IYO WHAT IS THE SECOND PRIORITY ISSUE MAC SHOULD DEAL WITH
- Thread starter naesco
- Start date
naesco,
I think Mac should forget trying to trace every fish throughout the coc and find a way to get the collectors better pay for netcaught fish. I can well image that Ferdy was right when he stated that the poor fisherfolk don't like the ISO paperwork any better than people like I do. MAC needs the cyanide test badly.
I think Mac should forget trying to trace every fish throughout the coc and find a way to get the collectors better pay for netcaught fish. I can well image that Ferdy was right when he stated that the poor fisherfolk don't like the ISO paperwork any better than people like I do. MAC needs the cyanide test badly.
Dizzy how do we accomplish getting more money in the hands of the fisher?
Which fish typically are cyanide caught? Do you think the market can bear a 10% increase on them?
Simply put in your opinion as a LFS would the average reefer pay 10 percent more on these fish? Taking into consideration the savings as a result of overall DOA,and sickness DOA at your store decline that would occur, would you pay ten percent more?
Wholesalers please chime in.
Which fish typically are cyanide caught? Do you think the market can bear a 10% increase on them?
Simply put in your opinion as a LFS would the average reefer pay 10 percent more on these fish? Taking into consideration the savings as a result of overall DOA,and sickness DOA at your store decline that would occur, would you pay ten percent more?
Wholesalers please chime in.
naesco,
If Peter is correct. The savings in fish loses would more than offset the increased costs. I hope they could stay about the same because I don't know what the market can support on the high end. Another solution would be for the exporters or importers to make a bit less. Some of the LA wholesalers are doing $5,000,000-7,000,000 or more a year according to published articles. They have the most fat to trim.
If Peter is correct. The savings in fish loses would more than offset the increased costs. I hope they could stay about the same because I don't know what the market can support on the high end. Another solution would be for the exporters or importers to make a bit less. Some of the LA wholesalers are doing $5,000,000-7,000,000 or more a year according to published articles. They have the most fat to trim.
Can the market handle a 10% increase to the divers?? Are you serious?? Do you know what 10% of .50 is (and they dont even make $.50 on some fish!!)?? It's a nickel!! A rotten nickel!! If the market can't handle a nickel increase then god help us all. The money that is in fish is in FREIGHT. Not payments to the collectors. How do you make sure they're getting it? You deal with an exporter you can trust. And just because an exporter is on a MAC list sure as heck doesn't mean I trust them.
Here's an example of caring enough about the divers to share profits with them.
We are good friends with native collectors in Fiji. When they decided to split off from a well known Fiji distributor, they came to us. We went there, set them up a system, and helped them anyway we could. At that point we were paying them THREE times (as in 300%) what they were getting paid for rock by the other distributor. They were making a little more per lb on the rock than we were and we still made good money off the rock. Now with the huge freight increases we have had out of Fiji in the past several months, we can't pay them what we used to. So now we just split the profits with them 50/50. It's fair to EVERYONE. You won't see me driving around in some big expensive car getting rich off the labor of native people without giving them their fair share. It's THEIR resource and THEIR labor that collects the rock. They deserve to get fair pay for it. Not just a few pennies because a few pennies is worth more in Fiji than in the US. But because it is the right thing to do.
We are good friends with native collectors in Fiji. When they decided to split off from a well known Fiji distributor, they came to us. We went there, set them up a system, and helped them anyway we could. At that point we were paying them THREE times (as in 300%) what they were getting paid for rock by the other distributor. They were making a little more per lb on the rock than we were and we still made good money off the rock. Now with the huge freight increases we have had out of Fiji in the past several months, we can't pay them what we used to. So now we just split the profits with them 50/50. It's fair to EVERYONE. You won't see me driving around in some big expensive car getting rich off the labor of native people without giving them their fair share. It's THEIR resource and THEIR labor that collects the rock. They deserve to get fair pay for it. Not just a few pennies because a few pennies is worth more in Fiji than in the US. But because it is the right thing to do.
Naesco,
The number one priority (ahead of cyanide testing) is for someone to guarantee the net-collectors more money for net-caught fish.
This needs to happen very quickly. Otherwise, there won't be a Philippines MAC Certification program. I am not at liberty to say more now. There are negotiations ongoing; which hopefully will resolve this issue soon.
Peter Rubec
The number one priority (ahead of cyanide testing) is for someone to guarantee the net-collectors more money for net-caught fish.
