Suggestion

[MaryHM]

Steve,

I don't have any of the large angels in stock, but have some listed on my master list (Imperators from Tonga/Fiji, your Passers & Cortez). So maybe forest isn't referring to me or is confused about the master list vs. the instock list. But I don't know of any other net caught only online vendor. I am expecting one juvenile imperator tonight from the Solomons!! I'm so excited!! Haven't EVER had a juvenile imperator!! (How many wholesalers can say that and be proud?)


Wayne & James,

We'll see if it's true that hobbyists are more inclined to buy net caught. My gut feeling is yes, but time will tell. I get many emails about "Can you match XYZ's price on Coral Beauty Angels". Uh, no I can't. Mine are net caught from Fiji & Tonga. Theirs are probably cyanide caught. Then I never hear back again...

 

[clarionreef]

Mary,
Goodness me, could it be that a storm is coming? A storm of angry hobbyists demanding net caught or nothing?
Don't we wish!
This prediction deserves the "kum bay yah" award of the week.
My retailers who I rarely, ever discuss this reform stuff with, tell me constantly how cheap the buying public is and that they only give the customers what they want...cheap and cheaper. The 'bargain direct fish in the mail movement' gets hobbyists a lot more excited by a factor of a thousand to one. If its got a "net caught" sticker, fine...if not...fine also.
I wish it would be true but I'll base the chances for reform on something more solid, measureable and possible....
Wether or not Philippine reefs die or the trade becomes totally indefensible should not have to depend on a market, numb and oblivious to the basis of its existance. Responsible hobbyists [ beyond the rhetoric]are numerically few and far between and have to unite and accomplish something to build upon. Is that really happening ?
Check out the general categories and behold the hundreds and hundreds that click onto trivia and compare that to the soul of the trade somewhat represented here that generates so little interest comparatively..
May you guys grow in number and find more of a voice with clout. I for one would love to see it.
Steve

 

[dizzy]

Steve,
I'm afraid your right. One has to look no further than the general reefkeeping forum, to see that far and away more people that use reefs.org, are looking for bargains than netcaught fish. Sometimes it seems like about a third of all the posts there are asking where they can get this or that the cheapest. If this the prevailing attitude amoung the conscientious reefers, we really can't hope for it to be much better amoung the rest of the fishkeeping public.

 

[Forest Reef]

MaryHM - Yes, you're right; I was referring (discreetly) to you. So much for the soft touch. I was trying not to be too pro-one-store on the forum. I note you give preference to LFS that buy from you, and that's fine - though I seriously doubt my LFS is such, I will check (with YOU) first - I don't trust them not to tell me what I want to hear.... I like being able to pick out my fish swimming & eating happily in front of me at the LFS.... Unfortunately...I'm still some time away from setting up the tank. (So, since I can't have my "toy" yet....I'm planning it (in obsessive detail)...including finding source(s) for net caught (really!) fish.) When I do get ready to buy my fish (I have a list), I am willing to wait for them to come in-stock and/or special order FROM A NET-CAUGHT ONLY dealer. And I DO NOT expect net caught fish to be the low price. (Ahem!!) That's fine. Neither should they be 10 or 20x the cost, either. Be reasonable. Any number of these threads discuss the added revenue from lower mortality rates. [I'm not worried about MaryHM's prices - I've looked - but for the rest reading this....]

Steve - no, I DON'T trust any ol' sales page. Friends would tell you I'm a tad paranoid... :wink: FYI - you were/are the potential 2nd source (but I don't know if you sell retail...on-line, since I'm in TN and I don't recall where you are). Oh - once again: I DON'T WANT a "major angel or tang" (tank-to-be only a 4ft long 120g). I want a little angel; MaryHM has them from several places. Accept a little progress if we can't get everything at once. (Coral beauty, if you're wondering....which I was seriously considering crossing off my list 'cause most come from PI.) While I do want to support such ethical exporters as Marivi in the PI, I have very little way to tell whether or not , as you point out, just any claim is true. However. After reading this forum for a few weeks, I think I'd trust you or MaryHM if one of you tell me the fish I want *is* net caught.... :wink:

I'm a firm believer in the Nature Conservancy's slant on conservation....people are only going to conserve that which economically benefits (cynical, but look what's happening to ANWR....). For the reefs to be conserved, those living around the reefs must benefit economically. So - supporting Marivi is good - AMDA and MAC need to work on a way to give me & other hobbyists a "warm fuzzy" when LFS tells us "this fish is from *here* and is definitely *net caught*. (Read: get on with certification BACKED UP by testing, but, yeah, there has to be a supply....And also note that cynical me won't take the LFS' word for it....Lacking meaningful certification, here I am on the Industry board checking up on importers/wholesalers/e-tailers....)

Jamie (a trainer-of-trainers now in the PI? Think that was his name) et al, keep up/improve the training & work with MAC/AMDA/Steve/Mike/whoever to best use the donated nets - I agree with some of threads that these must be "worked into" the local system (maybe not given outright, earned somehow). I wonder how to include the middlemen/women now selling cyanide as a condition to transport the fish from collectors to the exporters....They are part of the chain (if plans are not made to include them - they will fight as losing the cyanide sales will hurt them badly - economics again); we need your (local to PI) work there also. But, I'm digressing from the thread.

Other on-line/LFS salesfolk - I mean it. I (the end of the line consumer) want net caught! I'm even trying to push the supply along 8O (getting into the "net fund"). And I'd really, truly rather buy from a LFS....

Note to PI exporters: Did you catch that I (a typical hobbyist) have/am considering crossing fish completely off my list *because they are known to come mostly from the cyanide-laden PI*??? Marivi and MaryHM are doing y'all a BIG favor putting several fish "...back on the list..." (I don't just mean my little tank)

Mike - ok...I think you & Steve say we've got the current round of "net supply" in order. I'll be keeping tabs if another round comes up (and getting around to MASNA so I have an "in" to the "net fund" on my end for the next time). Does Marivi frequent this board? That's getting a little "upstream" for me - since I have located at least one reliable domestic importer with a retail presence I can get to. But, I'll file the info.

 

[jamesw]

Steve,

I believe you're referring to the "average Joe" who walks in off the street to his LFS - all that matters to that guy is price.

I'm talking about "internet shoppers" like the people who frequent Reefs.org. I'm a practical guy (hey, I'm an engineer, remember) and I'll bet that Mary can do it.

Cheers
James

 

[MaryHM]

James,

You ought to run a completely anonymous poll in the main forum. Ask questions like "Would you buy net caught only if it were available?" "Would you forego owning certain species because they are more likely to be cyanide caught?" etc... It would have to be anonymous or people would lie. Make a big doo-da of telling people to really search themselves and answer honestly. I'd be interested in seeing the results of something like that. I know there are many "hard core" reefers who are environmentally aware. However, I think we're going to have to do some serious educating for the other 80%+. I have a feeling that most aren't even aware of the problem. I'm going to be releasing the "cyanide issue" of reefsource this saturday or sunday. Lots of good information for people there.

 

[Anonymous]

I think a big part of the problem also is changing your stock from a retailer's point of view. Imagine if you were a customer at a restaurant that suddenly went up on all of their prices drastically, while simultaneously reducing their menu almost in half. When asked why, they simply replied, "because we changed suppliers; our new food is better for the environment and you". Meanwhile the food "looked" exactly same, if not a tad smaller. They would lose customers left and right because most people wouldn't be able to perceive the difference in value.

On the other hand, my shop is fairly new and I started out dealing with the right animals and suppliers to begin with and it has been much easier to get over the hump so to speak because that is all I have ever offered.

 

[Anonymous]

dizzy, Mary, James, etal:

maybe this will give some indication as to the mindset of those hobbyists who frequent this bb.

your inputs on this thread would be greatly appreciated




http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=25672

 

[flameangel1]

Vitz,,
I dont mean to be a spoil sport here--but I can tell you that 100% of the new customers who come into my shop have NEVER asked for net caught !!!!
I do tell every single person who comes in about net caught/tank raised/ larval raised and cyanide etc- 99% are loyal customers to me after coming in once, but it seems to be more because I care about the animals and people, than their concern for net caught etc.

And I have the labels above every tank and no one ever looks at them !!!
Did a survey several times about the labels, and still got answers that no one ever reads them!!!
And, all new customers coming in for the last year or more, ARE FROM THE INTERNET !!!

I think your poll will have people saying "yes" they do care--but I doubt they really will back that up in their buying habits.
Go read the "general discussion forum " here and you will really see how the hobbyists feel.
and yes, it is very discouraging to me !!!

 

[Anonymous]

Vitz,,
I dont mean to be a spoil sport here--but I can tell you that 100% of the new customers who come into my shop have NEVER asked for net caught !!!!
I do tell every single person who comes in about net caught/tank raised/ larval raised and cyanide etc- 99% are loyal customers to me after coming in once, but it seems to be more because I care about the animals and people, than their concern for net caught etc.

