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Any suggestions as to how to go about that??
Is MAC worthy?
- Thread starter Kalkbreath
- Start date
Any suggestions as to how to go about that??
Without using tags like USL, is not the result the same or has the same effect.
If the DOA rule is on a species basis than the intent must be to discourage the catchment, shipment wholesale and retail of fish and coral which are difficult to ship, house and keep.
The rest can easily meet a more relaxed DPA goal like 2-3%.
Am I right?
If the DOA rule is on a species basis than the intent must be to discourage the catchment, shipment wholesale and retail of fish and coral which are difficult to ship, house and keep.
The rest can easily meet a more relaxed DPA goal like 2-3%.
Am I right?
No. Even the most suited for captivity species are no match for shipping problems and the retailer shouldn't be punished for it. Basically what this would do is severly limit our ability to ship fish. People in California might be able to get them but the farther out you get.......
naesco,,
I am sorry-did not mean to "flame" anyone.
Let me see if I can help you understand better.
There are many, many problems in being a retailer/wholesaler in this business. If we STOPPED importing ALL fish- we could correct most of them !!
Do not think you hobbyists would like that though.
Many of us ethical dealers would love to stop stocking all fish completely.
I have found good, ethical wholesalers that I trust over the long term (9 years ) and think I have a good rapport with them.
Very important !!
Do not stock not hardy fish such as the USL and more-
Very important !!
Cut my shipping losses by 50% by using door to door service like UPS and Fedex instead of the airport personel and their "bumping".
Very important !!
Have many systems for the fish, instead of one or two- cuts disease problems--
Very important !!
Have NO employees so I can control the quality of care and service.
(which leads to 16 hours a day/7 days a week work for myself)
Joined the ONLY organization for the Dealers (AMDA) at its inception and even was a directer for a short period- (until their focus changed and politics was more important than the origonal concept and then I quit)
But- none of this would give me the 1 % that MAC demands !!
That one loss of fish through shipping problems would stop me from being certified by MAC.
This was NOT the first time that had happened nor will it be the last either.
As Mary said- even she could not get that 1%, never mind us "inland people" with all our connecting flights.
We simply can not go get that fish ourselves and follow it completely through all the links in the chain.
You must look at the big picture and not just one aspect of it.
The good wholesalers are NOT to blame- I do not think I am to blame either.
Also- if the hobbyists would stop buying those PB's and MI's- the unethical dealers/wholesalers etc would stop bringing them in !!!!
I do not stock them and my customers do not buy them- but I can not control the world !!!
I am sorry-did not mean to "flame" anyone.
Let me see if I can help you understand better.
There are many, many problems in being a retailer/wholesaler in this business. If we STOPPED importing ALL fish- we could correct most of them !!
Do not think you hobbyists would like that though.
Many of us ethical dealers would love to stop stocking all fish completely.
I have found good, ethical wholesalers that I trust over the long term (9 years ) and think I have a good rapport with them.
Very important !!
Do not stock not hardy fish such as the USL and more-
Very important !!
Cut my shipping losses by 50% by using door to door service like UPS and Fedex instead of the airport personel and their "bumping".
Very important !!
Have many systems for the fish, instead of one or two- cuts disease problems--
Very important !!
Have NO employees so I can control the quality of care and service.
(which leads to 16 hours a day/7 days a week work for myself)
Joined the ONLY organization for the Dealers (AMDA) at its inception and even was a directer for a short period- (until their focus changed and politics was more important than the origonal concept and then I quit)
But- none of this would give me the 1 % that MAC demands !!
That one loss of fish through shipping problems would stop me from being certified by MAC.
This was NOT the first time that had happened nor will it be the last either.
As Mary said- even she could not get that 1%, never mind us "inland people" with all our connecting flights.
We simply can not go get that fish ourselves and follow it completely through all the links in the chain.
You must look at the big picture and not just one aspect of it.
The good wholesalers are NOT to blame- I do not think I am to blame either.
Also- if the hobbyists would stop buying those PB's and MI's- the unethical dealers/wholesalers etc would stop bringing them in !!!!
I do not stock them and my customers do not buy them- but I can not control the world !!!
Rover asked how to figure out which fish are cyanide caught. As a general rule of thumb, angelfish, triggers, and tangs are the most heavily targeted species for cyanide use. Steer clear from the ones that come from the Philippines and Indonesia.