This needs to happen very quickly. Otherwise, there won't be a Philippines MAC Certification program. I am not at liberty to say more now. There are negotiations ongoing; which hopefully will resolve this issue soon.
Peter Rubec
Reply to Dizzy,
The increase in prices paid to the collectors are more than offset by the reduction in mortality with net-caught fish and the situation with exchange rates between the peso and the US dollar. So, I don't think that there needs to be any significant increases in export prices. This depends to some degree on economies of scale. The present exporters of net-caught fish are relatively small and are faced with higher freight costs than the larger exporters. So, they do presently charge more. As the supply of net-caught fish increases, I expect prices for net-caught fish to be competitive with existing export prices.
Peter Rubec
The increase in prices paid to the collectors are more than offset by the reduction in mortality with net-caught fish and the situation with exchange rates between the peso and the US dollar. So, I don't think that there needs to be any significant increases in export prices. This depends to some degree on economies of scale. The present exporters of net-caught fish are relatively small and are faced with higher freight costs than the larger exporters. So, they do presently charge more. As the supply of net-caught fish increases, I expect prices for net-caught fish to be competitive with existing export prices.
Peter Rubec
Wayne,
You must really be some kind of optimist. I didn't get a sense Peter suggested there any kind of done deal on the table. It sounded more like a warning that something needed to be done. If all this stuff had simple solutions it would have been resolved years ago. Save the smileys for real progress.
You must really be some kind of optimist. I didn't get a sense Peter suggested there any kind of done deal on the table. It sounded more like a warning that something needed to be done. If all this stuff had simple solutions it would have been resolved years ago. Save the smileys for real progress.
A 10% price increase at the collector end should be easily be absorbed without any increase at the wholesale level in North America. Like Mary said, the majority cost of the fish is the freight. With reduced mortality, the savings in freight easily offsets a 10% price increase of fish even at the EXPORTER level.
Example - Box of 150 damsels
Cost per fish - $0.40 -> Total $60
Cost per box - $90
Total Cost - $150
Less mortality @ 5% (8 fish total)
Net cost per fish - $1.06 with 142 to sell
With a 10% Increase and lower mortality
Cost per fish - $0.44 -> Total $66
Box - $90
Total Cost - $156
Less mortality @ 1% (2 fish)
Net cost per fish - $1.05 with 148 to sell.
I know this oversimplifies things but sometimes it is easier to understand the issue. I haven't had to increase the price of my fish, at wholesale, because I am seeing reduced mortality not only on arrival but also during the holding period.
I see a need to definitely put pressure on the PTFEA to pay the collectors for their efforts.
Example - Box of 150 damsels
Cost per fish - $0.40 -> Total $60
Cost per box - $90
Total Cost - $150
Less mortality @ 5% (8 fish total)
Net cost per fish - $1.06 with 142 to sell
With a 10% Increase and lower mortality
Cost per fish - $0.44 -> Total $66
Box - $90
Total Cost - $156
Less mortality @ 1% (2 fish)
Net cost per fish - $1.05 with 148 to sell.
I know this oversimplifies things but sometimes it is easier to understand the issue. I haven't had to increase the price of my fish, at wholesale, because I am seeing reduced mortality not only on arrival but also during the holding period.
I see a need to definitely put pressure on the PTFEA to pay the collectors for their efforts.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
PTFEA AGREE to pay more?
THE ONLY WAY THEY'LL AGREE TO THAT IS if they don't really have to do it.
By and large, these are not very nice people. They lie about cyanide fish and kill coral reefs for a living. They also lie to visitors every time they have one. They are traitors to their own country and have helped greatly to ruin coral reef productivity. This has helped to increase poverty among village people.
They are criminals in my mind and should be delt with as such, especially when they provide or finance the provision of cyanide to divers and at times children.
If they were in our country they would be out of business or in jail. Only MAC has been able to sweet talk em into doing something ie. signing the letter of commitment. They joke about that all the time. They only signed it they say, because they knew it wouldn't amount to much. As usual , they were right.
This thing needs resolution, to be sure but I for one do not believe we have to seek the permission of traitors to do it. It is not only their country. There are millions of innocents that our trade has never considered. Innocents that never killed the coral they fished near. Innocents that also needed to make a living from the sea.
