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cortez marine":2g78eoks said:Hello Mitch,
I couldn't get the report but if it says that 1,000 clarions were regularly taken out on sport boats and the poulation was off by 95 % I'd like to know who printed that so that I could call em a liar in print.
Sincerely, Steve
Steve,
It just says the boats were taking 1000 each. Maybe they think there were four boats. I would like to know who these people were, and where the fish suppossedly went. I guess they all went to Japan because I don't remember hearing of any wholeaslers trying to peddle them in this country. The story seems like something that would be made up to get people all stirred up and possibly not something that really happened, but I don't know. Perhaps Dr. Wood could reveal her sources on that one. Someone with the ability to collect and sell 4000 illegal Clarions would have to be a big industry player. These are the type of people who should be exposed and run out of the industry. Tell us who they were Dr. Wood so we can at least boycott them.
Mitch Gibbs
SPC......Yes, I agree! Every body of water in the USA is over fished! But rest asured its not the freshwater tropical fish hobby thats to blame .The fish population in the Oceans is over fished as well {But its not the pet trade thats the cause} Fish populations May be down in the Philippines, But fish populations are down EVERYWHERE! But there is no shortage of fish in the Philippines,{ I see the Avail lists each week}{ you want 1000 Banggai Cardnals, Clowns, Firefish,damsels, etc. next week ?no problem!}there are some high dollar fish which were and are not in great number , But keep in mind these fish were hard to find years ago as well{thats what makes them higher in value to begin with} Even if this hobby was the main reason fish numbers are down on there reefs{ which its not}......we are only talking about one country and less then 5% of the total Indo pacific. And Even if this hobby totally removed evrey last fish from this area......it would only amount to a loss of 5% of the worlds reef fish. The reefs of the Philippines are still the most productive in the world, Far more productive then most reefs where No collection has ever taken place. There are many improvments that need to be made, but lets be fair about the current state of affairs, As Steve Cortez has pointed out { boatloads of Clarion Angles}Most ,if not all of the very little " evidence " of over collection seems to be inflated to say the least............?By the way 1000 Clarion angles is worth over one million dollars !!!! Thats per boat load!
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Kalkbreath wrote:
would you rather they were?
first off-that's a debatable assertion :wink:
second-that is no justification or rationalization for collecting even more irresponsibly than we already are :wink:
last i checked-an availability list is NOT an indicator of collections impact on a species-it's just an indication of how many a supplier claims he can take :wink:
right!! let's do it then!! :roll:
give a link that proves this assinine and ridiculous assertion or shut the f*** up-i for one think that to even expose any uneducated reader to this moronic drivel is criminal.
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
But rest asured its not the freshwater tropical fish hobby thats to blame
would you rather they were?
The fish population in the Oceans is over fished as well {But its not the pet trade thats the cause}
first off-that's a debatable assertion :wink:
second-that is no justification or rationalization for collecting even more irresponsibly than we already are :wink:
But there is no shortage of fish in the Philippines,{ I see the Avail lists each week}{ you want 1000 Banggai Cardnals, Clowns, Firefish,damsels, etc. next week ?no problem!}
last i checked-an availability list is NOT an indicator of collections impact on a species-it's just an indication of how many a supplier claims he can take :wink:
And Even if this hobby totally removed evrey last fish from this area......it would only amount to a loss of 5% of the worlds reef fish.
right!! let's do it then!! :roll:
The reefs of the Philippines are still the most productive in the world, Far more productive then most reefs where No collection has ever taken place.
give a link that proves this assinine and ridiculous assertion or shut the f*** up-i for one think that to even expose any uneducated reader to this moronic drivel is criminal.
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
vitz said:Kalkbreath wrote:
give a link that proves this assinine and ridiculous assertion or shut the f*** up-i for one think that to even expose any uneducated reader to this moronic drivel is criminal. end quote}
Thats what I have been saying to the anti hobby groups for years{ though not with your grace!}, yet they still have not shown anything to back up their claims . Even Eric Borneman gave me the Wood report as his great example?......The idea that this hobbys collections have any effects{ except a few small localized decreased fish populations}{ in one country} is silly. The boys fishing for minnows in the creek behind my house, are not why 100 species of American native fish have become extinct since 1900......you are! And the collectors in the Keys are not why ALL fish populations there are down.....so why are you so sure that the pet fish collectors in some country on the other side of the ocean are responsible for those reefs being not at full health? ................................As a great wise man once advised me:..."Give a link that proves this assinine and ridiculous assertion or shut the f*** up-i for one think that to even expose any uneducated reader to this moronic drivel is criminal." end quote
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Repy to Kalkbreath, I finally downloaded the complete report by Elizabeth Woods of the Marine Conservation Society (2001) concerning the Collectioon of Coral Reef Fish for Aquaria: Global Trade, Conservation Issues and Management Strategies. I quickly read it yesterday.
