What can MAC do?

[Jaime Baquero]

Jaime,

I get that idea from listening to NGOs. I don't know any of them that think the problem can be solved in any way other than pumping a ton of money and some staff into the situation. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. That's why I said "idea", not "fact".

On another note. I know nothing of Haribon or OVI and have never spoke one ill word about them. I'm not going to get dragged into this "Which NGO did what and how and without any help from the industry" conversation which has been so pervasive in this forum as of late.

Mary,

You are wrong. No one from the NGO community has given the idea that fisherfolks are idiots. Fisherfolks do have a face and have been asking the industry for help, they have been sending signals telling the industry that there is a way to solve the problem but the industry keeps ignoring them. I think the idea of idiots could apply to other stakeholders of the industry.

Good reaction regarding Haribon/OVI

jaime

 

[MaryHM]

Jaime,

When I am hearing that the only way to solve this problem is for some NGO to step in and "take care of it", I come away with the feeling that they think the collectors are totally incapable of doing it themselves or through some other means. I'm not hearing that from you in particular, it's just a general sense. And I won't argue with you that there are plenty of liars, cheats, and idiots in this industry. But instead of harping on the whole topic of NGO "bashing", I would prefer to try to move forward from here. Get real answers to real questions. See exactly where everything stands right now so we can move forward from that point. But it's kinda hard to do when the so called only game in town refuses to answer anything publicly with straightforward answers.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Mary,

I hope you understand the solution to the environmental problem created by the trade in the Philippines and IN will require more than just a transfer of technology. Net training and a Fair trade for fish collectors are only two of the pieces of the puzzle.

The problem is more complicated than readers can imagine . Environmental education, alternative livelihoods, and addressing coastal communities social aspects are also important aspects that must be tackled. Filipino government willingness and commitment to protect its natural resources as well as law enforcement are necessary signs that would show a real reform response.

jaime

 

[clarionreef]

Dear class,
In order to be taken seriously in any village of serious cyanide fishing you must first win credibility by being relevant and useful.
If you come "save coral reefs" and to take away the cyanide bottle you must first offer something better in its place. Training and netting material in hand enable the diver to continue making a living that very week. Offering him alternative livelihood from the outset for HIS agenda [ not yours] is the key to being welcome in his village in the first place. Net training is simply vocational, alternative livlihood training and it is the first thing of value you must offer to pave the way for other agendas one may have.
Environmental education and "adressing" coastal communities social aspects...ie speaking to ALL their problems in health, education, alcoholism, wife beating, childrens welfare, justice, smuggling, siltation, crime,corruption etc. etc. are not what you come in and blather on about first.
FIRST you offer a way to make more money fishing legally.This serves to calm fears of not caring for family and going to jail if caught cyanide fishing. These are two wonderful gifts that the fisherman can appreciate and help you to win respect and become friends. All the rest flows more easily once that has been established...first.
This is the successful approach that launched this movement decades ago. Abandoning it to foreign notions and outsiders esoteric and philisophical ideas on converting fisherman have failed...predictably.
Marys netting will now find its way into some fishermans hands who were already trained properly long ago yet had to wait all this time to get some netting to go with the rhetoric.
Steve

 

[mkirda]

Dear class,

All,

This is one of the more information-packed posts ever in this forum.
Everyone would do well to read past the fact that it was written by Steve in his own personal style, and concentrate on the message.

The message is as close to the truth as you will ever read in this forum.

I'm impressed, Steve.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Dear class,
In order to be taken seriously in any village of serious cyanide fishing you must first win credibility by being relevant and useful.
If you come "save coral reefs" and to take away the cyanide bottle you must first offer something better in its place. Training and netting material in hand enable the diver to continue making a living that very week. Offering him alternative livelihood from the outset for HIS agenda [ not yours] is the key to being welcome in his village in the first place. Net training is simply vocational, alternative livlihood training and it is the first thing of value you must offer to pave the way for other agendas one may have.
Environmental education and "adressing" coastal communities social aspects...ie speaking to ALL their problems in health, education, alcoholism, wife beating, childrens welfare, justice, smuggling, siltation, crime,corruption etc. etc. are not what you come in and blather on about first.
FIRST you offer a way to make more money fishing legally.This serves to calm fears of not caring for family and going to jail if caught cyanide fishing. These are two wonderful gifts that the fisherman can appreciate and help you to win respect and become friends. All the rest flows more easily once that has been established...first.
This is the successful approach that launched this movement decades ago. Abandoning it to foreign notions and outsiders esoteric and philisophical ideas on converting fisherman have failed...predictably.
Marys netting will now find its way into some fishermans hands who were already trained properly long ago yet had to wait all this time to get some netting to go with the rhetoric.
Steve

Steve,

It is a shame, that you weren't there from 1993 to 2001. You do not have the foggiest idea about how the programs were implemented.

Converting fisherman have failed? You are wrong . There is a good number of those fishermen that learnt how to use nets and are still using them. I am sure you have sold and you are selling many fish collected by fisherfolks trained by Haribon/OVI. We are happy for you, collectors will feel great knowing that to some degree they do contribute to your livelihood.

