MACS ON TRAC

[naesco]

MAC is on track. I really believe it. I have had a chance to talk with two `directors` and spent the Christmas Season eh (Holidays for you all) reading and re-reading all of your posts and all of the material on the internet on MAC.
I talked recently with Paul and there is no doubt in my mind that many of the issues,priorities, and concerns raised by many members to this forum and others HAVE BEEN HEARD and ARE being addressed.
I now have a much better understanding of the complexity of the situation, and the problems faced by many wholesalers, PI people, and LFS. Reading what appeared to be legislation-in-waiting has got to gel this situation and force everyone to give MAC a chance.
With a strategy, a plan and a timetable I can see clearly that the goal is faster and easier to reach if we pull together.
A lot of stuff on MAC has been put forward. Now is the time to take a moment and set out some ideas (again).
I am not asking `what is wrong with MAC` I am asking how can you help MAC be successful
I will go first:
I agree that the number one priority which must be address in the cyanide test situation. I think MAC as its first priority should reinstitute a random test on random species coming from PI.
What do you think?

Although you have the right to post whatever you want I would appreciate it if ideas and solutions are put forward here rather than rehashing the past and dealing with personalities.
Thank you for reading this topic

 

[MaryHM]

Wayne,

MAC is not back on track until they stop certifying product without having a cyanide test in place. Period. No one here is going to argue that MAC shouldn't do that. There is nothing physically we can do to make them put a test in place. If they want it, they have the money. All they have to do is make it a priority. They know what needs to be done, they've heard it for years. Now is the time to see what they will do with all of the advice they've already been given- not to keep giving them the same advice.

 

[naesco]

Mary
I believe MAC is now treating cyanide testing as a priority. I do not have any details but I understand that CTD is a priority and will be implemented soon.
This is a positive development which members of this forum and others should be proud of.

Mary I understand your comments. We will have to wait to see. I believe it will now happen.

Thanks
Wayne

 

[Anonymous]

you believe it because they told you so?


riiiiigghht...

cyanide collection has been going on for about 30 yrs.

the first public cry against it in a major hobbyist publication (fama)was about 20 yrs.ago.

everyone involved here is fully aware of everything that cyanide does, from weakening, if not slowly killing, the fish, the coral, and the divers who use it.

anyone who pretends to be concerned about this industry, and certifies operations who also deal with cyanide use is a crock, and a travesty, plain and simple.

but go get your sticker-so you can fool the purchasing hobbyist into thinking they're getting a 'morally superior' product. :roll:

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Wayne.

No one person or organization is perfect! Despite the complexity of the situation in the Philippines, MAC is taking seriously the certification issue. I know that the Cyanide Detection Test is a priority for MAC and they are concentrating efforts on it.

Now is when MAC must be supported as much as possible, in a constructively critical way. Whatever MAC's shortfalls or errors, eco-certification is sorely needed in the Philippines as a conservation tool.

Other important issue that MAC needs to address as a priority is to take a stand to defend fisherfolks in the Philippines. The economic incentive to collectors IS KEY aspect to find the solution to the cyanide problem. MAC must ensure that sustainable collecting methods are worthwhile for the collectors to practice. Improving collectors livelihood is a more realistic means that would allow us to expect that this marginalized sector voluntary undergo restraint to conserve the coral reef ecosystems.

Collectors must be included in the whole process. A representative of fishcollectors or someone talking on behalf of the fish collectors must be part of MAC's BOD. Collectors are the base of the industry. No collectors...no fish..no aquariums...no filters.no lights....no food...no medication....no books... no conferences... no MAC... no hobby.

The industry must realize that Collectors are human beings, they do have a face. The industry must stop ignoring fish collectors, they do have the solution to many of the problems. Just think about it!



Jaime

 

[Anonymous]

No one person or organization is perfect! Despite the complexity of the situation in the Philippines, MAC is taking seriously the certification issue. I know that the Cyanide Detection Test is a priority for MAC and they are concentrating efforts on it.

