I just finished reading my copy of MAC News 2nd Quarter 2002. The first implementation of MAC certification has begun in the Philippines. Three exporters, three collectors, and three collection areas are all being considered for MAC certification. I could find a couple of reasons to criticize the release, but instead I will just say I sincerely hope this is the true beginning of some much needed reform in the marine industry. I think you can find the newsletter by going to www.aquariumcouncil.org
Era of MAC certification begins.
- Thread starter dizzy
- Start date
Hey, I notice that the two exporters I deal with in the Philippines are on that list of companies dedicated to MAC certification. I doubt one of them will be able to comply due to their large size, and the other one only has 2000 gallons of holding tanks (although they are the best packers in the business as far as I can tell). Does anyone know who the 3 exporters being considered for certification are?
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Hello folks,
How can we be more concerned with standards than their implementation? Its like regarding a business plan as empiracally verifiable reality. Its a guess, a tentative guide or a hail mary pass.
As the battle plan generally changes when the first shot is fired, real news is what happens after the easy part of writing the plan.
The printed word is the start to be sure and its worth some of the credit due for future success, if there is any... But please do not confuse the years of real field work required in Philippine and Indo villages with the simplicity of writing best case standards based on interviews with non representative spokesman.
The worth of any sincere approach will be measured in its implementation of sustainable results. Teaching ability in remote villages , earning credibility and respect in the eyes of the trainees and follow-up training and evaluation are the only topics I key in on in this topic. The hype, the P.R. and the amplification of small events into grander ones are frankly the skills of loan fraud artists...not professional field people.
The ratio of field people vs. city people in the MAC and IMA enterprises has always concerned me. As a token field trainer in a half dozen organizations over the past 20 years, I am well aware of the other agendas and motivations that so infect the administrative level in these "noble" organizations.
As Dizzy said, lets hold our fire and see. I'll hold my fire but I already know what the result will be.
Mediocre and shallow results exaggerated thru glowing reports may be acceptable to far away city people [ who really want to believe them] but they will not turn convert 1-2,000 thousand cyanide fisherman into gentle netsman who care for and decompress their fish properly.
Its August of 2002...are we are still on this?
How long can this cow be milked w/out yielding milk? Millions gained and dozens trained. Just how low are our standards when regarding this issue of standards??
We can't and should not fib to the doctor. It is not really in our genuine interest to do so. Steve Robinson, Cortez Marine
How can we be more concerned with standards than their implementation? Its like regarding a business plan as empiracally verifiable reality. Its a guess, a tentative guide or a hail mary pass.
As the battle plan generally changes when the first shot is fired, real news is what happens after the easy part of writing the plan.
The printed word is the start to be sure and its worth some of the credit due for future success, if there is any... But please do not confuse the years of real field work required in Philippine and Indo villages with the simplicity of writing best case standards based on interviews with non representative spokesman.
The worth of any sincere approach will be measured in its implementation of sustainable results. Teaching ability in remote villages , earning credibility and respect in the eyes of the trainees and follow-up training and evaluation are the only topics I key in on in this topic. The hype, the P.R. and the amplification of small events into grander ones are frankly the skills of loan fraud artists...not professional field people.
The ratio of field people vs. city people in the MAC and IMA enterprises has always concerned me. As a token field trainer in a half dozen organizations over the past 20 years, I am well aware of the other agendas and motivations that so infect the administrative level in these "noble" organizations.
As Dizzy said, lets hold our fire and see. I'll hold my fire but I already know what the result will be.
Mediocre and shallow results exaggerated thru glowing reports may be acceptable to far away city people [ who really want to believe them] but they will not turn convert 1-2,000 thousand cyanide fisherman into gentle netsman who care for and decompress their fish properly.
Its August of 2002...are we are still on this?
How long can this cow be milked w/out yielding milk? Millions gained and dozens trained. Just how low are our standards when regarding this issue of standards??
We can't and should not fib to the doctor. It is not really in our genuine interest to do so. Steve Robinson, Cortez Marine
Hi Steve, I see you're back from Mexico. I've got a question for you. It's hard to distinguish the blowhards from the people legitimately concerned with doing what's right. How does a small wholesaler like myself encourage a sustainable net-catching program in the Philippines? As I start up again I plan on purchasing fish from Guia and Ramonet. Is there anything else I can do?
Doug
Quality Handcaughts, Vancouver
Doug
Quality Handcaughts, Vancouver
This is what the idustry forum should be about. Discussing ways in which we can help to put an end to destructive fishing practices. Recent accounts from Mary M. and AMDA President Randy Goodlette have suggested that a cyanide test is nearing perfection. Let us all hope it will be accurate and that it will come soon.