Of course their own government has been remiss in bringing the the cyanide cartel to heel and we speak as if only we can make them obey the law. Why is fishing illegally a choice? Its not in any civilized country and the Philippines has to grow out of the Marcos era of slash and burn, plunder and profit. More for its own sake than that of the tropical fish business.
Then again...I don't think much of these selfish and insensitive people. They threatened to kill me, my girlfriend and my divers last time I was there.
There now....relax...OK?
Perhaps, I've misjudged them. Maybe they've changed, read the bible or something.
Steve
THE ONLY WAY THEY'LL AGREE TO THAT IS if they don't really have to do it.
By and large, these are not very nice people. They lie about cyanide fish and kill coral reefs for a living. They also lie to visitors every time they have one. They are traitors to their own country and have helped greatly to ruin coral reef productivity. This has helped to increase poverty among village people.
They are criminals in my mind and should be delt with as such, especially when they provide or finance the provision of cyanide to divers and at times children.
If they were in our country they would be out of business or in jail. Only MAC has been able to sweet talk em into doing something ie. signing the letter of commitment. They joke about that all the time. They only signed it they say, because they knew it wouldn't amount to much. As usual , they were right.
This thing needs resolution, to be sure but I for one do not believe we have to seek the permission of traitors to do it. It is not only their country. There are millions of innocents that our trade has never considered. Innocents that never killed the coral they fished near. Innocents that also needed to make a living from the sea.
Of course their own government has been remiss in bringing the the cyanide cartel to heel and we speak as if only we can make them obey the law. Why is fishing illegally a choice? Its not in any civilized country and the Philippines has to grow out of the Marcos era of slash and burn, plunder and profit. More for its own sake than that of the tropical fish business.
Then again...I don't think much of these selfish and insensitive people. They threatened to kill me, my girlfriend and my divers last time I was there.
There now....relax...OK?
Perhaps, I've misjudged them. Maybe they've changed, read the bible or something.
Steve
Not that anyone cares.But I agree with Mary AND Steve 100 %! We should not even begin to attempt to change things in PI {impossible} The smaller collectors Tonga , fiji, Palau, Cook Islands ,Ponope, Austrilia, Hawaii...........Are the only places any grass roots reform can happen.. Then PI will be forced to adjust.....But Again Airfreight is the obstical, Even Solomon islands has trouble shipping out on a consistant basis, and must first send its fish to Fiji........{as do most small shippers} This creates problems with having to hold over fish when shipments get bumped... .
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Here's my 2 cents:
I honestly don't know if paying the people collecting the fish more will improve anything. I have spent maybe a combined tine of a couple years on fiji and tahiti (mainly tahiti) and I've come to know the islander mind set. It is definatly not like the western european mindset that we seem to think they have. Most (not all) pacific islanders do what it takes to get by. Remeber most of these collectors can't go down to cicuit city and pick up a hdtv with surround sound. I would venture to guess some don't even make it to the "big" city very often. I visited some places in fiji that don't even have electricty. Lets a collector collects 10 blue damsels a day and 60 for the week. The exporter (or next person in line) pays them $1 a piece. (i know it's not accurate) well the collector get $60 a week for the blue damsels. If they are paid $2 a piece that means the collector can make $120 dollars a week. What is the collector going to do with the extra $60 he now makes? No banks to deposit. No electricity maybe.. no no no no. Got my drift? I think the collector will just work 1/2 the amount of time for the same amount of fish. Basically they'll get paid more to earn the same
I think the 2nd thing mac should tackle is shipping practices. Ever seen a box full of damsels come in? They are packed in tiny bags with teaspoon of water. I know shipping is expensive but won't less DOA's pay for some of the extra shipping costs?
I honestly don't know if paying the people collecting the fish more will improve anything. I have spent maybe a combined tine of a couple years on fiji and tahiti (mainly tahiti) and I've come to know the islander mind set. It is definatly not like the western european mindset that we seem to think they have. Most (not all) pacific islanders do what it takes to get by. Remeber most of these collectors can't go down to cicuit city and pick up a hdtv with surround sound. I would venture to guess some don't even make it to the "big" city very often. I visited some places in fiji that don't even have electricty. Lets a collector collects 10 blue damsels a day and 60 for the week. The exporter (or next person in line) pays them $1 a piece. (i know it's not accurate) well the collector get $60 a week for the blue damsels. If they are paid $2 a piece that means the collector can make $120 dollars a week. What is the collector going to do with the extra $60 he now makes? No banks to deposit. No electricity maybe.. no no no no. Got my drift? I think the collector will just work 1/2 the amount of time for the same amount of fish. Basically they'll get paid more to earn the same
I think the 2nd thing mac should tackle is shipping practices. Ever seen a box full of damsels come in? They are packed in tiny bags with teaspoon of water. I know shipping is expensive but won't less DOA's pay for some of the extra shipping costs?