With all due respect, Jamie, I think that the efforts should be concentrated and followed through to a conclusion *before* certification can begin. If MAC was taking it "seriously" then they would have waited to certify *anything* until the test was in place.

I believe that's the main issue for everyone that has a problem with MAC. Not the fact that there is not yet a cyanide test in place, nor the level of the effort MAC is putting forth in developing one, but the fact that they're going ahead and certifying fish without a test in place.

*That's* the problem here...

Peace,

Chip

 

[Anonymous]

Jaime Baquero wrote:

Collectors are the base of the industry. No collectors...no fish..no aquariums...no filters.no lights....no food...no medication....no books... no conferences... no MAC... no hobby

.

Jaime:

no disrespect inended, but i do have a serious and honest question about what you're saying here.

seems to me that the hobby, as a hobby, will survive solely through captive bred propagation of ornamentals and aquacultured specimens.it may slow down quite abit, initially, but with the recent advance in propagation techniques and knowledge-there are already more than enough species being captively raised to provide a fair diversity, if not amount, at least, for a large percentage of hobbyists to create and enjoy a beatiful marine tank, with absolutely no environmental impact whatsoever.

to say that the hobby will not exist, or is solely dependent on wild source stock, is misleading,if not blatantly false, imho.

given that flame angels are now being spawned/raised in captivity-i would think that within the next 5 yrs.-most fish familiar to the hobbyist trade will be able to be produced in captivity.

most corals are now readily available through frag trading groups,w/the exception of some lps species.

seems to me that all of these arguments are really a cry to protect only the collection/exportation part of the industry,under the guise of 'scaring the hobbyist into thinking that their hobby is solely dependent on wild collection, and will not exist w/out it.


i, for one, can fully stock a 150 gal tank using ONLY captive bred/ aquacultured species of fish, coral, and live rock-some of which i may even obtain free of charge from friends :wink:

the product side of the industry (lights, tanks,skimmers, etc) will certainly continue to be sold.

the collectors are not the base of the industry, imo-the hobbyists are.they are, ultimately, the driving economic force behind the existence of the entire aquatic pet industry.to say that the situation is otherwise is simply not true,for the hobbyist will carry on w/out the collectors, but the collectors cannot carry on w/out the hobbyist :wink:

 

[MaryHM]

Couldn't have said it better myself, marillion.

Jaime, I know that I for one WANT to support MAC. I have never said dismantle it or anything like that. Hopefully the discussions created in this forum have had an impact and MAC has decided to reprioritize and put a CDT at the top of the list. However, if they continue to certify fish without this test in place that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that certification at all costs is a priority over certification done right. MAC has gone down some wrong paths in the past, and I unfortunately following them for a while hoping they would turn. At this point I need to see solid proof that a CDT is a top priority. My days of believing them "just cuz they said so" are soooooooo over. If they do get it back on track, I will again be one of their most outspoken supporters.

 

[MaryHM]

seems to me that the hobby, as a hobby, will survive solely through captive bred propagation of ornamentals and aquacultured specimens.it may slow down quite abit, initially, but with the recent advance in propagation techniques and knowledge-there are already more than enough species being captively raised to provide a fair diversity, if not amount, at least, for a large percentage of hobbyists to create and enjoy a beatiful marine tank, with absolutely no environmental impact whatsoever.

This is a statement I hear from hobbyists quite often. And I think it is completely FALSE. The majority of people in the hobby have fish only tanks. There are not enough fish by any stretch of the imagination to sustain this hobby at ANY level. Just because something has been bred in captivity does not mean it will be available on a commercial level anytime in the near future. Ok, you say, then it will just be us stateside propagating reefers supporting the hobby. Really? There's not enough of that to sustain any retail store in this country. Without the retail stores interested in salt water do you really think all of the dry goods manufacturers are going to continue their marine lines? Of course not! Where are you going to get your salt, etc...?? Maybe you will argue that if there are hobbyists willing to buy it, someone will be willing to manufacture it. Ok, but no manufacturer could generate the serious volume necessary to keep prices down. So all of the prices would increase astronomically on dry goods. That would run out many of the reefers that were left, leaving us with basically no one. And no one new would be entering the hobby because of the huge expense, difficulty in finding animals (remember, the pet shops quit dealing in salt), and if they do find animals there would be hardly any variety. New hobbyists cannot live by soft corals and sps alone! Sorry vitz, but until propagation is able to be done on seriously commercial levels this hobby can not survive a shut down of imports- unless it's a few guy trading frags back and forth on a Saturdy night.