Any test is going to require the death of the fish to test tissue samples. I don't know of any retailers that would want to spend money on a test and then randomly kill fish to utilize it. The test should be given to Fish & Wildlife. They are the ones inspecting all shipments entering the US and they are the ones that can enforce existing laws to stop, or at least slow down, the cyanide trade.
MaryHM":ukcilr6h said:
Mary it seems to me like they would want to develop a test that would determine if cyanide were the reason a fish died, instead of killing the fish to determine if cyanide is present. I thought they already had some type of cyanide test for fish that haven't died. I just thought the cyanide left out of dead fish fairly rapidly. Also what was Randy G. talking about?
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Hello again,
Imagine trying to engineer better driver safety without driver training. What if there was no driver training but everyone was ready to go gung ho on breathealyzer tests. Sure w/ need the tests to keep things honest, but why the general conspiracy to avoid the need for simple diver education and training? Serious law enforcement [ punishment ] without training and education [prevention], is just going to prove that this trade is illegal...Oh make no mistake people, the goods are tainted.
Although I wouldn't mind being proven correct, I hope you'll all still stand strong when every shipment from Indonesia and most of them from the Philippines gets confiscated.
My approach [village training first and on a bigger scale has been repudiated by the IMA and the MAC. They are much more concerned with large funding first and whatever programs second. The terrible joke is that most of what they spend is for infrastructure and salaries to look for more money...to improve...infrastructure and salaries.
Proving that you have the answer cost very little. A few well videotaped village trainings with follow up touch-up training can prove that your methods are sound, credible and replicable.. Proving this was done decades ago on a few thousand dollars! [ funded by UNICEF in 1982]It was the shot heard round the world and what 20 years of milking the issue has been based on since!
Withholding the solution to the "tropical fish problem" has been a longrunning affair and needs to stop. MAC and the IMA need to believe that success can sell and that there need not be any exaggeration or fakery. There can be real rapidfire net trainings in village after village and that it can total into the thousands in the first year. Success tends to begat more SUCCESS and money becomes much easier to get when you actually know what you're doing. Converting village collectors properly can add up training after training until such a critical mass of converts is achieved that futher trainings become much easier. In fact, the divers not only will embrace it, it will come to be considered cool to be trained.
This kind of "ignition" was achieved once with 500 divers converted in a span of 3 months and was so successful and coveted that it was stolen and converted into hoopla, funding and cash for the administrators of the program. Fools. They could've gotten more if they would've let the program take off and succeed !
This is not a strange story and telling it should not brand me a pariah...its actually pretty common among many foreign aid programs
If only the quality of leadership were better back then...if only it were better now...alas, it was not to be and is not today.
In any business, marriage or far flung aid program, people make or break the thing. People are what you invest in...not just ideas and dogma...people. If the wrong people control the right thing...it will not stay right! This is not surprising.
It is understandable how years of bad strategy and bad decisions give us todays reality. I sympathize with so many peoples need to believe that MAC and the IMA are doing their best. The tradegy is, that may be true. Maybe they are doing their best and thats why they keep coming up snakeeyes. Squandering the issue and taking years to compile mediocre results in business is called bankrupcy. The professional paper people misrespesenting your concerns will not lose their jobs if/when the trade in wild fish shuts down. They are ...to a, man not in the fish trade! We who are will be left holding the empty bag. I don't know bout you, but after 25 years of collecting, training, handling and packing saltwater fish, I'm probably not much good at anything else!
I thought that I would become a trainer again to help colleagues in the Philippines speed this movement along before the bad news overwhelms the good. But I guess this was not to be. I signed the letter of commitment to the MAC standards, agreed to tone it down and not criticize the process, attended and spoke at the Orlando conference and the importers conference in March.
The USCRTF conference is coming up soon and we will be graded on the past years "accomplishments". Instead of having trained a thousand collectors...other deeds will be offered as appeasement. It will be interesting to see how well these tokens are received.
AMDA should cast a constructive yet critical eye on events to unfold and not allow its support for reform be taken for granted. Reform...yes, extremely slow progress on few fronts...no. Public opinion has a way of accelerating at geometric speed against "newly discovered affronts to the environment " When that happens, we really should have a better defense than what we have today.
Thought I'd make it brief, Sorry,
Steve Robinson
Imagine trying to engineer better driver safety without driver training. What if there was no driver training but everyone was ready to go gung ho on breathealyzer tests. Sure w/ need the tests to keep things honest, but why the general conspiracy to avoid the need for simple diver education and training? Serious law enforcement [ punishment ] without training and education [prevention], is just going to prove that this trade is illegal...Oh make no mistake people, the goods are tainted.
Although I wouldn't mind being proven correct, I hope you'll all still stand strong when every shipment from Indonesia and most of them from the Philippines gets confiscated.
My approach [village training first and on a bigger scale has been repudiated by the IMA and the MAC. They are much more concerned with large funding first and whatever programs second. The terrible joke is that most of what they spend is for infrastructure and salaries to look for more money...to improve...infrastructure and salaries.
Proving that you have the answer cost very little. A few well videotaped village trainings with follow up touch-up training can prove that your methods are sound, credible and replicable.. Proving this was done decades ago on a few thousand dollars! [ funded by UNICEF in 1982]It was the shot heard round the world and what 20 years of milking the issue has been based on since!
Withholding the solution to the "tropical fish problem" has been a longrunning affair and needs to stop. MAC and the IMA need to believe that success can sell and that there need not be any exaggeration or fakery. There can be real rapidfire net trainings in village after village and that it can total into the thousands in the first year. Success tends to begat more SUCCESS and money becomes much easier to get when you actually know what you're doing. Converting village collectors properly can add up training after training until such a critical mass of converts is achieved that futher trainings become much easier. In fact, the divers not only will embrace it, it will come to be considered cool to be trained.
This kind of "ignition" was achieved once with 500 divers converted in a span of 3 months and was so successful and coveted that it was stolen and converted into hoopla, funding and cash for the administrators of the program. Fools. They could've gotten more if they would've let the program take off and succeed !
This is not a strange story and telling it should not brand me a pariah...its actually pretty common among many foreign aid programs
If only the quality of leadership were better back then...if only it were better now...alas, it was not to be and is not today.
In any business, marriage or far flung aid program, people make or break the thing. People are what you invest in...not just ideas and dogma...people. If the wrong people control the right thing...it will not stay right! This is not surprising.
It is understandable how years of bad strategy and bad decisions give us todays reality. I sympathize with so many peoples need to believe that MAC and the IMA are doing their best. The tradegy is, that may be true. Maybe they are doing their best and thats why they keep coming up snakeeyes. Squandering the issue and taking years to compile mediocre results in business is called bankrupcy. The professional paper people misrespesenting your concerns will not lose their jobs if/when the trade in wild fish shuts down. They are ...to a, man not in the fish trade! We who are will be left holding the empty bag. I don't know bout you, but after 25 years of collecting, training, handling and packing saltwater fish, I'm probably not much good at anything else!
I thought that I would become a trainer again to help colleagues in the Philippines speed this movement along before the bad news overwhelms the good. But I guess this was not to be. I signed the letter of commitment to the MAC standards, agreed to tone it down and not criticize the process, attended and spoke at the Orlando conference and the importers conference in March.
The USCRTF conference is coming up soon and we will be graded on the past years "accomplishments". Instead of having trained a thousand collectors...other deeds will be offered as appeasement. It will be interesting to see how well these tokens are received.
AMDA should cast a constructive yet critical eye on events to unfold and not allow its support for reform be taken for granted. Reform...yes, extremely slow progress on few fronts...no. Public opinion has a way of accelerating at geometric speed against "newly discovered affronts to the environment " When that happens, we really should have a better defense than what we have today.
Thought I'd make it brief, Sorry,
Steve Robinson
Dizzy:
Dizzy, if you were a hobbyist I would understand your statement. But you're in the industry!! How ridiculous would it be to call out Fish & Wildlife everytime a fish died to have them test it?? Insanely ridiculous. Cyanide and it's various forms occur in the tissues of fish. As far as I know the only way to test would be to collect a tissue sample, meaning the fish would have to die. This is how the current cyanide test is/was performed in the Philippines. The fish would be taken by Fish & Wildlife live in the bag and then tested at either a remote lab, or if a proper test were created it could be done on the spot. Of course, if your only goal is to determine if the fish died of cyanide, then every retailer could have their own test kit and use it to make decisions about which suppliers they should use. However, if it is your goal to federally prosecute violators of the Lacey Act and stop/slow the cyanide trade (as is my goal), then the fish must be tested upon entry into the US.
As far as what Randy Goodlett has to say, I couldn't comment because I don't know what he has been saying. He says a lot of things, none of which I pay attention to because I have completely removed myself from the disorganization that he is president of.
Dizzy, if you were a hobbyist I would understand your statement. But you're in the industry!! How ridiculous would it be to call out Fish & Wildlife everytime a fish died to have them test it?? Insanely ridiculous. Cyanide and it's various forms occur in the tissues of fish. As far as I know the only way to test would be to collect a tissue sample, meaning the fish would have to die. This is how the current cyanide test is/was performed in the Philippines. The fish would be taken by Fish & Wildlife live in the bag and then tested at either a remote lab, or if a proper test were created it could be done on the spot. Of course, if your only goal is to determine if the fish died of cyanide, then every retailer could have their own test kit and use it to make decisions about which suppliers they should use. However, if it is your goal to federally prosecute violators of the Lacey Act and stop/slow the cyanide trade (as is my goal), then the fish must be tested upon entry into the US.