First, I does not support Kalks assertion that present collection levels and methods in the trade are sustainable. However, I would agree that it is a little thin on hard data that "proves" that the aquarium trade is responsible for destroying coral reefs. For example, the report reviews surveys in Hawaii pertaining to the impact of collecting marine aquarium fish. The earlier surveys tended to indicate that net collection techniques had little or no effect on the fish populations. However, the most recent surveys by Brian Tissot and collaborators do indicate very marked reductions in species abundance (as I summarized to some extent on reefs.org several months ago). Links to abstracts of the Tissot studies were provided by Mike King on this list. I downloaded and read this material as well. Anyone wishing the links can contact me at [email protected]. With regard to the Philippines there were underwater surveys of the reefs by Dr. Gomez of the University of the Philippines in 1981 and again in 1990. These do not specifically blame the aquarium trade, but list many of the factors (eg. dynamite, cyanide, siltation, muro-ami, coral harvesting for the curio trade). In many cases, it is difficult to prove that cyanide killed the reefs, because many other activities also occur in the same areas. There is a world-wide network of coral reef scientists coordinated by Dr. Clive Wilkerson (in Townesville, Australia) that has published books summarizing the status of coral reefs worldwide in 1999 and again in 2002. Reefs are in serious jeaprody. Some of the damage is being caused by destructive harvesting methods such as the use of sodium cyanide. To claim otherwise is irresponsible on the part of Kalk and others in the trade. Keep it up, and governments will shut down the aquarium trade. Indonesian reefs are also seriously degraded, and the use of cyanide for capture of aquarium fish and food fish is totally out of control. Jamee Cervino (with other authors including myself) have conducted research on the effects of cyanide on corals. The results were not encouraging. Acroporids exposed to 600 ppm of cyanide ion for 80 seconds were dead in 24 hours and shed zooxanthellae and then their living tissue to leave bare skeletons.
Back to the Woods report. She has a Ph.D. and is a sincere scientist. However, some of the quotes she makes are pure hearsay. I object to her interpretation of my papers concerning cyanide testing. Some of the things she says (using quotes from Sankey in England and Baquero of OVI-not of IMA) are completely wrong. I must caution those reading the Woods report to realize that it is not peer-reviewed (that I know of). While it is a good synthesis of the state of the world trade in marine ornamentals, it suffers from the fact that there are not many good scientific studies of the questions being addressed. Funding is scarce for any kind of research pertaining to the aquarium trade.
The MAC has developed Ecosystem Management (EM) standards that require underwater surveys of the reefs to assess health of the reefs and sustainability of the resource (aquarium fish populations). They intend to adopt the underwater methods used by ReefCheck (based out of Hong Kong). The MAC survey methods are called MACTRAC. This is still in development.
Reefcheck did a survey at Batasan Island in the muncipality of Tubigon. They found that the Batasan reefs were in poor condition and that there was a limited species diversity. They concluded the site could not be sustainably harvested. Despite knowing this, the MAC decided to certify the site and the collectors based on an incomplete Collection Area Management Plan (CAMP). They sited an unspecified Catch Rate method of assessment of the site. More recently, MAC proposed to modify their EM standards (water them down).
My point is that there is widespread damage to Philippine and Indonesian coral reefs. There are very few areas that would meet the MAC MACTRAQ standards of sustainability. Even if the aquarium trade did not cause the damage, there is no good justification for allowing harvesting over degraded coral reefs.
The MAC is not the law in these countries. I can only hope that the governments of these countries will wake up to the fact that destructive fishing and other factors are degrading coastal habitats and depleting their fisheries (of all kinds) to the detriment of their citizens. There needs to be rigorous controls on the fisheries, habitat protection, alternative livelihood programs (like mariculture), and reef restoration programs.
We need to recognize that the MAC does not have unlimited funding for net-training. Neither does the IMA. Net-training by itself is not the answer. In fact, it may aggrevate the problem. There are too many collectors in the Philippines and Indonesia. There is overfishing of all kinds (including the aquarium trade). There is widespread use of cyanide by both the aquarium and food fish trades, that must be stopped at all costs. I am tired of dealing with an intrangient aquarium trade and marine hobbyists that don't know or in most cases don't care. If the truth hurts, too bad.