 

[dizzy]

Collectors must be included in the whole process. A representative of fishcollectors or someone talking on behalf of the fish collectors must be part of MAC's BOD. Jaime

Jaime,

I agree with you 100% on that. It seems like a terrible injustice that your group is not represented. As an independent retailer I feel left out too.

Mitch Gibbs

 

[Anonymous]

MaryHM wrote:

Sorry vitz, but until propagation is able to be done on seriously commercial levels this hobby can not survive a shut down of imports- unless it's a few guy trading frags back and forth on a Saturdy night.

Mary-

to an extent i agree w/you-hence my 5 yr supposition :wink:

i would wager that given enough of an economic incentive, however, the captive propagation industry would advance far more quickly than it presently is, too :wink:

my main exception is, again-the contention that the hobbyist serves the industry,and not the other way around.

the industry is responsible TO the hobbyists-and it is the mindset and rhetoric that the other way around is the case that makes my blood boil. :wink:

i do not wish for anyone who is in this industry, and wishes to make a 'clean' living at it, to suffer at the expense of the means of their livelihood.

i simply do not accept the contention that the current organizations involved in this argument, have the long term interests of the hobbyists at heart.given their accomplishments and actions up 'till now.
:wink:
the cyanide argument you present is also not a valid one, to me.

if all collection were to stop,today, and the resources of these organizations were then directed to policing and enforcing the ban on ALL operations using cyanide(including food fishing), while encouraging/directing the establishment of farms and aquaculture operations and proper diver training in PI, etc both for the ornamental and food collection operations,- the importers/wholesalers would suffer-for a few years.then it would all bounce back-with 'clean', nonjuiced, survivable livestock that would truly be a renewable, low environmental impact source of income for all.

to justify cyaniding powder blue tangs to keep this industry going, even temporarily, in order to keep the volume/level of dollars flowing through the chain is an argument i cannot morally accept :wink:

nor is the lack of implementing an immediate cease and desist on cyanide food fish collection

cyanide, and any connection to its use, is evil-pure evil. it is a poison with both immediately observable short term damage to all involved in it's use and support, and with long term impact on the environment that you also rely on for your livelihood.

that is exactly where i think all of these organizations should be directing the sole focus of their energy and funding-or they will accomplish nothing, at least for the next generation of wholesalers/importers.

seems to me the industry has no care for the hobbyists of the next 50 yrs.

why aren't any of these org.s(as far as i can tell) directing funds to farming/aquaculture operations?and self sustaining ones as well, that will not be subject to industry politics for their 'life support'?


and a 'a few guy trading frags back and forth on a Saturdy night.' is not exactly reflective, either of the current state of the captive propagation level of the hobby, or the level/volume of retail industry (products) it can support-certainly not in the long term.


clowns, banggai's,dottybacks,lr farming/seeding, coral fragging are being done by lots of folks today, and i'll wager that the increase in individuals succeding will not be a linear proggression.


there have recently been some huge advances in the technologies of raising marine larval food cultures :wink: presently not on a large scale, but the seed is there.

how many propagation operations do you think would pop up and become economically succesfull if that becomes the only available source.? :wink:


the road the industry is presently on will bring us there, anyway.

i honestly believe that long term-the days of the wild collection of marine ornamentals will naturally go the way of the fw tropical industry, and the fw food fish industry-with a larger and larger percentage of the stock being commercially produced in captivity-it may take awhile-but long term-that's how i read the picture.


people need to focus on the bigger picture, and on the future-not just of the hobbyist, but of their contribution to the slow killing of the reefs worldwide

if necessary-industry be dammed to do it. :wink:

(that's how i feel)

 

[MaryHM]

Vitz, we can go back and forth for the rest of our lives on what would happen if the trade shuts down. But here are the present facts:

1. If the trade shut down now or within the next at least 3 years there is not enough propagation to sustain the hobby at even 10% of its current levels.