As far as what Randy Goodlett has to say, I couldn't comment because I don't know what he has been saying. He says a lot of things, none of which I pay attention to because I have completely removed myself from the disorganization that he is president of.
Steve,
What would be your best guess on how many collectors use cyanide and how many are net trained in the Philippines right now? Same question for Indonesia. How many net-trained divers do you think it would take in each country to supply the trade with net-caught fish? How many more net-trained divers do you think there are in the Philippines now than five years ago? How many more net-trained divers do you think there now are in Indo than five years ago? How much do you estimate it would cost to train the needed number of net-trained collectors to supply the trade with drug free fish in both countries combined? Are there any species of fish that probably can't be easily collected with nets? If so what species are those?
What would be your best guess on how many collectors use cyanide and how many are net trained in the Philippines right now? Same question for Indonesia. How many net-trained divers do you think it would take in each country to supply the trade with net-caught fish? How many more net-trained divers do you think there are in the Philippines now than five years ago? How many more net-trained divers do you think there now are in Indo than five years ago? How much do you estimate it would cost to train the needed number of net-trained collectors to supply the trade with drug free fish in both countries combined? Are there any species of fish that probably can't be easily collected with nets? If so what species are those?
Dizzy:
Too much trouble! Do you really think this industry is ever going to police itself?? I've given up believing that. I used to believe the industry could work together for change, I used to believe that MAC would make a difference, and I used to believe in Santa Claus! IMO, the only answer now is for the government to get involved. Why have vets or universities spread out all over the country performing a test when Fish and Wildlife could do it at the point of entry- taking care of ONE shipment of fish before it becomes 100?? The process could be simple and not slow down shipments. Fish & Wildlife is already present at the arrival of each shipment. They have the invoices and know what fish are in which boxes. All they would have to do is say "I want to take the trigger out of box 43, the angel out of box 25, and the tang out of box 64". Open them up, remove the fish, sign off the shipment for release, take the fish to the lab (or if it was a quick test do it on the spot). If findings come back showing the presence of cyanide or it's various components, then the importer could be slapped with a violation of the Lacey Act and have their import license revoked if it ever happened again. This solution is SO much simpler than anything MAC is proposing, and it would eliminate the cheating component that MAC is creating. Simple, straightforward, cut and dry, effective- everything MAC is not.
Too much trouble! Do you really think this industry is ever going to police itself?? I've given up believing that. I used to believe the industry could work together for change, I used to believe that MAC would make a difference, and I used to believe in Santa Claus! IMO, the only answer now is for the government to get involved. Why have vets or universities spread out all over the country performing a test when Fish and Wildlife could do it at the point of entry- taking care of ONE shipment of fish before it becomes 100?? The process could be simple and not slow down shipments. Fish & Wildlife is already present at the arrival of each shipment. They have the invoices and know what fish are in which boxes. All they would have to do is say "I want to take the trigger out of box 43, the angel out of box 25, and the tang out of box 64". Open them up, remove the fish, sign off the shipment for release, take the fish to the lab (or if it was a quick test do it on the spot). If findings come back showing the presence of cyanide or it's various components, then the importer could be slapped with a violation of the Lacey Act and have their import license revoked if it ever happened again. This solution is SO much simpler than anything MAC is proposing, and it would eliminate the cheating component that MAC is creating. Simple, straightforward, cut and dry, effective- everything MAC is not.
Mary did you read that last post I made at the end of "The Structure is there"? The one that was printed in Pet Age that talks about the Invasive Species Advisory Council (ISAC). They are going to start giving fish shipments greater scrutiny for possible invasive species and also for possible biological invasions since 9-11. Give the government all that responsibilty and add checking for cyanide to their headaches and you have an excellent possibility for a bunch of dead fish. The customs guys can't even keep cocaine and heroin out of the country. I wouldn't be surprised if they just said the heck with the fish and that was it. Hope I'm being overly pessimistic. I agree with you 100% that MAC's proposed methods and standards will cause a bunch of cheating.
Here is a quote from the AMDA letter Randy sent to the AMDA members dated 28 August 2002.
"Whether they do or they don't, there is word of researchers working on an accurate test for marine fish collected with cyanide, and we are delighted that it may be just a matter of months before we will have a test that will determine if a fish has been collected with cyanide. Let the seller beware."
Here is a quote from the AMDA letter Randy sent to the AMDA members dated 28 August 2002.
"Whether they do or they don't, there is word of researchers working on an accurate test for marine fish collected with cyanide, and we are delighted that it may be just a matter of months before we will have a test that will determine if a fish has been collected with cyanide. Let the seller beware."
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