Peter Rubec
First, I does not support Kalks assertion that present collection levels and methods in the trade are sustainable. However, I would agree that it is a little thin on hard data that "proves" that the aquarium trade is responsible for destroying coral reefs. For example, the report reviews surveys in Hawaii pertaining to the impact of collecting marine aquarium fish. The earlier surveys tended to indicate that net collection techniques had little or no effect on the fish populations. However, the most recent surveys by Brian Tissot and collaborators do indicate very marked reductions in species abundance (as I summarized to some extent on reefs.org several months ago). Links to abstracts of the Tissot studies were provided by Mike King on this list. I downloaded and read this material as well. Anyone wishing the links can contact me at [email protected]. With regard to the Philippines there were underwater surveys of the reefs by Dr. Gomez of the University of the Philippines in 1981 and again in 1990. These do not specifically blame the aquarium trade, but list many of the factors (eg. dynamite, cyanide, siltation, muro-ami, coral harvesting for the curio trade). In many cases, it is difficult to prove that cyanide killed the reefs, because many other activities also occur in the same areas. There is a world-wide network of coral reef scientists coordinated by Dr. Clive Wilkerson (in Townesville, Australia) that has published books summarizing the status of coral reefs worldwide in 1999 and again in 2002. Reefs are in serious jeaprody. Some of the damage is being caused by destructive harvesting methods such as the use of sodium cyanide. To claim otherwise is irresponsible on the part of Kalk and others in the trade. Keep it up, and governments will shut down the aquarium trade. Indonesian reefs are also seriously degraded, and the use of cyanide for capture of aquarium fish and food fish is totally out of control. Jamee Cervino (with other authors including myself) have conducted research on the effects of cyanide on corals. The results were not encouraging. Acroporids exposed to 600 ppm of cyanide ion for 80 seconds were dead in 24 hours and shed zooxanthellae and then their living tissue to leave bare skeletons.
Back to the Woods report. She has a Ph.D. and is a sincere scientist. However, some of the quotes she makes are pure hearsay. I object to her interpretation of my papers concerning cyanide testing. Some of the things she says (using quotes from Sankey in England and Baquero of OVI-not of IMA) are completely wrong. I must caution those reading the Woods report to realize that it is not peer-reviewed (that I know of). While it is a good synthesis of the state of the world trade in marine ornamentals, it suffers from the fact that there are not many good scientific studies of the questions being addressed. Funding is scarce for any kind of research pertaining to the aquarium trade.
The MAC has developed Ecosystem Management (EM) standards that require underwater surveys of the reefs to assess health of the reefs and sustainability of the resource (aquarium fish populations). They intend to adopt the underwater methods used by ReefCheck (based out of Hong Kong). The MAC survey methods are called MACTRAC. This is still in development.
Reefcheck did a survey at Batasan Island in the muncipality of Tubigon. They found that the Batasan reefs were in poor condition and that there was a limited species diversity. They concluded the site could not be sustainably harvested. Despite knowing this, the MAC decided to certify the site and the collectors based on an incomplete Collection Area Management Plan (CAMP). They sited an unspecified Catch Rate method of assessment of the site. More recently, MAC proposed to modify their EM standards (water them down).
My point is that there is widespread damage to Philippine and Indonesian coral reefs. There are very few areas that would meet the MAC MACTRAQ standards of sustainability. Even if the aquarium trade did not cause the damage, there is no good justification for allowing harvesting over degraded coral reefs.
The MAC is not the law in these countries. I can only hope that the governments of these countries will wake up to the fact that destructive fishing and other factors are degrading coastal habitats and depleting their fisheries (of all kinds) to the detriment of their citizens. There needs to be rigorous controls on the fisheries, habitat protection, alternative livelihood programs (like mariculture), and reef restoration programs.
We need to recognize that the MAC does not have unlimited funding for net-training. Neither does the IMA. Net-training by itself is not the answer. In fact, it may aggrevate the problem. There are too many collectors in the Philippines and Indonesia. There is overfishing of all kinds (including the aquarium trade). There is widespread use of cyanide by both the aquarium and food fish trades, that must be stopped at all costs. I am tired of dealing with an intrangient aquarium trade and marine hobbyists that don't know or in most cases don't care. If the truth hurts, too bad.
Peter Rubec
Pretending there is a wide spread problem with the collection of aquarium trade fish will help no reef.{ nor save the hobby} The fact is that only ONE point of origin MAY have a sustainibality issue,{now, twenty years later} The Philippines is only one country, out of thirty or so countries this hobby collects fish...... { Out of hundreds of Pacific Islands Countries and tens of thousands of reefs} To state that this hobby has a collection problem is not unlike , taking the few attacks on tourists in Bali nightclubs and stating that the whole tourism industry has a problem! A few reefs out of thousands of reefs does not make a world wide threat .
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Kalk, Again, you imply there is no threat to coral reefs due to the use of sodium cyanide. There most certainly is in the Philippines, Indonesia, and Vietnam. More than 80% of the supply in terms of numbers and also species diversity comes from these areas. Your argument that the problem is confined to the Philippines is bogus. The fact that there are many other countries where cyanide is not used is correct. If the US government bans imports from the three countries listed, you are not concerned about how this will affect the marine ornamentals trade.
As a fisheries scientist with a Ph. D. (who has done quantitative stock assessments in Canada and Texas) I find your comments are totally offbase. I agree with Bill (last message) that we can not wait for rigorous scientific studies "proof/stock assessments" in these countries before action is taken.
However, I should add that the IMA has been renovating a 120 foot steel hulled ship the RV Alliance that will be capable of undertaking underwater surveys in remote island counties in the S. Pacific and SE Asia. Dr. Terry Donaldson (Senior Reseach Scientist for IMA) situated at the University of Guam is very experienced in underwater survey methods to assess fish species abundance, species diversity etc. He has been publishing his work in scientific journals such as Environmental Biology of Fishes. He heads the IUCN reef fish species specialist group. My point is that you should not assume that IMA and other groups (like ReefCheck) are not doing anything about these matters.
Peter Rubec
As a fisheries scientist with a Ph. D. (who has done quantitative stock assessments in Canada and Texas) I find your comments are totally offbase. I agree with Bill (last message) that we can not wait for rigorous scientific studies "proof/stock assessments" in these countries before action is taken.
However, I should add that the IMA has been renovating a 120 foot steel hulled ship the RV Alliance that will be capable of undertaking underwater surveys in remote island counties in the S. Pacific and SE Asia. Dr. Terry Donaldson (Senior Reseach Scientist for IMA) situated at the University of Guam is very experienced in underwater survey methods to assess fish species abundance, species diversity etc. He has been publishing his work in scientific journals such as Environmental Biology of Fishes. He heads the IUCN reef fish species specialist group. My point is that you should not assume that IMA and other groups (like ReefCheck) are not doing anything about these matters.
Peter Rubec
Hi all,
Almost thirty years and some individuals still thinking that the unsustainable collection of marine ornamentals has no negative effects on fish populations and their habitat. It is amazing but is true. Of course we need to consider the background, degree of knowledge, interest, and stakeholder's position of the individual making such comments
It is true that the aquarium industry has little effect on coral reefs compared to other impacts like sedimentation and dynamiting, but it is responsible for its own impacts on the coral reef habitats that produce the desirable fishes. One is responsible for what one does, even if there are bigger impacters. And cyanide wielding fish collectors zap the specific habitats used by aquarium fishes.
The crux is that the industry has not done its share, please remember the term industry includes every one from collector to aquarium hobbyist. Also to remember that coral reefs are fish farms for the marine ornamentals industry.
Personally, I think MAC is the last chance the industry has. Places such as the Philippines and Indonesia are very complex and their complexity is difficult to explain to an audience interested in quick fixes and short answers. There are other places where MAC's certification program is easier.
We all know, I think, that solution to problems in the Philippines and Indonesia (suppliers of more than 75% of the trade) need more than the net training programs. The economic incentive along with environmental education and management strategies to community level are key components to transforming the marine aquarium trade. I am sure MAC is following this debate and taking notes of real concerns and constructive comments.
As an individual and a member of Ocean Voice International I am willing and committed to help the MAC team to achieve its goals.
If it doesn't work, it would be the time for all involved, to get realistic and admit that industry is never going to pay a fare share of not only an initiative (MAC-IMA-OVI/Haribon) but a long term programme that has immense benefits for the industry, the coral reefs, coastal third world peoples. An action should be taken.
Jaime
Almost thirty years and some individuals still thinking that the unsustainable collection of marine ornamentals has no negative effects on fish populations and their habitat. It is amazing but is true. Of course we need to consider the background, degree of knowledge, interest, and stakeholder's position of the individual making such comments
It is true that the aquarium industry has little effect on coral reefs compared to other impacts like sedimentation and dynamiting, but it is responsible for its own impacts on the coral reef habitats that produce the desirable fishes. One is responsible for what one does, even if there are bigger impacters. And cyanide wielding fish collectors zap the specific habitats used by aquarium fishes.
The crux is that the industry has not done its share, please remember the term industry includes every one from collector to aquarium hobbyist. Also to remember that coral reefs are fish farms for the marine ornamentals industry.
Personally, I think MAC is the last chance the industry has. Places such as the Philippines and Indonesia are very complex and their complexity is difficult to explain to an audience interested in quick fixes and short answers. There are other places where MAC's certification program is easier.
We all know, I think, that solution to problems in the Philippines and Indonesia (suppliers of more than 75% of the trade) need more than the net training programs. The economic incentive along with environmental education and management strategies to community level are key components to transforming the marine aquarium trade. I am sure MAC is following this debate and taking notes of real concerns and constructive comments.
As an individual and a member of Ocean Voice International I am willing and committed to help the MAC team to achieve its goals.
If it doesn't work, it would be the time for all involved, to get realistic and admit that industry is never going to pay a fare share of not only an initiative (MAC-IMA-OVI/Haribon) but a long term programme that has immense benefits for the industry, the coral reefs, coastal third world peoples. An action should be taken.
Jaime
clarionreef
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Hello people,
To be sure the industry is so irresponsible that you cant blast it all day long on the net and it will never even know it...much less feel it.
It really is a borg colony with little pretense of responsibility beyond the financial.