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Bill,
Theres a world of difference between the two cultural areas. The South Pacific, though often cash poor is rarely protien poor. In the Philippines, people tend to work and scrape harder as there is more of a protien supply problem there. If they make a bit more money, they are extremely responsible with it by and large and the family benefits from it.
They are largely poor by design, as most fisherman are. I'm not afraid of them having more money for their families and their children. In fact, thats the best use of the resource I can imagine.
Want them to be more responsible collectors? We need to try and be more responsible buyers!
Steve
Theres a world of difference between the two cultural areas. The South Pacific, though often cash poor is rarely protien poor. In the Philippines, people tend to work and scrape harder as there is more of a protien supply problem there. If they make a bit more money, they are extremely responsible with it by and large and the family benefits from it.
They are largely poor by design, as most fisherman are. I'm not afraid of them having more money for their families and their children. In fact, thats the best use of the resource I can imagine.
Want them to be more responsible collectors? We need to try and be more responsible buyers!
Steve
Steve,
You are not seeming to get my point. My point is in my observations that they won't have more money for the family. They will have the same amount of money for less work.
Please understand I'm not saying they shouldn't get paid more for what they are doing. I just don't think it will solve anything. I think we'll get the same amount of fish, same variety of fish, etc. They just won't have to bust their hump every day.
Being a responsible buyer means a heck of a lot more than just paying the collectors .05 more per fish.
You are not seeming to get my point. My point is in my observations that they won't have more money for the family. They will have the same amount of money for less work.
Please understand I'm not saying they shouldn't get paid more for what they are doing. I just don't think it will solve anything. I think we'll get the same amount of fish, same variety of fish, etc. They just won't have to bust their hump every day.
Being a responsible buyer means a heck of a lot more than just paying the collectors .05 more per fish.
Bill2":1jmuqbfk said:
Bill,
While I will not argue with your observations about Fiji and Tahiti, I do not think that the same argument can be applied to the Philippines. Putting more money in their hands will not mean that they work less hard- it will mean that they will be able to feed their pig. Maybe get a few more chickens. Even get bread for their children. Or pay for the medicine so they can get rid of the malaria some of them have.
I am writing an article about my experiences with the collectors. It will be submitted shortly, within a week I think.
Regards.
Mike Kirda
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Hello,
Thanks Mike. The Philippines is definitely a different kettle of fish. I'm married to a Tongan Islander so in that area I already have a Phd.
I've never been able to keep a fridge full of food with her relatives around.Why work if we can get it from Steve and Mele?
Theres food everywhere and growing on the side of the road there.
In the Philippines, I met the hardest working people I've ever known and the incentive to earn more would propell them to do even better for the 14 or so hours many of them work...ie. night time spearfishing and day time fish collecting. To be sure there are drunken divers here and there but not the majority I have known. The Philippines has some of the hardest working people in the sea and they do so for a higher purpose than most...to care for their families.
More equitable distribution of income from this trade would give one the right to expect...demand a better product. Thats a better purpose for the money than an already rich exporters new car.
The trade needs defense thru deeds...social justice is a good thing to aim for.
Steve
Thanks Mike. The Philippines is definitely a different kettle of fish. I'm married to a Tongan Islander so in that area I already have a Phd.
I've never been able to keep a fridge full of food with her relatives around.Why work if we can get it from Steve and Mele?
Theres food everywhere and growing on the side of the road there.
In the Philippines, I met the hardest working people I've ever known and the incentive to earn more would propell them to do even better for the 14 or so hours many of them work...ie. night time spearfishing and day time fish collecting. To be sure there are drunken divers here and there but not the majority I have known. The Philippines has some of the hardest working people in the sea and they do so for a higher purpose than most...to care for their families.
More equitable distribution of income from this trade would give one the right to expect...demand a better product. Thats a better purpose for the money than an already rich exporters new car.
The trade needs defense thru deeds...social justice is a good thing to aim for.
Steve
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