Concerning the doa thing again- where do you think the majority of the DOA's occur?? At the wholesale facility? Not really. Most occur in the country of origin and then at the hobbyist level. I could probably import 20 powder blues and lose only one or two before I sold them all. That's probably about the same rate as for most fish. So you see, a powder blue tang or a moorish idol that is held for a day in a wholesalers tang is not likely to die there- it's more likely that it will slowly die over a few weeks and by that time it's in the hobbyists tank. The problem is NOT simple, people. It's complicated. There is no "easy" fix no matter how much we would like there to be. If the problems at the point of origin were corrected, it would go a long way to solving many of the problems. But again, that takes time and money.
Concerning the doa thing again- where do you think the majority of the DOA's occur?? At the wholesale facility? Not really. Most occur in the country of origin and then at the hobbyist level. I could probably import 20 powder blues and lose only one or two before I sold them all. That's probably about the same rate as for most fish. So you see, a powder blue tang or a moorish idol that is held for a day in a wholesalers tang is not likely to die there- it's more likely that it will slowly die over a few weeks and by that time it's in the hobbyists tank. The problem is NOT simple, people. It's complicated. There is no "easy" fix no matter how much we would like there to be. If the problems at the point of origin were corrected, it would go a long way to solving many of the problems. But again, that takes time and money.
I agree that a lot can be done in the collecting side, but we must do something on this side of the pond. The government and others are looking at our hobby and what we are doing about it.
So what can we do? There is a simple solution to every complex problem.
The problem is what I see and what the public sees in almost every LFS. Tank after tank of dying or USL type fish.
Many of us hobbyist and industry spend hours on this board helping newbies and others with their problems. Sometimes it is tough because it is so repetitive but you know you are helping someone on the other end.
I have to say that that there is one heck of a lot more knowledge on keeping species of tangs than there was a couple of years ago. I really believe they listen and at the minimum do not repeat their mistakes.
Yet I had the occasion to check out the sponsors of this and other boards and was shocked that notwithstanding the commentary by reefers and moderators, that almost all of them sell species off the USL and blatantly; often on sale.
How can this be? How can we allow this to continue?
So what can we do? There is a simple solution to every complex problem.
The problem is what I see and what the public sees in almost every LFS. Tank after tank of dying or USL type fish.
Many of us hobbyist and industry spend hours on this board helping newbies and others with their problems. Sometimes it is tough because it is so repetitive but you know you are helping someone on the other end.
I have to say that that there is one heck of a lot more knowledge on keeping species of tangs than there was a couple of years ago. I really believe they listen and at the minimum do not repeat their mistakes.
Yet I had the occasion to check out the sponsors of this and other boards and was shocked that notwithstanding the commentary by reefers and moderators, that almost all of them sell species off the USL and blatantly; often on sale.
How can this be? How can we allow this to continue?
Steve,,
In the 9 years I have been in business, with fish orders coming in every two weeks on average, there has NEVER been one single shipment that I have not had to worry about coming in alive and in the proper amount of shipping time !!!
Will the airlines bump them ?
Will the airlines lose the shipment??
Will the boxes be smashed??
Will they come in too cold or too hot??
How many DOA's will be in the boxes??
Will the fish know how to eat??
Will the fish be healthy??
And then there is the fish that will die for no apparent reason after being in the shop for a week,looking and acting completely healthy, all water parameters on target etc.
If I am taking them from the ocean- don't I also have the responsibility of keeping them healthy and alive??
I absolutely hate seeing any animal die and if I am in this business, I can not keep all of them alive !!
Big guilt trip !!
In the 9 years I have been in business, with fish orders coming in every two weeks on average, there has NEVER been one single shipment that I have not had to worry about coming in alive and in the proper amount of shipping time !!!
Will the airlines bump them ?
Will the airlines lose the shipment??
Will the boxes be smashed??
Will they come in too cold or too hot??
How many DOA's will be in the boxes??
Will the fish know how to eat??
Will the fish be healthy??
And then there is the fish that will die for no apparent reason after being in the shop for a week,looking and acting completely healthy, all water parameters on target etc.
If I am taking them from the ocean- don't I also have the responsibility of keeping them healthy and alive??
I absolutely hate seeing any animal die and if I am in this business, I can not keep all of them alive !!
Big guilt trip !!
Yes Judy I agree with you, no way could I be in your business. Even if all of the things you mentioned did not exist, there is still the problem of selling animals to people who have no business keeping them. If that were a small %, heck even 20%, that would be one thing, but 80% or higher is just too many. This hobby has got some real problems to deal with, each day that goes by I find myself leaning more towards governement intervention 
.
Steve
.Steve
Steve,
People are going to eat and they are going to feed their families. When you talk about banning fish you will actually devalue that particular species as an aquarium fish. Does that mean the collectors will leave those fish alone. IMO it does not. Those species that cannot be sold to the OFI will end up on the supper table. I fail to see how this senario contributes to the conservation of the species.
People are going to eat and they are going to feed their families. When you talk about banning fish you will actually devalue that particular species as an aquarium fish. Does that mean the collectors will leave those fish alone. IMO it does not. Those species that cannot be sold to the OFI will end up on the supper table. I fail to see how this senario contributes to the conservation of the species.
Yup.
I also fail to see why we raise a fuss over a few dead tangs while keeping cans of tuna in the pantry, or fish food made out of other "less desirable" but never-the-less dead fish.
From a business perspective I want my customers to be successful, i.e. not selling them unsuitable fish. From a natural resources perspective, I want the reef to remain healthy, i.e. not over-collecting. It's that simple. The moorish idol will either be eaten, (by a family or another fish), provide income for a family(collector, wholesaler, retailer), or provide enjoyment for some one in a tank (although relatively short and somewhat meaningless).
Bottom line is protection of the reef, which must be dealt with at the collection level. If we assume that none of the fish collected will ever make it back to the reef it doesn't matter to the health of the reef if the fish lives one day or ten years.
I also fail to see why we raise a fuss over a few dead tangs while keeping cans of tuna in the pantry, or fish food made out of other "less desirable" but never-the-less dead fish.
From a business perspective I want my customers to be successful, i.e. not selling them unsuitable fish. From a natural resources perspective, I want the reef to remain healthy, i.e. not over-collecting. It's that simple. The moorish idol will either be eaten, (by a family or another fish), provide income for a family(collector, wholesaler, retailer), or provide enjoyment for some one in a tank (although relatively short and somewhat meaningless).
Bottom line is protection of the reef, which must be dealt with at the collection level. If we assume that none of the fish collected will ever make it back to the reef it doesn't matter to the health of the reef if the fish lives one day or ten years.
I expect "flames" for this but-
just a note here--
These are living creatures we are dealing with.
Food fish are killed immediately (humane dying, if there is such a thing )
but as "pets" many have needless suffering before they die.
I do not subscribe to the word "product" when it comes to living animals.
"Product" is dry goods !!
just a note here--
These are living creatures we are dealing with.
Food fish are killed immediately (humane dying, if there is such a thing )
but as "pets" many have needless suffering before they die.
I do not subscribe to the word "product" when it comes to living animals.
"Product" is dry goods !!
Posted by Mitch:
People are going to eat and they are going to feed their families. When you talk about banning fish you will actually devalue that particular species as an aquarium fish. Does that mean the collectors will leave those fish alone. IMO it does not. Those species that cannot be sold to the OFI will end up on the supper table. I fail to see how this senario contributes to the conservation of the species.
-Mitch, what your post is referring to has been dealt with many times on this board. If you had read some of the other threads you will see that my opinion on this matter has always been to place more economic value on the fish at the collection point. I do not subscribe to the notion that all fish should be collected for the aquarium trade (USL list) for the following reason. Importing species that have little chance to live in our aquariums gives those who would wish to ban this hobby more ammunition. Its an image thing Mitch, like it or not we are all a part of a hobby that most people see as unnecessary. Eating fish vs watching them slowly die in an aquarium is viewed by the majority of civilized people as two different matters.
Steve
People are going to eat and they are going to feed their families. When you talk about banning fish you will actually devalue that particular species as an aquarium fish. Does that mean the collectors will leave those fish alone. IMO it does not. Those species that cannot be sold to the OFI will end up on the supper table. I fail to see how this senario contributes to the conservation of the species.
-Mitch, what your post is referring to has been dealt with many times on this board. If you had read some of the other threads you will see that my opinion on this matter has always been to place more economic value on the fish at the collection point. I do not subscribe to the notion that all fish should be collected for the aquarium trade (USL list) for the following reason. Importing species that have little chance to live in our aquariums gives those who would wish to ban this hobby more ammunition. Its an image thing Mitch, like it or not we are all a part of a hobby that most people see as unnecessary. Eating fish vs watching them slowly die in an aquarium is viewed by the majority of civilized people as two different matters.
Steve
Posted by Glenn:
Yup.
I also fail to see why we raise a fuss over a few dead tangs while keeping cans of tuna in the pantry, or fish food made out of other "less desirable" but never-the-less dead fish.
-Please see my above comments to Mitch, eating vs enjoyment.
From a business perspective I want my customers to be successful, i.e. not selling them unsuitable fish.
-Why?
From a natural resources perspective, I want the reef to remain healthy, i.e. not over-collecting. It's that simple. The moorish idol will either be eaten, (by a family or another fish), provide income for a family(collector, wholesaler, retailer), or provide enjoyment for some one in a tank (although relatively short and somewhat meaningless).