2. If the trade shut down now, there are no programs in place that would end cyanide use by the food fish industry. And where do you think all of those collectors would go? It's not to college to get a degree and start a new career in environmental law! It's all well and good for us to sit in our nice homes/offices with our full bellies and talk on our expensive computers about shutting down the trade. In the meantime, there are thousands of families that depend on this trade to eat every day and they will utilize their only resource (the reefs) in anyway possible so they can feed their families. How about we give them a better alternative instead of forcing them to continue destructive practices for another industry?

3. This industry has the potential to actually PROTECT reefs when done in a sustainable manner. I don't see that coming out of the food fish industry anytime this millenium.

 

[Anonymous]

Mary:

i agree wholeheartedly with your #2

i think that mac is not the answer-(my personal opinion.).

i do not think that the 'nature of the beast' known as mac can be a proper vehicle for true reform.

i think they have proven that, to me, at any rate, already.

i personally think a new and completely different organization needs to came about into play, here.

one whos first priority is not certification of any part of the ornamental industry, but rather, one whos first priority is proper net training, and cyanide testing.end of story.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Marillon,

When MAC got to the Philippines there WAS a CDT (Cyanide Detection Test) developed and in use by IMA/BFAR. That CDT has been the base for the certification program. Was the CDT reliable?
I can not answer that. What I know is that MAC has as a priority the development of a CDT. What happened? I can not answer that. MAC is working on the development of the CDT. This is a serious commitment.

The CDT is a big bug in this certification program. It happens during the implementation of any project.

I agree no certification without a CDT...reliable.

All species from Clown Trigger and Emperor Angelfish to Damselfish must be available (collectors to exporters) to be tested for cyanide.

Exporters in the PH. are mixing net caught with cyanide caught fish. Is to this level where cheating is happening.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Vitz,

If you have the opportunity, please get in contact with a marine fish importer in the US, he/she could tell you first hand how he or she could survive by selling only the few species bred in captivity.

One of the major importers in the US was helping someone who was breeding clown fish as crazy. Retailers didn't want to pay the extra dollar for the bred in captivity clown. They do prefer to pay cheap for the wild collected fish. The importer in question had to mix the clowns and sold them to the same price he paid for the wild ones.

Marine aquarium hobbysts do prefer the nice and colorful fish (Purple Tangs, Clown Trigger, Emperor Angelfish, Achiles Tang..etc No one of them is bred in captivity. Some, probably will be, but no enough to keep the industry.

I have a question for you. Are you willing to pay $ 2 extra dollars in your favorite pet shop for a Coral beauty, knowing that the money would go directly to the collector? This collector is getting for you this nice net caught, properly handled and held fish that will last in your aquarium depending on the husbandry practices you have developed.

jaime

 

[Anonymous]

Vitz,

If you have the opportunity, please get in contact with a marine fish importer in the US, he/she could tell you first hand how he or she could survive by selling only the few species bred in captivity.

if it comes down to the choice of the industry shutting down, as we presently know it, then i say shut 'em down(or it will happen anyway). my first ethical concern is no collection unless it is ethical and proper.

this is a luxury industry, not a necessity-the fact that individuals have chosen to make a living in this industry is just that-a conscious choice to make a living by engaging in commerce in a luxury industry- with that choice comes a responsibility to the morality of that industry

One of the major importers in the US was helping someone who was breeding clown fish as crazy. Retailers didn't want to pay the extra dollar for the bred in captivity clown. They do prefer to pay cheap for the wild collected fish. The importer in question had to mix the clowns and sold them to the same price he paid for the wild ones.

Marine aquarium hobbysts do prefer the nice and colorful fish (Purple Tangs, Clown Trigger, Emperor Angelfish, Achiles Tang..etc No one of them is bred in captivity. Some, probably will be, but no enough to keep the industry.

well, then, that's just too bad, isn't it :wink: - again i keep hearing the rhetoric of the existence of the industry validating, and neccessitating the continued existence of the industry.

do you understand what i mean by that?

I have a question for you. Are you willing to pay $ 2 extra dollars in your favorite pet shop for a Coral beauty, knowing that the money would go directly to the collector? This collector is getting for you this nice net caught, properly handled and held fish that will last in your aquarium depending on the husbandry practices you have developed.

yes, i would-i would also prefer to have another two dollars included in the price to go towards r&d of captive propagation of the species.

an extra few bucks a fish is no valid argument for any marine hobbyist to use against its purchase-the fish are the least expensive component of the hobbyists aquarium setup.

the last time i purchased a skimmer, it went for around $200 retail.why should anyone make a stink about an extra few dollars for a fish?

jaime

jaime-
again, i run into the fundamental difference between an 'industry' member and a 'hobbyist' member.

i will try to explain again :wink:

lets say the auto industry said to you that cleaning the air you breathe by eliminating polluting vehicles was just too costly, or too much of a hassle.

and that putting the auto makers out of business outweighs the importance of clean air, because they would be put out of business.

is that just and proper reason to go on breathing polluted air?

i would tell them to start riding a bike, and take up something else.

this boils down to income, and pockets, nothing more.anyone who insists that there must be a luxury industry of ornamental fishkeeping must own up to the responsibilities to the hobbyists, the animals they are selling, and the environments they are collecting the animals from.

if they don't, well, they could always sell shoes, too, and still make money :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

I don't know if I want this hobby to go the way of freshwater. You think people think the fish are disposable now, just wait until it's just an aquacultured fish from Fla. One of the cool things about this hobby is that fact that many of the animals are wild caught. Now I'm all for the protection of the reef, and certianly don't want the hobby to exist to it's detriment. But I'd rather the entire hobby go down, than for the industry to make it cheaper and easier to kill fish. But it's okay because they are aquacultured, right? No damage to the reef. tangs buy one get one free! Flame angels by the pond-full!!

Do we really want the salt water equivalent of guppy tanks, community tanks where the fish are replaced on a monthly basis, oscar tanks hideously small, where "it's just a fish" is the mantra? All of this is courtesy of aquaculture.

Glenn

 

[Anonymous]

a quote from the media review column of the latest aaolm issue,written by Doug Robbins, PhD.:

Aquaculture in the News

A front-page story in West Hawaii Today on December 16, 2002, "Success at Kona hatchery," announced an important development in the aquaculture of a highly valued aquarium fish, the Flame Angelfish, Centropyge loriculus. Kona Blue Water Farms researchers have achieved the first known rearing of flame angelfish in significant numbers at their hatchery facility at the Natural Energy Laboratory of Hawaii. The research has been supported by a three-year project of the Advanced Technology Program of Hawaii's Department of Commerce, devoted to developing marine fish hatchery methods.

The report states, "Although several others in Hawaii have produced angelfish in the hatchery in ones and twos over the last year, researchers believe this is the first time any angelfish species has been successfully reared in significant numbers.... Kona Blue Water Farms, a division of Black Pearls Inc., said there is great commercial potential for producing flame angelfish - and other high value ornamental species - in the hatchery to supply to the aquarium trade." The report, reflecting the general hostility here to collecting local reef fish for the aquarium trade, goes on to state, "Producing these fish in the hatchery would alleviate the pressure on wild stocks of tropical reef fish, which are targeted by aquarium-fish collectors in Kona. Aquarium-fish collecting has sparked controversy in the last few years, with legislative moves to shut down the entire fishery and a compromise agreement closing off over one third of the coastline to aquarium-fish divers."

(As I've reported, the strategy of creating closed "Fish Replenishment Areas" is proving to be effective, with increased populations of targeted species, primarily Yellow Tangs and other tang species, in the FRA's.)

It is my understanding that there are about 200 young Flame angels in the current group.

The full article can be found at http://www.westhawaiitoday.com/daily/20 ... news2.html

sounds pretty encouraging to me