It would be more adequate to say that the INDUSTRY has failed , it would be more appropiate to say that the initiatives implemented in the Philippines didn't reach the expected results because of lack of interest and support from the industry.

Jaime

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Dear class,

All,

This is one of the more information-packed posts ever in this forum.
Everyone would do well to read past the fact that it was written by Steve in his own personal style, and concentrate on the message.

The message is as close to the truth as you will ever read in this forum.

I'm impressed, Steve.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Mike,

The truth? You'll be surprise.

Jaime

 

[mkirda]

The truth? You'll be surprise.

Jaime

Jaime,

Surprised? In what way?

The fishermen I met who knew of Haribon... Well, let's just say that they did not hold Haribon in a very high regard.

I cannot say how widespread those feelings are, Jaime. But these guys were pretty adament.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Mike,

Do not get to close to Robinson seems it spreads. :lol:

I am going to ignore this comment . Please do not come back with something like this. Is better for all.

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Mike,

I meant ...... too close

 

[Anonymous]

So, from what I gather in reading between the lines, is that someone here is lying. Steve sez one thing, Jamie sez another, Mike(s) say one thing, John Brandt sez another.

It's no wonder cyanide is still rampant in it's use. It just seems like one big argument. Who's telling the truth?

It's getting really difficult to follow along...I can't even keep track of who is on who's side anymore...

Peace,

Chip

 

[mkirda]

Mike,

Do not get to close to Robinson seems it spreads. :lol:

I am going to ignore this comment . Please do not come back with something like this. Is better for all.

Jaime,

I will choose to talk to everyone I think has something to contribute.
Even Steve Robinson.

As for the comment, you can choose to ignore it. Doesn't matter to me.
The comment wasn't made by me, it was made by one of the former Haribon trainees. Choose to ignore your former trainees at your own peril. No skin off my nose.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[MaryHM]

I am going to ignore this comment . Please do not come back with something like this. Is better for all.

This head in the sand mentality is what is killing reform. This idea of "don't ever say anything bad about us or we'll stick our fingers in our ears, close our eyes, and pretend it doesn't exist" is the problem! When flaws/problems/serious questions are presented to NGOs they must stop ignoring them. They must start to correct themselves, listen to people, and work toward solutions. But how can you ever work toward a solution if you don't admit there is a problem??? By not saying what Mike did, is it really "better for all"? Or is it just better for Haribon because they don't lose face?

 

[mkirda]

It's no wonder cyanide is still rampant in it's use. It just seems like one big argument. Who's telling the truth?

It's getting really difficult to follow along...I can't even keep track of who is on who's side anymore...

Peace,

Chip

Chip,

You are only just begining to scratch the surface of the Rashomon-esque world of the Philippines...

Do not get discouraged. In fact, I would encourage you to go yourself.
We need more people to go over and visit different villages and report back what they are seeing. Then and only then will the various truths become known.

I do not doubt that John Brandt is speaking the truth as to what he knows. But the truth remains that his tour was a far, far different view of 'the truth' than what I experienced. He strictly viewed one area that had been certified, then attended a 'graduation ceremony' for a second area, all with MAC personnel in attendance. John does not speak or understand any of the language, and had to rely on MAC personnel to do the translating for him.
In my case, in Palauig, Roger could speak halting English. When he couldn't express himself, he asked Ferdinand to translate. I understand a decent amount of the language (being married into a Filipino family), but more importantly, I had my wife in tow who could tell me when Ferdie didn't quite hit the nuances properly. I can tell you that this was crucial to my understanding. The same was true in Coron.

My point? Perspective colors the truth.
John is not lying and neither am I.
We just happen to see things differently.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[devils advocate]

Mike,

Isn't this the problem of the reform movement? Everyone is looking at the solution from a different angle. They all want to get to the same place but when you look at the map upside down it looks a lot different than from right side up.

 

[mkirda]

Mike,

Isn't this the problem of the reform movement? Everyone is looking at the solution from a different angle. They all want to get to the same place...

There are tons of problems, everywhere, all around you.
Sometimes there are ways to deal with them that make sense.
Sometimes people do things that don't make sense.

You need to build on the what has been shown to actually work.
Find out what worked (and more importantly, why it worked) and the rest is fairly easy.

One thing strikes me though, Devil...
Are you sure that they all want to get to the same place?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

I never thought the sump would come out as a more sane place to be in comparison to any other forum.

Holy cow is there a whole lotta stuff going on in this place.

 

[Len]

Told you topside is interesting

 

[JeremyR]

I'm not sure if this is topside.. I think it's the mud under the sand in the sumpfugium.

 

[Anonymous]

Mike,

Isn't this the problem of the reform movement? Everyone is looking at the solution from a different angle. They all want to get to the same place but when you look at the map upside down it looks a lot different than from right side up.

methinks it's also a matter of thinking that one's paricular angle is the only valid one :wink: