You like your big MAC , rare, eh! Certification

[naesco]

Certification is a bunch of procedures, standards, inspections and plandt(asset requirements) which provided the end user with a healthy product.

Beef from Canada that enters the US must meet HACCP (Hazard Analysis Critical Control Path standards from the farmer, slaughterhouse, transporter, Commercial Butcher to you. When you look at your meat do you realize you are part of that path. (You check the colour, quality (fat content), USCertfied A? and price and portion weight.
At each section of the path you will find all of the following.
1. Seals to inspect, break and record
2. The previous HACCP record keeping, signatures and inspections
3. Your own procedures which you complete and inspect and document for the next one down the chain.

So when you get your meat you can eat it rare because it is certified to be Canadian grown beef, properly slaughtered, properly transported properly butchered and inspected all along the way.

If you do not follow the procedures, document them and your product in not accepted you have a major problem on your hands. You have invested a lot of time and money and you lose the certification. If you are a trucking company with a bunch of reefers you are out of business if you are not certified. Ditto for everyone.
Survival is what keeps everyone honest.

 

[naesco]

Certification is different from 'what is wrong with MAC' but there is nothing wrong with certification and there is nothing to be afraid of.

Reefers we have an organization, MAC (and the people can change etc.) and we have a certification process (that can change too including the DOA issue and USL (which is lacking in MAC in my opinion.

We can address the problems as we move forward but let us not stop.

For every problem there is a solution for example:
MAC requires cyanide free fish so when a fisher brings in his catch to the land base he must certify that he did not use cyanide. I am familiar with the Far East and am not naive enough to believe there will not be lies, cheats paybacks and outright fraud.
MAC must educate the fisher of the reason for the anti cyanide requirement and the consequences of certifying a fish as cyanide free when it is not
If he lies, he loses is certification and cannot sell his fish to a MAC supplier. There will be a line up of honest fishers who are willing to take his place IMO. Over time everything will fall into place just like it does in every other certification process eventually.

 

[MaryHM]

Critical flaw in this analogy.

Beef from Canada that enters the US must meet HACCP (Hazard Analysis Critical Control Path standards

Livestock entering the US does not have to meet MAC standards and because MAC is a private agency it is my understanding that the federal government could never force MAC certification as a requirement for importation. There's no "survival keeps you honest" factor at work here, because this industry has been surviving just fine for the past 25 years. The reefs are another story... There is no incentive for someone to become certified. You will pay a higher price for a questionable product that your competition does not have to carry. I've said it once and I'll say it again. To have true industry reform the government needs to develop and implement a stateside cyanide test. Then your beef analogy will be right on track.

 

[MaryHM]

MAC requires cyanide free fish so when a fisher brings in his catch to the land base he must certify that he did not use cyanide.

How can he certify that he didn't use cyanide if there is no test? And if it is proven that he used cyanide, what stops him from just selling his fish to an uncertified supplier?

 

[MaryHM]

We can address the problems as we move forward but let us not stop.

So MAC should go ahead and do all of the certification of exporters, importers, and retailers that they are conducting now even though there is no foundation behind it? We should just assume that

Over time everything will fall into place just like it does in every other certification process eventually.

I prefer to have the major backbone certification (trained divers, cyanide tests, etc...) in place PRIOR to certification.

 

[naesco]

Mary every electrical product that enters the US and Canada must have a UL or CSA sticker (certification by a private body whose certification is accepted by the US government.
In other words if the livestock shipment does not have a MAC sticker it does not get in. It is the the governments interest to do this, costs them nothing and they look green. I guarantee you this will happen in two years.

The first importers, wholesalers and online stores who get certified will reap the benefits of certification. The rest will follow when it is no longer 'fashionable' to be on the outside looking in. MAC needs to as a priority repair the damage they have done particularly in losing the support of the leaders like Scott, Fenner etc. and yourself. When they come on board only the losers will be left and they will be identified as such. (the guys with dead and dying fish and corals in their LFS tanks)
Through this board and others even newbies now are doing the right thing and asking the right questions.
On a recent Canreef.com poll all posters accept one would pay more for cultured fish and coral. Mary you know the business is going in that direction, right.

I agree on the cyanide testing issue. Lets make it the number one priority.
It can be done.

 

[naesco]

MAC requires cyanide free fish so when a fisher brings in his catch to the land base he must certify that he did not use cyanide.

How can he certify that he didn't use cyanide if there is no test? And if it is proven that he used cyanide, what stops him from just selling his fish to an uncertified supplier?

I get your point but do not confuse certification with inspection. Inspection is the means to ensure that the path is being followed and it hovers above the path in an audit role. At first there will be those who will lie and be caught. They can sell to the ever diminishing non MAC dealers until the government MAC certification on entry to the US is adopted. But they will never every sell to MAC again. Ditto for any other cheaters along the path whether they be wholesalers, importers etc. Eventually everyone will be honest.

 

[naesco]

We can address the problems as we move forward but let us not stop.

So MAC should go ahead and do all of the certification of exporters, importers, and retailers that they are conducting now even though there is no foundation behind it? We should just assume that

Over time everything will fall into place just like it does in every other certification process eventually.

I prefer to have the major backbone certification (trained divers, cyanide tests, etc...) in place PRIOR to certification.

"NO FOUNDATIONS BEHIND IT"
I do not understand. I assume that there are standards and procedures in place. Are they not in place?

Training and education of the fishers is key and a test for cyanide is a number one priority but we can find the test and we can improve the training of divers and everyone offshore. This education takes money which an organization like MAC appears to have attracted.

 

[dizzy]

Mary every electrical product that enters the US and Canada must have a UL or CSA sticker (certification by a private body whose certification is accepted by the US government.

naesco,
Your wrong on this in two ways. #1 Lots of non UL electrical products come into the US. #2 The US government has no jurisdiction on products entering Canada.

Mitch

 

[MaryHM]

There are standards in place but they are being blatantly violated on every level with full knowledge of MAC- and certification is moving forward anyway. Do you think it makes sense to certify animals as net caught when there is no cyanide test in place to verify it?? That is what is being done as we speak. Why hasn't MAC spent some of the millions it has "attracted" over the past few years and developed a cyanide test? Shouldn't that have been a priority before certification was allowed to move forward?

 

[naesco]

Dizzy are you sure?
In Canada every electrical product must meet CSA Canada Standards Association. When we shipped electrical products to the US we had to meet UL. CSA had a higher standard which was accepted by UL>

Mary it sounds like MAC is 'bending it own rules' in order to gain quicker acceptance. If this is so, IMO it is the wrong way to go. I would rather see things go slow than go backward. But, is this not something that MAC can rethink?

On a cyanide test. I agree and it should be a number one priority.
I would like to see MAC agree that it is the number one priority.
Training and education of the fishers must also we seriously addressed.

I want to ask him when he will adopt our USL (unsuitable species list) on Sunday.

 

[dizzy]

Dizzy are you sure?
In Canada every electrical product must meet CSA Canada Standards Association. When we shipped electrical products to the US we had to meet UL. CSA had a higher standard which was accepted by UL>
quote]

naesco,

100% I have a bunch of Rio UL and non-UL pumps. I ain't proud of it, it is the truth.

MG

 

[MaryHM]

Mary it sounds like MAC is 'bending it own rules' in order to gain quicker acceptance. If this is so, IMO it is the wrong way to go. I would rather see things go slow than go backward. But, is this not something that MAC can rethink?

Exactly naesco!! I knew we agreed, it just took a minute to get to it! Of course MAC could rethink it. The problem that everyone is up in arms about is that they are refusing to rethink it. They are moving forward and certifying people as we speak- knowing that it is fradulent. That's why I'm so pissed off at them. Know who gave the last pro-MAC presentation on #reefs? It was me. Know who was posting MAC newsletters on their website before MAC had the capability? It was me. Know who went around to hobby clubs talking about the virtues of MAC? It was me. And if they would change the way they are currently operating and start insuring reform instead of short cutting it I would be their most ardent supporter once again. I think lots of people would.

 

[JennM]

On a recent Canreef.com poll all posters accept one would pay more for cultured fish and coral. Mary you know the business is going in that direction, right.

Polls such as that 'preach to the choir'. Do you realize that only a small percentage of hobbyists ever join any sort of club or participate in any sort of forum? With the advent of the Internet, there is more easily accessible information out there (and misinformation too) but the vast MAJORITY of hobbyists go it alone. When I was writing my business plan I found some interesting statistics about hobbyists, and one of which that stands out in my mind is that only 29 % of hobbyists ever join any sort of aquarium society. That's less than 1/3. An online poll of "activist" reefers is hardly an accurate reflection of all hobbyists.

I've got more than twice the number of customers on my email list at the shop, which has been open only 8 months, than the local reef club has on its mailing list, and the club has been around over two years! I promote the club to every one of my customers, and not every club member is a customer of mine...so the ratio of hobbyists to "activists" is very small.

The bottom line is that most hobbyists don't know and don't care. That may not change unless the hobby is threatened, but most won't be aware of that until the local supply dries up. As a retailer I do my best to do the right thing and educate those who will listen, and not sell carelessly to those who don't care. I've "lost sales" as it were, to people who opted not to listen to my recommendations and suggestions, and curiously they usually come back once they realize I might have been right, but of course another Mandarin bought elsewhere is dead, or a large tang that was placed in a small tank, after I mentioned it might not be a good idea, etc. That's another part of the chain of custody that has flaws, the retail end...but that's another post.

As it stands now, IMO, MAC certification won't mean anything but a piece of paper hanging on the wall, more paperwork, and a higher price. To many customers who are only concerned about price, and the educated ones all share a similar dubious opinion about MAC certification anyway, so at the moment I see absolutely no reason to jump on board. If I am the only one in town selling MAC fish, for a higher price, I'll lose most of my business to a less expensive shop selling uncertified fish. I'd be willign to bite the bullet if I thought that the certification meant anything, but so far, it doesn't seem to mean anything.

If the problems could be fixed at the source with collectors and divers, and the standards implemented honestly all along the chain of custody, and some of the logistical issues managed in a manner practical to most wholesalers/retailers I'd possibly reconsider, but after all I've read, I only see MAC as a special interest group out to grab my money and misrepresent a system they really do not fully understand.

JMHO,

Jenn

 

[naesco]

So how do we get them back on track? Steve mentioned in another thread that there was a "broker", Mike King, who was talking to MAC about issues.
Is this overzealous certification one of the issues that MAC is now prepared to reconsider? Or, are they still not listening.

 

[MaryHM]

Mike King is head of another non-profit, CORL. MAC is not reconsidering anything at this point. They still refuse to listen even though their own people are abandoning them. To get them back on track would require a major overhaul, and I do not believe MAC is prepared to embark on such a venture. After all, they've been telling funding agencies about everything they've "accomplished" so they can get more funding. To retract that now makes them look bad. It's much easier for them to continue moving forward with certification against the opinion of basically everyone. After all, once a bunch of people are certified, MAC is planning to become a self-sufficient organization based on fees charged to certfied companies. The quicker certifications are pushed through the quicker MAC is self sufficient and doesn't have to worry about funding drying up. How much do you think an unscrupulous cyanide dealer will pay for a nice little MAC sticker that will legitimize his practices?

 

[Anonymous]

Just curious, but why the need for all these non-profits? Is it not feasible to have one company that sees the fish from satrt to finish? i.e. they have their own divers who collect the fish, transport, fly them over in their own planes, and deliver them in their own vehichles? and does int in order to make a profit? It's in an LFS's best interest to not carry unsuitable fish, or sell fish innapropriate for a customer's tank because their livelihood depends on the success of their customers, why can't it be the same for a large company? Who makes mony off of selling high quality live fish and corals, and not trying to recpoup the cost of the dead ones?

I for one would like to see things change to the point where quality of service and information are the major competitive areas and not "keeping the good wholesalers secret." If I want to buy a fish tank or bag of gravel or can of food pretty much all wholesalers are the same and thusly the prices don't vary much from store to store, but it's your level of knowledge and service that keeps and builds your customer base. I'm tired of having to guess who's good or who's bad and learn by trial and error. Not that a fancy sticker will make that difference, but the information of where the fish came from needs to be shared down the line.

 

[MaryHM]

Rover,

Why all of the non-profits?? Because there are organizations out there that will fund them!! If the US had a cyanide test in place stateside and foreign governments would properly manage their reefs, there would be no need for all of the non-profits. Most of the large wholesalers already have a direct supply line in place where they have divers, collection stations, export facilities, and import facilities. One problem in places like PI and Indo is that collection areas are spread out over hundreds of miles and employing your own divers in every necessary location is impossible. It's much easier in countries such as Fij, Tonga, etc... As far as fly them over in their own planes, you'd need more than a puddle jumper to get cargo from PI to the US!! Mega expensive.

 

[Mike King]

CORL's objectives and Goals are on our web site www.corl.org it’s the last two goals (along with the core reasons for the needed reform) that makes it important to try to help find solutions to MAC's problems.

9) Working with other organizations concerned with the sustainable use of the world’s coral reef resources. 10) Working with other NGO’s and government organizations to pull together and work together to overcome the many problems associated with the world’s coral reefs.

We can only pass along what we hear and our concerns along with the concerns of others in regards to any other organization. We can not make them change their ways. So even though CORL is a conduit we are powerless to do anything more than what’s being done here in this forum.

CORL can help MAC by creating a working partnership to help bring about the training and ecosystem management that’s needed, and have offered this help to MAC. MAC may have their own net trainers and ecosystem management teams but the job ahead is very large and more help is needed to bring about the needed changes in the Philippines.

Please understand that this working relationship is not a sell out of CORL, its goals or objectives. We do not speak for the MAC and MAC does not speak for CORL. What matters for CORL is to make the marine ornamental industry/hobby not only a sustainable use of the world’s coral reef resources, but to bring it beyond that to a use that’s beneficial to both the coral reefs and all those that depend upon them. Both MAC and CORL share many of the same goals as do many other organizations if all were to pull together and do what we say in our mission statements things would get done a lot quicker.
As my Friend and fellow CORL member says
“No net training, no peace”
I add …No future for those who depend upon the coral reefs, no Peace

Mike

 

[MaryHM]

Mike,

And what was MAC's reponse to your offer of help?