USL- Last Set of Animals from the List!!!

[MaryHM]

Ok guys- here's the next set of animals up for discussion:

Haemulidae
plectorhinchus chaetodonoides clown sweetlips

Labroides sp.- Cleaner Wrasses
Anampses tarmarin- There are quite a few species under this Genus
Labropsis sp.- About 3 species, none of which I've ever seen imported (that doesn't mean they aren't)
Macropharyngodon sp.- These are the leopard wrasses
Paracheilinus sp- Filament and Flasher wrasses- about 4 sp.
Pseuojuloides sp.- Several sp. of pencil wrasse
Stethojulis sp.


I'm not aware that any of these are obligate feeders, correct me if I'm wrong. Of course, the cleaner wrasse pretty much is, but the "food" can be provided in the form of having other fish in the tank. I think the main reason for not having these is collection impacts the ecosystem negatively. We need some documentation if that is the case.

[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: MaryHM ]

[ December 24, 2001: Message edited by: MaryHM ]

[ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: MaryHM ]</p>

 

[tazdevil]

Mary- the labroides are obligate feeders, that is they feed on parisites and fish slime in order to survive. Granted, there is an occasional "oddball" that will eat frozen/flake foods, but that is very rare. The main problem with this form of obligate feeder is that our tanks in no way supply the amount of parasites/fish slime available to support them. John Tullock's reefkeeping goes into this. What's with the filament/flasher's? I thought they where all carnivores, but not "obligate's". Can you shed some light on these?

 

[naesco]

Before I realized the fish were on the impossible list I tried the clown sweetlips. It just went downhill over a period of 4 months.
Ditto for the pencil wrasse and cleaner wrasse. Other wrasse I keep are not a problem.
Tullock says
"The clown Sweetlips (Plectorhinchus chaetodonoides, which mimics a toxic invertebrate and is perhaps toxic itself, feeds at night on a variety of living invertebrates and genrally refuses to eat in the aquarium"

 

[sedgro]

Mary-

Honestly, I don't understand why flashers should even be on the list. I have never seen one that is reluctant to feed. They are planktivores/ microfauna feeders. Some seem to suffer in shipping but I think this is more due to poor handling practices in the Phillipines/ Indonesia than anything else.

In my experience leopard wrasse are a hit or miss group. Seem to do well in the same conditions as mandarins - large reef tank with an ample microfauna population. I've had two of the most commonly seen species do great initially and then fail to show up one morning. Supposedly the M. chaoti leopard wrasse from Australia is a hardier choice - or perhaps its hardy because it is handled better coming out of Australia.

The Anampses genus also seems to be a group that suffers in shipping. They are prone to getting skin or oral infections (protrudding teeth that rub on the bag) and usually fail to recover. I admit that I have a male A. chrysocephalus from Hawaii which I have had for about two months now. He fed eagerly in the LFS and has done so at home. Lost weight until I de-wormed him with piperizine however.

I have kept on Stethojulis wrasse. The "Belted" species from Hawaii. Ate great in the store and at home but continued to lose weight no matter how much I fed it. Always active - I have seen them in the wild very active as well and constantly feeding. Perhaps we can't feed them enough at home to keep up with their metabolic rates.

Just my 2 cents.

John

 

[JeremyR]

<<I have kept on Stethojulis wrasse. The "Belted" species from Hawaii. Ate great in the store and at home but continued to lose weight no matter how much I fed it. Always active - I have seen them in the wild very active as well and constantly feeding. Perhaps we can't feed them enough at home to keep up with their metabolic rates.>>

I have recieved Stethojulis a few times as fill from the soloman islands. I had no problem getting them to eat, but I never managed to keep any of them alive.

I agree flasher wrasses should not be on the list.. I've never had a problem with them.

I personally do not bring in leapord wrasses.. the few I have recieved going back ate well, but nobody kept them alive for any length of time.. so I stopped getting them. I know there are success stories out there.. but like the mandarin, I believe the fish is better left off my personal import list.

 

[naesco]

Thank you Sedgro for a balanced opinion.
I wanted to draw evryone's attention to a list complied by industry entitled 'fishes with extreme dietary specializations.' www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1998/april/eq/default.asp
It is published by the American Marine Dealers Association (AMDA)
It lists almost all the fish on the list we are considering.
The butterflys which have received few comments on are on the list.
The industry also lists the shrimpfish, Mary.
I also note that the flasher wrasse are on the list.
If the industry has the species we are talking about already listed, why is it so difficult to simply adopt our list?
Mary for those species that you consider grey, does not the appearance of those species on the AMDA list move them back to our list?
In other words if industry itself recognizes these, any uncertainty weighs on the environmentalist side.
Because of the existance of the AMDA list,it seems to me that if industry is prepared to take the next step and ban these species, the chances of environmentalists and government encroaching on our hobby are greatly diminished.

 

[JeremyR]

naesco: I don't think the AMDA list is in any way an "industry adopted list", it is pretty much my understanding that it was john tullock's personal list.

 

[MaryHM]

Jeremy is exactly right. AMDA was founded by John Tullock, so the list we're working from and the AMDA list are basically the same. As a board member of AMDA for the past couple of years, I can say that I do not feel this list is an "industry adopted list", because up until a few months ago AMDA was focused on being an elite retailers organization- not a spokes-organization for the industry.

 

[naesco]

Ok, I didn't know that.
So let me see if I can gather some further industry opinions.
Thank you

 

[JeremyR]

Naesco: You are going to find that *every* major wholesaler in LA imports most of the fish on the AMDA list, and could really give a crap about it. That's how come most LFS's carry most of those fish. They don't even always know what they are selling.. it's common to see "assorted butterflies" or "assorted wrasses" on lists, and people order them and get a "pot luck" of fish.

 

[MaryHM]

Apparently the only questionable obligate feeder here is the cleaner wrasse. Can we get some documentation from somewhere stating they are obligate feeders on parasites/fish slime?? I'll move the other fish over to the "Not on the USL" and we'll discuss them when we start working on the "You shouldn't keep these" list.

Here's the next set of animals:


Hoplolatilus purpureus- purple tilefish

monacanthidae
Oxymonacanthus longirostris orange spotted filefish
O. halli red sea orange-spotted filefish

Rhinomuraena quaesita black, blue ribbon eel

Tilefish- I know they have a poor track record, but not sure why.

Orange spot filefish- Are obligate feeders on either sponge or coral polyps (I can't remember). We need some documentation though. See what you can find.

Ribbon Eels- Again, I know they have a really poor track record because we can't get them to eat in captivity. Documentation??

[ December 24, 2001: Message edited by: MaryHM ]</p>

 

[Anonymous]

Personal experience with Purple Tilefish:

Had one in my store for about 6 months. Ate like a pig. Finally went carpet surfing.

Glenn

 

[Anonymous]

I know people that have kept ribbon eels with great success and I know people who cant get one to live. My understanding is that their collection and handling is usually rather poor and by the time they get to the home they are too far gone to make a turn around.

 

[SPC]

From Bob Fenners Conscientious Marine Aquarist:

"Obligates, like the Labroides wrasses, get all or virtually all their nutrition from their cleaning activity."
"Experimental removal of some of these cleaners in the wild has demonstrated their immense importance as parasite controls. Local or even large pelagic fish populations are quickly and negatively impacted by their removal. Fish populations drop or migrate, and remaining fishes loose fitness as measured by increased external parasite loads, sores, and torn fins."

"The frequently offered Longnose Filefish (Oxymonacanthus lonirostris) sometimes confusingly called the Orangespotted Filefish, only eats coral polyps. Leave it in the ocean unless you are farming corals."
"In fact, I think the whole genus Oxymonacanthus is corallivorous and should be avoided."

"Rhinomuraena quaesita, the Ribbon Eel, is among those with a low survival rate. In my estimation, 99% of these delicate beauties do not live a month in captivity. most starve, refusing all food. Others escape through the smallest of top openings or through plumbing. Finally, there is that perplexing but real cause of death - simple stress."
Steve

[ December 25, 2001: Message edited by: SPC ]</p>

 

[Bill2]

My question about cleaner fish is not is it an obligate feeder but what is the impact of it's removal on the reef. Cleaner fish provide a necessary function on the reef and removal of them would impact the reef directly.

It is unknown what is the range of a cleaning station meaning how far fish travel to visit a cleaning station. So I would put this fish on the Unsuitablitity list not due to it's feeding requirements but due it's function on the reef.

 

[MaryHM]

Thanks SPC!

So the Cleaners and Filefish should be moved to the USL. But I don't think the ribbon eels should be. I think they are better left for the "Don't try to keep this" list, as it is not proven that they are obligate feeders. Opinions?

 

[FMarini]

About the blue ribbon eels.
I've notice more people reporting success w/ these fish(I guess this is more than before). I suspect its based on what i would consider awareness and better husbandry techniques.
Before people who purchased these eels kept them in tanks full of aggressive feeding fish (triggers, tanget, etc) and wondered why they never ate and perished.
More recently i have read threads where people keep these ribbon eels in species-only tanks. Where the eel gets to fed at its leisure, and intially feeds on live ghost shrimp, apparently once you get them feeding they will eat almost anything. In the past month i've fielded possibly 3 or 4 comments from people who've gotten blue ribbon (or the white-ghost eels) onto dead prepared foods. Definately a step up.

So I would NOT say they are obligate feeders, they are just finicky, and until people can dedicate their time and effort towards their husbandry.....
they should be placed on the "for advanced hobbist" category
my opinion
frank

[ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: FMarini ]</p>

 

[SPC]

Sounds good to me Mary.
Thanks for your response Frank, I for one respect your input greatly!

Do we have and advanced hobbiest category Mary? I like that idea.
Steve

 

[MaryHM]

No such list yet SPC- that's the one I keep saying we'll work on when we're done with this one.

 

[MaryHM]

Ok. I've updated the main USL thread with the changes. I've put the cleaner wrasse and orange spot filefish on the USL and put the rest on the other list. Here's the last set of critters from Tullock's main list.

platacidae
platax pinnatus red-finned batfish

Pomacanthidae angelfish
centropyge boylei boyle's
C. multifasciatus multi-barred
desmoholacanthus arcuatus bandit
holacanthus tricolor rock beauty
pygoplites diacanthus regal

scaridae parrotfish
bolbometopon spp
cetoscarus spp
scarisoma spp
scarus spp

zanclidae
zanclus cornutus Moorish Idol


It is my opinion that NONE of these fish are obligate feeders. I'll give you guys a day or so to let me know if I'm wrong, otherwise we'll put them on the "Hard to Keep" list and move on.