It is like a rattlesnake in a way...not moral yet perhaps not immoral. Maybe its amoral. If its amoral, the relevant governments and reform groups have a job to do.
'Whats that you say?" They've been on it from the beginning?
Then what the hell have they been drawing paychecks for for christ sakes? If you've been paid to do something for a year or a decade...you must have a lot to show for the effort...no?
If you rob a bank that has sleeping guards and open vaults there comes a point that you are not the only one to blame.
If you coach football and don't take the team to the playoffs, after awhile you get canned. In business, you also get canned. In fact everywhere you get canned for your incompetence and lack of performance....except:
A] GOVERNMENT SECTOR, ESPECIALLY IN THE PHILIPPINES AND INDO
B] "Non profit" non government organizations
Perhaps we shouldn't only blame the snakes for being snakes...We should also hold a candle a little closer to the pretenders of representation. Who speaks for, regulates and benefits from the status quo? Who get paid to non comply and non perform?
I can't constructively criticize my industry anymore with out reference to its parasites and ambulance chasers and other beneficiaries of its irresponsible behavior.
Steve
To be sure the industry is so irresponsible that you cant blast it all day long on the net and it will never even know it...much less feel it.
It really is a borg colony with little pretense of responsibility beyond the financial.
It is like a rattlesnake in a way...not moral yet perhaps not immoral. Maybe its amoral. If its amoral, the relevant governments and reform groups have a job to do.
'Whats that you say?" They've been on it from the beginning?
Then what the hell have they been drawing paychecks for for christ sakes? If you've been paid to do something for a year or a decade...you must have a lot to show for the effort...no?
If you rob a bank that has sleeping guards and open vaults there comes a point that you are not the only one to blame.
If you coach football and don't take the team to the playoffs, after awhile you get canned. In business, you also get canned. In fact everywhere you get canned for your incompetence and lack of performance....except:
A] GOVERNMENT SECTOR, ESPECIALLY IN THE PHILIPPINES AND INDO
B] "Non profit" non government organizations
Perhaps we shouldn't only blame the snakes for being snakes...We should also hold a candle a little closer to the pretenders of representation. Who speaks for, regulates and benefits from the status quo? Who get paid to non comply and non perform?
I can't constructively criticize my industry anymore with out reference to its parasites and ambulance chasers and other beneficiaries of its irresponsible behavior.
Steve
Wayne,
First thing, it should be underlined that the Certification Program implemented by MAC in the Philippines is ONLY a pilot project.
The situation in the Philippines and Indo is very complex. MAC has been the only group being successful in gathering the different stakeholders of the marine ornamental industry in the Philippines. Now, what needs to be done is to make sure that stakeholders in the Philippines understand they are running out of time and is the time to act. Participation of the Filipino government in this process is a must.
Stakeholders out of the Philippines and Indonesia, must support and comply with MAC initiatives. This will be the way to demonstrate that the trade of marine ornamentals has potential to become a sustainable activity.
The Marine Aquarium Council has in its hands the basic tools to finish a job started by IMA-OVI/Haribon. Many fish collectors were trained to use nets (1,800 according to Peter), and got good training in environmental education. Considerable efforts were made from Non Governmental Organizations (ONG's) to accomplish this difficul task. Those NGO's (OVI-IMA and Haribon) operated and operate thanks to funds from Canadian, US and other countries government agencies. The industry is the direct beneficiary of the programs developed in the Philippines during the last 15 years. Now is time for the industry to put something back. Seems that MAC has the support of fish exporters in the Philippines, that is a positive step. Let see how concrete is that support.
One of the priorities, for the Philippines and Indonesia, is the development of the cyanide test. Instead of a two-day test requiring samples be brought to the lab, it should be possible to miniaturize the testing equipment to a handle-held, portable meter. This would allow governments to take the test to the fish, instead of the other way around. We therefore suggest that the aquarium industry support, via a levy on its members, development of such a portable cyanide test kit. Every country involved in the trade would then have access to cyanide testing. Only fish that pass cyanide screening would then be certified for export
A deadline should be stablished to evaluate MAC's performance and stakeholders response to tackle the problem in the Philippines and Indo. These two countries are the ones providing with ammunition to radical groups to close down the trade.
All the participants should stop destructive criticism, instead lets promote constructive criticism. Weakening MAC doesn't help. Lets work together.
Jaime
First thing, it should be underlined that the Certification Program implemented by MAC in the Philippines is ONLY a pilot project.
The situation in the Philippines and Indo is very complex. MAC has been the only group being successful in gathering the different stakeholders of the marine ornamental industry in the Philippines. Now, what needs to be done is to make sure that stakeholders in the Philippines understand they are running out of time and is the time to act. Participation of the Filipino government in this process is a must.
Stakeholders out of the Philippines and Indonesia, must support and comply with MAC initiatives. This will be the way to demonstrate that the trade of marine ornamentals has potential to become a sustainable activity.
The Marine Aquarium Council has in its hands the basic tools to finish a job started by IMA-OVI/Haribon. Many fish collectors were trained to use nets (1,800 according to Peter), and got good training in environmental education. Considerable efforts were made from Non Governmental Organizations (ONG's) to accomplish this difficul task. Those NGO's (OVI-IMA and Haribon) operated and operate thanks to funds from Canadian, US and other countries government agencies. The industry is the direct beneficiary of the programs developed in the Philippines during the last 15 years. Now is time for the industry to put something back. Seems that MAC has the support of fish exporters in the Philippines, that is a positive step. Let see how concrete is that support.
One of the priorities, for the Philippines and Indonesia, is the development of the cyanide test. Instead of a two-day test requiring samples be brought to the lab, it should be possible to miniaturize the testing equipment to a handle-held, portable meter. This would allow governments to take the test to the fish, instead of the other way around. We therefore suggest that the aquarium industry support, via a levy on its members, development of such a portable cyanide test kit. Every country involved in the trade would then have access to cyanide testing. Only fish that pass cyanide screening would then be certified for export
A deadline should be stablished to evaluate MAC's performance and stakeholders response to tackle the problem in the Philippines and Indo. These two countries are the ones providing with ammunition to radical groups to close down the trade.
All the participants should stop destructive criticism, instead lets promote constructive criticism. Weakening MAC doesn't help. Lets work together.
Jaime
Again.Please take the time to look at a map of the Indo Pacific region...........then circle the tiny area around Manila in the Philippine Islands.{do it, it helps convey the message}............for the past twenty years , this hobby has collected 80% of its fish from an area in the Philippines thats a few hundred miles square around Manila airport..........The idea that this tiny collection swath is having any effect on the vast 25,000 squar mile Indo Pacific is silly. Yes, cyanide fishing needs to be adressed, but the Philipines are no where near running out of fish or reefs.{ so of course no other islands are either} Most of the damaged reefs in PI have been that way for years. It is you people that are giving the WHOLE hobby and all of the world wide NON cyanide collectors a bad name........ People have been scaring hobbists and would be hobbists for many years with tales of over collection and such.... If it had not been for the many years of lies with reguard to the over collection and how easy it is for collectors to over due it.........Maybe some of the other 10,000 islands in the Indo Pacific would not be so scared to alow collection in their areas........this would spread the collection over thousands of reefs and square miles ...Instead of ONE country and a few reefs...........?
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Wouldnt it be fun if someone could post a map of the Indo Pacific?
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Kalk are you serious?
For everyone else, Manila is the main export hub for the Marine ornamentals coming out of the Philippines. This is part of the Philippine shipping and handling problem. In the Philippines it means a long and difficult trip for the fish from collection site. The fish that are being caught for the MOI are coming from areas like the Sulu sea, Palawan, Mindanao. Collection areas 1000km to 1500km from Manila the export point. Fish can take several days to a week to cover the distance to the exportors Tanks. The Fish are coming from that far away because they are mostly gone from all the reefs and coastal areas near the villages and former collection areas. In those areas that still have a marine ornamental trade the fishermen must harvest far reef areas and at ever increasing depths. Some collectors travel days to get to a reef. I met one fisherman at a village near Cebu city that was returning from Palawan after a 45 day collecting trip!!!
Mike King
I should quote the whole brainless post.....After reading your last post it is totally apparent that you don't know what your talking about!! I will not waste anymore of my time on your insane dribble.Again.Please take the time to look at a map of the Indo Pacific region...........then circle the tiny area around Manila in the Philippine Islands.{do it, it helps convey the message}............for the past twenty years , this hobby has collected 80% of its fish from an area in the Philippines thats a few hundred miles square around Manila airport......
For everyone else, Manila is the main export hub for the Marine ornamentals coming out of the Philippines. This is part of the Philippine shipping and handling problem. In the Philippines it means a long and difficult trip for the fish from collection site. The fish that are being caught for the MOI are coming from areas like the Sulu sea, Palawan, Mindanao. Collection areas 1000km to 1500km from Manila the export point. Fish can take several days to a week to cover the distance to the exportors Tanks. The Fish are coming from that far away because they are mostly gone from all the reefs and coastal areas near the villages and former collection areas. In those areas that still have a marine ornamental trade the fishermen must harvest far reef areas and at ever increasing depths. Some collectors travel days to get to a reef. I met one fisherman at a village near Cebu city that was returning from Palawan after a 45 day collecting trip!!!
Mike King
clarionreef
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Hello,
Confusing the mass of area encompassed by the deep blue sea with nearshore reef areas is misleading. The area of critical habitat where all the tropicals come from is quite small compared to the mass of ocean.
...and even many pelagic fishes depend heavily on forage created by healthy nearshore habitat. In Mexican, subtropical, non coral areas we find that the replacement of fish on a yearly basis in collecting areas matches the untouched areas. You can't tell the difference and thats good news for us who want to fish close to home every single year. In 20 years we still work the same reefs and they always recruit back like mangos on a healthy tree. I think examples like this is what Kalk has the most in mind.
Destruction of critical coral habitat on an regular, intensive level would never work as I found out living in a collecting zone for a few years in the Philippines. Futher away and deeper to come up with the same or near the same fish counts...ever increasing and more dangerous effort to try and maintain fish supplies that were previously easy to achieve. More dead divers and ruined ones from decompression sickness...less food fish for the innocent, legal local fisherman...more poverty.
Outside interests will not shut down this trade...the trade has already shut itself down in collection area after collection area...commercial extinction and people put out of this business is already fact and historical fact thru out the Philippines.
20 years of crime, complicity and phoney reform are the hallmark of this trade there.
Warnings and alarms have gone smugly ignored by an industry hellbent on its own destruction...An industry now tolerating " born again" eco types as spokesman, apologists and players for time..
All we are saying is give failure a chance to continue down the wrong road? Repeating the same ol amatuerish, tried and failed approaches and errors?
Alliegence to error is no virtue, nor was it a year ago, and 5 years ago nor 10 years ago...nor 20.
Enlisting the cyanide cartels to sign on was an indicator of lack of fear [ and respect] on on their part...they make endless jokes today on how "gago" we all are over here who believe in doomed, superficial approaches that bring nothing new but the promise of stickers and certification to hang on the walls. [gago means knaive in Tagalog]
The key players have already resigned from the process and others hang in there for salaries as they look around for the next opportunity.
Patience is the argument of ignorance, innocence and cowardice in the face of calamity and disaster. Forgive me for not being taken in and for being too sincere to sell out for possible self benefits.
What the hell happened in the AMDA elections? We need to get something real started.
Steve
Confusing the mass of area encompassed by the deep blue sea with nearshore reef areas is misleading. The area of critical habitat where all the tropicals come from is quite small compared to the mass of ocean.
...and even many pelagic fishes depend heavily on forage created by healthy nearshore habitat. In Mexican, subtropical, non coral areas we find that the replacement of fish on a yearly basis in collecting areas matches the untouched areas. You can't tell the difference and thats good news for us who want to fish close to home every single year. In 20 years we still work the same reefs and they always recruit back like mangos on a healthy tree. I think examples like this is what Kalk has the most in mind.
Destruction of critical coral habitat on an regular, intensive level would never work as I found out living in a collecting zone for a few years in the Philippines. Futher away and deeper to come up with the same or near the same fish counts...ever increasing and more dangerous effort to try and maintain fish supplies that were previously easy to achieve. More dead divers and ruined ones from decompression sickness...less food fish for the innocent, legal local fisherman...more poverty.
Outside interests will not shut down this trade...the trade has already shut itself down in collection area after collection area...commercial extinction and people put out of this business is already fact and historical fact thru out the Philippines.
20 years of crime, complicity and phoney reform are the hallmark of this trade there.
Warnings and alarms have gone smugly ignored by an industry hellbent on its own destruction...An industry now tolerating " born again" eco types as spokesman, apologists and players for time..
All we are saying is give failure a chance to continue down the wrong road? Repeating the same ol amatuerish, tried and failed approaches and errors?
Alliegence to error is no virtue, nor was it a year ago, and 5 years ago nor 10 years ago...nor 20.
Enlisting the cyanide cartels to sign on was an indicator of lack of fear [ and respect] on on their part...they make endless jokes today on how "gago" we all are over here who believe in doomed, superficial approaches that bring nothing new but the promise of stickers and certification to hang on the walls. [gago means knaive in Tagalog]
The key players have already resigned from the process and others hang in there for salaries as they look around for the next opportunity.
Patience is the argument of ignorance, innocence and cowardice in the face of calamity and disaster. Forgive me for not being taken in and for being too sincere to sell out for possible self benefits.
What the hell happened in the AMDA elections? We need to get something real started.
Steve
Mike King, please post a picture of the Indo Pacific, then mark on this map the areas you describe. {for all the kids at home to sea] These abstact scales and descriptions of destruction sure would benifit with at least a few pictures.{for years I have heard of all the destruction by first hand visitors yet never have i seen image after image of such? {much like bigfoot and that Nessy creature}{actually now that I think of it I have seen a lot more photos of Nessy then the thousands of square miles of dead reefs you speak?} Lastly, have you ever asked a Fla collector ,how far they travel to collect Condies? Ask them how long it would take in a Row boat?
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causes of the great depression
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BMW Z9
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causes of the great depression
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clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Hello again,
There is much reason for hope, but we've got to try and see this industry problem not so much as just a thing to get out of the way so that we can go back to business as usual but as something quite fundamental that needs a serious overhall...
We need to link with the village collector and see thru his eyes what will work. He is not and has not been the problem. We have been. Our approaches and American way of doing things have scarcely affected the city based dealers in Manila, much less those in the field...where all the fish are.
'Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world, indeed, it has hardly ever been anything else."
Margaret Mead
There is so much intelligence in this trade when it comes to nutrition, lighting, water quality, accounting, paperwork, marketing and what not. I just know that it can be gotten right if we applied that same intellectual power on the other side of the ocean where the fish come from.
However...behaving as a chamber of commerce for business alone is going to fail! The missing pieces to the puzzle...[and it has been a puzzle to most} are to be found in the field. Incidental to basic, clear, verifyable successes in the field will come torrents of good news and useful things to build on.
It is an intelligent socialogical approach to a serious socialogical problem in coastal Philippines that will give us a way out. This is not a P.R. problem or an image problem! It is first a serious Philippine problem. Coral reef destruction, CONSEQUENT fish supply depletion and growing poverty are the real issues! Lousy fish supply is an after effect. By attempting a treatment for the after effect we're missing the mark and insuring never ending failure.
Incidental to respect for the village collectors and training programs that reflect that respect will come the results we seek. I am coming to the conclusion that fish people and scientists are becoming less relevant to the search for solutions and that socialogists are more what is called for.
Net training, managment plans and better handling of fishes are all things that can be improved and offered for the benefit of the village people and the results we seek will be INCIDENTAL to that.
Our gains cannot be produced by their exclusion of benefit.
This is an international industry and the richest part of it has failed to exhibit leadership and courage. Indeed, they see what I say vis a vis empowering the collectors as a code word for higher prices...Is it becoming clearer why permanant failure has been the order of the day?
I train divers fior a living and I know what sticks and what doesn't. My paper work and cirriculum has been stolen and xeroxed a hundred times yet none of them ever got it right. Thats cause they never really understood it and always saw value in the paper instead of the implementation.
Failed approaches need to be fired.Thats just good business. Trying to reconcile me to accept predictable failure is a hard sell. In the company of a hundred collectors what I say makes a lot of sense. In the company of a hundred lab scientists or retail merchants, perhaps not. Nonetheless, I can't bring myself to adapt to the days fashion of meekness and compliance and at the same time pretend to care.
Only a "professional Filipino style, commercial collecting technology transfer, bottom up approach" to this will win the day.
The rest is just window dressing.
Steve
There is much reason for hope, but we've got to try and see this industry problem not so much as just a thing to get out of the way so that we can go back to business as usual but as something quite fundamental that needs a serious overhall...
We need to link with the village collector and see thru his eyes what will work. He is not and has not been the problem. We have been. Our approaches and American way of doing things have scarcely affected the city based dealers in Manila, much less those in the field...where all the fish are.
'Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world, indeed, it has hardly ever been anything else."
Margaret Mead
There is so much intelligence in this trade when it comes to nutrition, lighting, water quality, accounting, paperwork, marketing and what not. I just know that it can be gotten right if we applied that same intellectual power on the other side of the ocean where the fish come from.
However...behaving as a chamber of commerce for business alone is going to fail! The missing pieces to the puzzle...[and it has been a puzzle to most} are to be found in the field. Incidental to basic, clear, verifyable successes in the field will come torrents of good news and useful things to build on.
It is an intelligent socialogical approach to a serious socialogical problem in coastal Philippines that will give us a way out. This is not a P.R. problem or an image problem! It is first a serious Philippine problem. Coral reef destruction, CONSEQUENT fish supply depletion and growing poverty are the real issues! Lousy fish supply is an after effect. By attempting a treatment for the after effect we're missing the mark and insuring never ending failure.
Incidental to respect for the village collectors and training programs that reflect that respect will come the results we seek. I am coming to the conclusion that fish people and scientists are becoming less relevant to the search for solutions and that socialogists are more what is called for.
Net training, managment plans and better handling of fishes are all things that can be improved and offered for the benefit of the village people and the results we seek will be INCIDENTAL to that.
Our gains cannot be produced by their exclusion of benefit.
This is an international industry and the richest part of it has failed to exhibit leadership and courage. Indeed, they see what I say vis a vis empowering the collectors as a code word for higher prices...Is it becoming clearer why permanant failure has been the order of the day?
I train divers fior a living and I know what sticks and what doesn't. My paper work and cirriculum has been stolen and xeroxed a hundred times yet none of them ever got it right. Thats cause they never really understood it and always saw value in the paper instead of the implementation.
Failed approaches need to be fired.Thats just good business. Trying to reconcile me to accept predictable failure is a hard sell. In the company of a hundred collectors what I say makes a lot of sense. In the company of a hundred lab scientists or retail merchants, perhaps not. Nonetheless, I can't bring myself to adapt to the days fashion of meekness and compliance and at the same time pretend to care.
Only a "professional Filipino style, commercial collecting technology transfer, bottom up approach" to this will win the day.
The rest is just window dressing.
Steve
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