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Chucker

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I got into an interesting discussion with one of the regular denizens of #reefs today, and it made me stop and think about where we as a hobby are going and what we're trying to achieve. Sooner or later, the issue of importation for our hobby is going to come to a head. If we're not prepared, we may be in for a big surprise. The following are a few things I put on the table for discussion-

Who and what to believe?
The information the hobbyist at large receives is quite often fragmented. Information also tends to be slighted favoring the agenda of the party presenting the info. Dribs and drabs of information are picked up here and there, but rarely presented whole. No system for verifying rumors exists. No central clearinghouse for confirmed, complete info exists. Since there is no complete picture, the hobbyist errs on the side of caution, and takes no action. Action is called for often on legislative issues, but is rarely taken at the hobbyist level, mainly for two reasons- lack of interest and "boy who cried wolf syndrome", since action has been called for many times in the past, but nothing has really changed at the hobbyist level.

Who can affect change?
Hobbyist and industry groups have no authority. Membership in MASNA, MAC, and/or AMDA is voluntary, and their names are rarely heard among the average hobbyist. Although these organizations are trying to affect change each in their own way, there is no commonly perceived short-term benefit to the hobbyist, retailer, or middleman. Until a short-term benefit can be realized, the long-term benefits must be promoted. Even more important, these organizations have to get the word out to the general hobbyist public about their existance and what they are trying to achieve. If Joe Hobbyist has never heard of MAC for example, what incentive does he have to support their programs, or even make his voice heard in the first place?

When will things change?
This is anyone's guess. The real key is stated above- demonstrate the need for change at a grassroots level. Take the initiative before government steps in. Many people have compared the marine aquarium industry to SCUBA diving. While I don't ever see the day that one will have to flash a membership card to be able to purchase livestock, I do see a great potential for a self-regulating industry. SCUBA divers as a whole have become self-policing, and the marine aquarium industry can do the same if the long-term benefits are presented to the hobby at large.
 

Kalkbreath

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What exactly are we trying to accomplish? If it is to help the Reefs, then lets do something that helps the reefs.......If it is to tward off a possible total ban on importation of reef fish , then lets show "them" how important this hobby is to the protection of the reefs.....by showing "them" how if it was not for the hobby demand for coral and healthy fish.....which can only come from a healthy non food fish blasted, un-strip mined for portland cement, keep your Mohogany lumber mill effluent out of our lagoon because:"this reef is a goldmine for American hobby pet fish collection"....and if we catch any one harming it{the reef} we Natives are going to eat you! This is the best hope for the Reefs, the hobby and the Natives is it not? What is WRONG with the truth! Offering up a peace offering to the gods...... such as this useless ban on twelve Coral munching fish is a spineless approach to adressing the real problem........
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Kalkbreath

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Also ,is it not a shame that a Morish idol costs $1.65 or that a Bicolor Angel $1.95 from the islands? Maybe if more money actually went to the collectors ,that hobby money would make keeping the reefs healthy THE most single important industry on the islands. 90 % of all fish come from the Philippines, and have for twenty years.......these small Islands, even today have little problem supplying the world both the Hobby fish and much of the Worlds {reef fish} food fish. This is with all the cynide and Blast fishing......if we paid these people more, May be they would stop the destructive food fishing and not allow industrial mining and polution of their reefs?because the Pet fish Hobby pays more for a healthy reef the the cement co. Secondly . Take a good look at a World map of the Indo Islands...........the places we collect fish for the hobby are so few, that even if all the fish we gone from these locations, 98% of the fish in the Indo Pacific would remain! Cities and the U.S.wildlife service Have No reef fish on their lists of not permited for import .....because not one fish is in danger of being over harvested. Yes in some locations where we collect many fish are harder to find ..but this has more to do with the fact that the only places we collect are within close prox. to an airport. And there are not to many Air ports In the Indo Pacific with flights on a constant basis. We as a hobby need to reley on the truth as our best deterant to any over reactive Governmental body inacting a ban.....Instead of pretending there is a problem.
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Chucker

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Kalkbreath:
<strong>What is WRONG with the truth! Offering up a peace offering to the gods...... such as this useless ban on twelve Coral munching fish is a spineless approach to adressing the real problem........</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'd say absolutely nothing is wrong with the truth. Problem is, the aquarium industry can't do diddly about slash and burn farming, lumbering, blast fishing, and problems of that nature. I fail to see how the USL is bad for the reef in general- at least something is being attempted to reduce the number of fish that shouldn't be imported in the first place. As for leaving more corallivores on the reef, they were they for a very long time before we started colelcting them in the first place.