-The majority of the people in the US would disagree with this statement, they would have no problem with people eating an MI but would not understand why someone would torture one.
Bottom line is protection of the reef, which must be dealt with at the collection level. If we assume that none of the fish collected will ever make it back to the reef it doesn't matter to the health of the reef if the fish lives one day or ten years.
-Banning fish collection for the aquarium trade is not going to save the reefs, but placing economic value on them might. If this hobby continues to put forth an image of killing animals for their own pleasure, then imports will be banned and economic value lost. We as a hobby need to take responsibility for our image if we wish to make a difference.
Steve
Yup.
I also fail to see why we raise a fuss over a few dead tangs while keeping cans of tuna in the pantry, or fish food made out of other "less desirable" but never-the-less dead fish.
-Please see my above comments to Mitch, eating vs enjoyment.
From a business perspective I want my customers to be successful, i.e. not selling them unsuitable fish.
-Why?
From a natural resources perspective, I want the reef to remain healthy, i.e. not over-collecting. It's that simple. The moorish idol will either be eaten, (by a family or another fish), provide income for a family(collector, wholesaler, retailer), or provide enjoyment for some one in a tank (although relatively short and somewhat meaningless).
-The majority of the people in the US would disagree with this statement, they would have no problem with people eating an MI but would not understand why someone would torture one.
Bottom line is protection of the reef, which must be dealt with at the collection level. If we assume that none of the fish collected will ever make it back to the reef it doesn't matter to the health of the reef if the fish lives one day or ten years.
-Banning fish collection for the aquarium trade is not going to save the reefs, but placing economic value on them might. If this hobby continues to put forth an image of killing animals for their own pleasure, then imports will be banned and economic value lost. We as a hobby need to take responsibility for our image if we wish to make a difference.
Steve
I agree that it is inhumane to keep unsuitable species that will slowly die a tortuous death. It completely defeats the purpose of the hobby and it is completely unneccessary. I also realize that some people will point to those instances where an unsuitable species is kept as a reason to ban the hobby. However, those same people could use any fish as an example based on the treatment of the animal. Is it really humane to capture a fish, keep it in dank miserable conditions while we transport it across the world, ship it three times until it hopefully ends up in a tiny glass box of someone who knows how to take care of it? No matter what species of fish it is leaving it in the ocean is the "most humane" thing to do.
I completely agree with every thing Steve and flame posted. However, when we start talking about legislation in order for it to be effective it must be as black and white as possible. If we allow any feelings into the legislation process the whole industry will suffer. Even those who do it right. They already have their sights on shutting the reptile industry down and a large part of that is captive bred.
I completely agree with every thing Steve and flame posted. However, when we start talking about legislation in order for it to be effective it must be as black and white as possible. If we allow any feelings into the legislation process the whole industry will suffer. Even those who do it right. They already have their sights on shutting the reptile industry down and a large part of that is captive bred.
Steve-Glenn,
Thank you for not flaming and for understanding .
Can we agree that if we could teach the hobbyist to care as much for these saltwater animals as they do for their dogs-cats-etc, it will help the whole industry ??
If we can change their perception of "just a pretty fish"- it would improve the industry image and the reef and the animals welfare.
I do not have a clue how we can change the shippers responsibility though.
Thank you for not flaming and for understanding .
Can we agree that if we could teach the hobbyist to care as much for these saltwater animals as they do for their dogs-cats-etc, it will help the whole industry ??
If we can change their perception of "just a pretty fish"- it would improve the industry image and the reef and the animals welfare.
I do not have a clue how we can change the shippers responsibility though.
Just for the sake of argument, let us assume that developing an USL of difficult fish is the right thing to do. How do we define difficult? Ultimately the list will undoubtly come from data on DOA/DAA. I would be interested in learning what percentage would be allowed before a fish were deemed difficult. What percentage do those of you in favor of the USL have in mind? Is it 1% or is it higher?
Posted by Glenn:
If we allow any feelings into the legislation process the whole industry will suffer. Even those who do it right. They already have their sights on shutting the reptile industry down and a large part of that is captive bred.
-I agree Glenn, the government remark I made earlier was out of frustration for what I see as a threatened hobby that is not making much effort to save itself IMO.
Steve
If we allow any feelings into the legislation process the whole industry will suffer. Even those who do it right. They already have their sights on shutting the reptile industry down and a large part of that is captive bred.
-I agree Glenn, the government remark I made earlier was out of frustration for what I see as a threatened hobby that is not making much effort to save itself IMO.
Steve
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