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MaryHM

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If the mimic blennies are "flesh eaters", that's more of what I'd call a nuisance species than something that can't be kept alive. Maybe after we finish the "unsuitable for import" list we can start an "unsuitable to keep for beginners/everyone" type list. I would think a flesh eating fish would definitely be a candidate there!
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farmertodd

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Mary,

Would you like lists here or on the new thread you created?

Were you going to add a "Size Matters" category which would accompany sharks, rays, skates, etc and then standard juvenile "fill" species such as grunts, snapper, marine cats and their like? And how defined would we want that? Do you want me to sit here with the Baensch Bible and just count them off? Roll call anyone?
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Or were you just going to stick with the obligate feeding list for now? Might not be a bad idea since Tollucks list was fairly extensive, and defined so far by common names. As a suggestion, Butterflies may actually be more simple by exclusion (ie name the ones we do keep just fine
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Todd
 
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Anonymous

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Taz,
Take the Great Barrier reef for example. There are many scientific studies that show the reef produces(this is from memory so if the numbers are wrong please forgive me) 200 million tons of rock. This is from the deposit of calcium by corals and die off. The allowable harvest is 20 million tons. Since the reef far out produces the take, it is a sustainable harvest. By that measure, one should know reproductive of the animals we take to be sure we are not depleting the resource. I think that is extremely important. The quantities must be known.

As for obligate feeders. I am of the opinion that, if the food is easy to provide, there shouldn't be a problem with the importation, provided the public would be willing to provide it. The food for, take the blenny for example, is easy to provide, but how many people want to keep an animal that would be trying to eat all the other fish in the tank? I think there has to be some common sense involved. Since an extraordinarily small number of people want their fish eaten, leave them in the water. If someone really wants one, they can get a CITES permit and have fun fishing. Do you think it is possible for exporters and wholesalers to actually use common sense? Or would the determining factor be the importer?

My Tullock book is at work so i will defer on the rest of the list until tomorrow.
 

MaryHM

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Let's just deal with one catagory at a time. Obligate feeders for now. All information should be posted here, then the other thread will be used to keep our findings in an easy to reach place.
 

naesco

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Farmertodd and Mary
I missed the English list but file fish are on the Latin List of Tullock

Orange-spotted Filefish Monacanthidae oxymonacanthus longirostris
and
Red sea orang-spotte filefish O. halli

Sorry
 

naesco

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Mary
It pretty hard to argue against inclusion for the first choices here.
I was thinking that we add the shirmpfish and the 3 blennies to the list and you open a new thread on butterflys.
A bit of an intro and summary and than all can comment. Otherwise this thread will get pretty long.
Thanks
 

tazdevil

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O.k., final question about LR here (sorry, must ask). Lets say that a certain amount is added every year. Then, that is determined as the amount removable every year to sustain a reef. Everything should be o.k. right? I am not convinced- one part of the puzzle is missing, and its a biggie. Storms, some enviro-plague (like the crown-of-thorns starfish invasion of Australia) or other NATURAL disaster. Now, much more of the reef than normal is "grinded" to dust. What control would there be for this? A temporary ban for that area until such time has passed as to deem the area "recovered"?
 

SPC

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Taz, what I would hope for is that this portion would be shut down until it has recovered. I don't know if this is what's done in actual practice however.
Steve
 

MaryHM

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taz- I want to try to keep the threads in this forum as "on topic" as possible. If you want to discuss live rock collection, please open a new thread.

Ok, I think we have the blennies nailed down. But what about the shrimpfish? We need to figure out what "minuscle live food" means. It is live brine? Live mysis? Live 'pods??? In other words, is it something we can easily provide and is inexpensive or not??
 
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Anonymous

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According to fishbase.org

Shrimpfish:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
Found in small groups near or among long-spined sea urchins and branching corals. Feeds on planktonic crustaceans (Ref. 9710). Swims vertically, with a head-down position (Ref. 5462).

Here is the refernece to the diet...
Lieske, E. and R. Myers, 1994 Lieske, E. and R. Myers, 1994. Collins Pocket Guide. Coral reef fishes. Indo-Pacific & Caribbean including the Red Sea. Haper Collins Publishers, 400 p.

And according to Scott Michaels "Reef Fishes"

"Shrimpfishes can be kept in aquariums as small as 30 gallons and will thrive in captivity as long as thier dietary needs are met. This requires providing a source of minute, living crustaceans like brine shrimp, amphipods, copepods, and shrimp larvae.....A colony of Peppermint Shrimp (Lysmata wurdemanni) although not sympatric with these fishes-will add food items by breeding and producing larvae."

Glenn

[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: Rover ]</p>
 

naesco

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"Obviously they should be off the list"
Why is that Mary?
If you provide another fish that the mimic blennies can dart out and take a chunk out of its dietary needs can be met.
When we deal with the butterflyfish perhaps some of them could live in a pristine tank where an industrious reefer provides a continued supply of live sponge.
Or are you now changing your definition of obligate feeders.
 
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Anonymous

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I have not kept shrimpfish, but I know people who have and I have some familiarity with their husbandry. I believe they can be kept very much like one would keep seahorses; same sort of species tank, same sort of feeding routines and diet.
 

dmentnich

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First I would like to appologize to Marry as this is not a species- specific post and I am not sure where else to put it as it does relate to the origional topic. As a newcomer to the hobby and very new to the idea of these forums I figure I will add my 2 cents worth and likley upset a few people while doing it. First, I do not know if I support the idea that these species should be banned outright for import. I feel that there are certianly people out there who would endure the price/headaches of setting up tanks to house some hard to keep fish. I know of one person who has just set up a VERY large tank to keep a shark housed. Granted this person has far too much money, but he has shown that he is willing to spend it to keep his fish happy and healthy. That being said, alot of fish undoubtedly die in tanks because of the lack of knowledge/greed of the LFS. I was told for my second coral that the gonipora was an easy to keep piece and that the bleany was a good pick for my third fish (they are both still alive and doing well after 5 mos
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) I do not attribute this to skill so much as luck and realize that may people are not so luck and both may well die before the new year. I would really like to see "cards" provided with the fish to the LFS which they could display or "brochures" to distribute giving the care requirements (light, tank size, ease of care, feed etc...) and have people decide for themselves if it is suitable for them. We have care instructions for cloths (put there so I can avoid dry clean only,) and I can even go to my supermarket and get cards on the care and cooking of fruit, but no such thing exists for hard to care for fish species??? I know if I went to my LFS or had a copy of the card available at an on-line store I would look at it first and take it's recomendations over the clerks. Some stores may choose not to post the cards or make them available to the customer, but very soon I believe that people would question why and what they were hiding and eventually avoid the store or pick up the cards elsewhere. I realize that all this info on care is in books/ online, but many people, myself included are not so smart when the first buy fish and try to maintain a reef
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. My respect goes to those who were smart enough to research all their purchases. Anyhow, even if it is decided that legislation should ban the import of certian species this would be a good way for the industry to show that they are trying to solve some problems on their own and to do so voluntarily (after all printing is not overly expensive now, perhaps tack on 10 cents per fish or coral.) One other suggestion which falls short of an outright ban would be making animals with very specialized requirements a special order item. Most people who special order an animal know the requirements and feel that they have a set up which allows keeping it healthy as they are likley going through extra trouble/expense to order it. Yes, I know that this may have to be legislated as many owners would not like to stop importing good sellers. Sorry, no suggestions for fish with high mortality rates in shipping.
Just my long 2 cents.

[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: danny150 ]
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[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: danny150 ]</p>
 

MaryHM

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cjdevito- thanks for the info on the shrimpfish. That seals the deal- they're off the list.

A program similiar to what you're talking about- species husbandry flyers at the LFS- is in the works. It'll be a Godsend!
 

naesco

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[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: naesco ]

[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: naesco ]</p>
 

JeremyR

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As far as the cards go: there are books out there that have all the info and more, many people are just either too lazy or too cheap to buy them, or spend the time reading them. No offense intended to anyone, but if a person can't take the time to read a book, or doesn't want to spend the 30 or 40 dollars for the book.. then they have no business being in this hobby.
 

dmentnich

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I will not argue with you that anybody who is not even willing to take the time to learn about the fish should not buy it, but the fact remains that you would have a tough time banning them from owning a reef tank. As I said, I did not research my first purchases nor the equipment I needed. I bought a used tank with equipment and figured that salt water should be the same as fresh water (yes, I was wrong.) I thought that I had all the equipment needed (1 light, 1 fluval 303 some rock for the bottom and a heater.) I went to the LFS asked what I could cycle the tank with and what nutrients and food to add and went on my way smiling (after all, I had kept fish and plants and it WAS simple.) I started to read about a month in and discovered I had made a mistake. So far I have lost one damsel while cycling the tank and one coral since (only luck that the tank did not crash.) I am still learning and it is taking time, but I figure that I am not the only one who went in blind and thought that a clerk being paid min. wage would be knowledgeable and helpful and honest. I am simply saying that cards or special order may dissuade beginers from buying the "pretty mandrin" (which was also recomended as and easy to keep fish.)
 

Rich-n-poor

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While I appreciate the lists given so far it would be more helpful to me if someone could post a list of readily available fish to avoid.

for example I know mandarians are very common at LFS yet require a large established tank to thrive. Tangs are readily available (blue and yellow) but also require a larger tank.

I try to buy tank raised fish and fragged corals whenever possible. Was the rock beauty angel mentioned on page 1 what I know as a coral beauty ?
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