(had to fix the durned UBB code)

[ March 14, 2002: Message edited by: Chucker ]</p>
 

JeremyR

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Chucker,

Some more random thoughts. We have a 7 day hold policy on all incoming fish, and don't sell them before their 7 day period is up. Some customers think that is really cool, but alot of them don't like it at all.. some even get angry. If people can't even accept that something like that is in their best interest, I don't know if you can ever get a serious grass roots thing going with any kind of membership #'s. I don't think I've seen any % change in behavior since we opened here, even tho education both from us and from places like reefs.org would seem to be on the rise. When it comes down to it, people who care are going to care naturally, education doesn't seem to help change behavior patterns IME. The whole truth is, IF the average person really gave a rat's red rectum, none of these fish would be imported and cyanide collectors wouldn't be supported because if people didn't buy the product, it would not be imported! You can blame anyone in the chain you want too, but the only one who is going to change things is the consumers. If there is demand for a product, someone will supply it. The drug trade has certainly proven this.
 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
If Joe Hobbyist has never heard of MAC for example, what incentive does he have to support their programs, or even make his voice heard in the first place?

I have asked this also and even further what can MAC actually do to enforce. The answer was that all the importers will be forced by fear of someone else looking better by having a certifaction that they do not, although history has shown that if the trade is driven by price this will have little effect. Our hobby is driven by price as evident by the hundreds of posts by people trying to find the cheapest price.

I hope there is some effect from MAC but I would not hold my breath and I would also be looking to find alternatives such as the industry or other groups starting the drafting of legislation, before it is done for them.

As I said before I think the USL is a good thing how it is implemented will determine its usefullness.

[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: Fishaholic ]</p>
 

SPC

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Very nice post Dave
icon_smile.gif
.

Jeremy, I was speaking with my LFS owner just yesterday about the same point you brought up. He said that if he had three tanks with different quarentine times on each one, that the cheapest fish would still sell before the others. People were not concerned enough to pay the extra money it takes to quarentine animals.
Steve
 

Mouse

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
"....and if we catch any one harming it{the reef} we Natives are going to eat you!

Where do i sign up for the tribe?

If i was going to join an organiseation to help protect both reef and hobby, what would that be?

I love the idea of the Diving Card style reefer permits. I think it's something that should have been done ages ago. You need a licence to keep a dangerous animal, so why not have one for endangered animals.
 

ReefMon

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The only way I ever see any real improvements in the collection end is through education. Only once the locals know the value of their resources, it fragility, and how their lives are connected to it, will we ever hope to see improvements. Their ancestors used to worship the earth for providing them with a means to survive, now they assume it theirs to take and it will never go away.

The true responsible parties are the local and international governments and it's their responsibility to educate them, teach them how to live with the land & seas, instead of plundering it.

The aquarist and the aquarium industry is to blame, but so is local construction, the need for food, the mining industry… Their assumption is that the seas are a inexhaustible resource, there to serve them. And because of the total poverty they are living in they see or know of no other option.

With all the money the international communities hand out to these nations, educating them about their own back yards should be the number one priority. The aquarium industries should be putting their lobbying efforts on this, because we see it, we know how much irreparable damage is being done, and we are scared of what we are seeing.

Thanks for letting me get that off my chest....

Glenn R
 
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Anonymous

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
The only way I ever see any real improvements in the collection end is through education.

Change will happen when the end consumer refuses to pay for dead products. That's when the butterfly fish loses it's value.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
The true responsible parties are the local and international governments and it's their responsibility to educate them

The true responsible paerties are the people who are buying the products. We give them value and we can control that value.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
The aquarist and the aquarium industry is to blame

The consumer is to blame for making uneducated purchases.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
The aquarium industries should be putting their lobbying efforts on this, because we see it, we know how much irreparable damage is being done, and we are scared of what we are seeing.

Amen.
 

Bill2

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Chucker:
<strong>
When will things change?
This is anyone's guess. The real key is stated above- demonstrate the need for change at a grassroots level. Take the initiative before government steps in. Many people have compared the marine aquarium industry to SCUBA diving. While I don't ever see the day that one will have to flash a membership card to be able to purchase livestock, I do see a great potential for a self-regulating industry. SCUBA divers as a whole have become self-policing, and the marine aquarium industry can do the same if the long-term benefits are presented to the hobby at large.</strong><hr></blockquote>

But the changes and the now very positive view of the diving world were due to certification. Granted any level above openwater is pretty much useless but people still continue to pay their $150 to become a more advanced diver. Why coudn't the marine aquarium trade do that? It would take a huge amount of work and a big pain in the ass and would probably scare off 80% of the people that set up a tank. BUT, it's those idiots that don't give a rat's behind on where a fish comes from, how long it lives and how to keep it. It might time to seperate the wheat from the chaff and find out what people are truly interested in keep these animals for real or just want a preatty moving picture frame. HMM did i just spawn a new topic......
icon_smile.gif
 

Chucker

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bill2:
<strong>
Why coudn't the marine aquarium trade do that? It would take a huge amount of work and a big pain in the ass and would probably scare off 80% of the people that set up a tank. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually Bill, nothing is really being done because there is no incentive to do so, pure and simple.
 
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Anonymous

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does anyone remember the series of editorials don dewey(fama mag.) wrote in the early 80's about immoral(read cyanide) collection practices and attempts to publish the lists for the public,with the results he achieved?.education of the consumer is not really gonna work(personal experience),for the majority are driven by one factor, which is price of purchase, not final cost.your typical hobbyist doesn't even stay in the hobby that long-mainly because they don't realize that this is a venture that does require an education(by the self w/help), or it's not enough of a priority.also- yeah, it would be phenominal if a group would be able to set up a 'morality driven' import/export/collection in places like the phillipines, that could compete at a reasonable level(pricewise) but no one has seemed williing or able, yet.
the best answer seems to be driving the artificial propagation industry up to the level where there is no longer a need for those unscrupulous enough to trash a planet for the instant gratifiication needs of some yahoos,and possibly lobbying for for sensible legislation re: requiring all retail pet/fish stores to employ only those who pass some sort of certification (from the groups like MAC) and to get funding from gov't environmental agencies for the venture cap needed to start large scale propagation facilities.(what a political coup it would be for an org. like the epa to be able to claim it helped saved the reefs-eh?)
who's got the drive and ability to commit to this long term, full time proposition(don't forget about politics, for you'll also have to deal with foriegn governments, who won't want to listen, anyway-like the phillipines, et al).
chucker- it's an old cliche', but the squeaky wheel gets the oil.(remember how florida rock was dealt with- when those who really knew what the correct info was were not the ones who shaped the results- even after they wrote about it to the hobbyist publications?)
 

Mad Tart

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Ok I have 1 tank and it's freshwater. That doesnt give me a whole lot of room to talk here. I have spent the last 4 days on the net reading non-stop about marine tanks. I'm personally interested in setting up a seahorse/pipefish tank and propogating the heck outta it.
I believe that everyone here has their hearts in the right place. I also understand the difficulty of really making a difference in such a commercial enviroment.
Everyone here is unique in the fact that they care about something to the point that they are willing to reach out of their little lives and try to affect change! This is unique!! Most people on this planet are too shortsighted to care.
Everyone is to blame. Collectors to Consumers. Humans are Greedy and Easily Swayed.

I am a licensed diver and from what I have seen and read so far, I totally agree that these organizations trying to save our precious resources should impose a license. One that you cannot obtain simply by paying a fee but by put in hours learning about what you are REALLY doing. I would feel nothing but utter guilt if I went out and purchased an exotic species only to kill it but not everyone else would so the best we can do is to overdose them with the seriousness of what they are doing and the maintinence it takes to do so safely.

Frome what I have seen a majority of the damage is from uneducated short term hobbists..so.. this would be a huge step in preventing that.

Sorry for the long winded :-}

Mad Tart
 
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Anonymous

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mad tart hi!
the same thing is happening with many fresh water species as well.the blue eyed pleco, for example- and what about all the species that can only be obtained from wild collection, for example-the mormyrid species (elephant noses. etc.).in new jersey, every one who wants to purchase a reptile, and many amphibians, has to apply for and purchase a 'permit'. it's more of a formality to just add revenue to the state, but the idea has some potential(like a dog license).maybe if people were required to buy a fish license(not just for halibut named 'eric' :D ), less people would trash livestock so nonchalantly (the added investment might deter impulse hobbyists, maybe?...)the collectors, importers and wholesalers in all the 'exotic' animal areas really do need much tougher controls to protect the species, those that should be a sustainable resource for our enjoyment, and those who should be left in the wild.(look at the bird smuggling tragedies, for example). the point is, that if the end users don't take initiative in trying to regulate the industry that exists BECAUSE we, essentially, fund it, then the gov't. will- and maybe in a way that hurts us more than we like, or is necessary..... :(
 

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