = Coral

 

[Solace Aquatics LLC]

Kingdom,
Phylum,
Class,
Order,
Family,
Genus,
Species.

anemones:
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Cnidaria
Class: Anthozoa
Subclass: Hexacorallia
Order: Actiniaria
46 families Suborders Endocoelantheae
Nyantheae
Protantheae
Ptychodacteae


Corals:
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Cnidaria
Class: Anthozoa
Ehrenberg,
1831 Extant Subclasses and Orders Alcyonaria
Alcyonacea
Helioporacea
Zoantharia
Antipatharia
Corallimorpharia
Scleractinia
Zoanthidea

and I really hate wikipedia for reference, but
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthozoa

They're both the same Class. Which if you want to say they're the same, then you have to think like:

Humans:
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Primates
Family: Hominidae
Genus: Homo
Species: H. sapiens
Subspecies: H. s. sapiens


Duck billed platipus:
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Monotremata
Family: Ornithorhynchidae
Genus: Ornithorhynchus
Blumenbach, 1800Both Humans and the platipus are both mammals. So are we the same?

and for the record, tank clams as you think of them:
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Mollusca
Class: Bivalvia
Order: Veneroida
Family: Tridacnidae
Genus: Tridacna
not even the same phylum as corals. so if you're saying anemones and clams are the same, you're saying humans and sponges are the same.

:funnypost

Dead on the money as usual Brett

 

[bad coffee]

Zoantharia = Coral
Actiniaria = Zoantharia
Therefore Actiniaria = Coral

good point. (and simple logic I missed!)

so they ARE corals.

So should we aim to get them changed to a different sub-order? or change our thinking?

 

[ming]

good point. (and simple logic I missed!)

so they ARE corals.

So should we aim to get them changed to a different sub-order? or change our thinking?

No problem, you provided all the links for me to read which pointed it out :lol2:
I think the scientist classifies them in a certain sub-order for a reason, so its probably our thinking that needs to be changed.
I'm thinking you have 8 followers which need to be convinced haha

 

[nikkibabee]

What just happened!

 

[reefman]

its algebra


-everybody wants to b a coral-