And I have the labels above every tank and no one ever looks at them !!!
Did a survey several times about the labels, and still got answers that no one ever reads them!!!
And, all new customers coming in for the last year or more, ARE FROM THE INTERNET !!!

I think your poll will have people saying "yes" they do care--but I doubt they really will back that up in their buying habits.
Go read the "general discussion forum " here and you will really see how the hobbyists feel.
and yes, it is very discouraging to me !!!

Judy,

as i understand it, adding an extra nickel or dime per fish to the diver/collector should not even impact upon the final retail cost of the fish, if net caught, due to the offset of the lower mortallity rates, and less expense incurred in the collection itself.

the purpose of the 'petition' is more to put pressure, on the enforcement of the laws on cyanide use, already legislated.

i firmly believe that if a large enough amount of hobbyists just get vocal about their demand for stopping the use of cyanide, this can translate into some 'political' pressure on the phillipine exporters to consider the 'wisdom'(or lack thereof) of their insistance on forcing the divers to use juice, and to undercut the prices of people like marivi.

i really don't think the issue is monetary from the end consumer side of the coin.

even if it is-so what? let the lfs's also join in the 'battle', as they should, and MANDATE and additional $0.10 charge, per fish-to be donated to the diver/collectors, eh? :wink:

if the hobbyists isn't going to chip in-they shouldn't really even be in the hobby-imho.

they share the responsibility, whether they agree or not is a non issue for me-by making the purchase, the implicitly agree that they do :wink:

 

[Forest Reef]

(Hobbyist here -->) It's true I learned about the issue from my first LFS people (the ones who sold the store a few yrs back)....I have looked for label and asked the new owners....No luck. They won't discuss the supply - afraid their customer will bypass them & buy from Internet I guess. I still have fish from the old owners & their suppliers. I don't have any left from the new (all new fish lasted varying months...eat fine, stake out their little territories - FINE FOR MONTH(s) - then slowly hide, stop eating, starve (even when I target feed), die.) And to think I complimented the new owners on how much more vibrantly colored their new supply stuff was! :? I was *extremely* loyal....but I'm tired of fish dying. Might be my fault? Maybe it was me (except 'old' fish are just fine). Maybe it was poisen. But there won't be a question of poisen next time around - not if I can help it!! :x

And that does not *even* address the damage done to the reefs!!

 

[Kalkbreath]

Keep in mind that the Kingdom of Tonga, Fiji, Solomon islands and other collection points ,collect our hobby fish at the same time they collect seafood fish {larger market} Collection of aquarium fish is a tiny industry compared to to pet fish on these islands What ever collection tools they are using to collect the seafood fish they are going to also use to collect our little fishies............This is why I have stated many times that we must also provide answers to the seafood collection industry fishing on these islands as well or all our reforming will be of little help out on the reef.....
_________________
how to make hash
_________________
BMW 5 Series

 

[JennM]

I think a big part of the problem also is changing your stock from a retailer's point of view. Imagine if you were a customer at a restaurant that suddenly went up on all of their prices drastically, while simultaneously reducing their menu almost in half. When asked why, they simply replied, "because we changed suppliers; our new food is better for the environment and you". Meanwhile the food "looked" exactly same, if not a tad smaller. They would lose customers left and right because most people wouldn't be able to perceive the difference in value.

On the other hand, my shop is fairly new and I started out dealing with the right animals and suppliers to begin with and it has been much easier to get over the hump so to speak because that is all I have ever offered.

I'm still a new store. Since the end of 2002 I've made HUGE changes in the way I buy and from whom I buy. Yeah selection has changed, prices are more or less the same, but mortality has dropped.

And I tell my customers why.

They still keep coming back too, so if a retailer makes the CHOICE and educates people, change will come.

I used to buy from places that had every species on their lists - I'd even pay more for the Fiji or Solomon or Marshall fish, because I BELIEVED that was what I was receiving, instead of the cheaper Indo or PI fish listed on the same stock sheet. I still had many mortalities that could not be attributed to anything at my end of the chain. Bad handling, fraud, perhaps both? Who knows? All I know is that at the end of it all I was discouraged and frustrated that even "trying to do the right thing" wasn't working.

Since I've changed my suppliers, quality has improved 10 fold. The fish speak for themselves -- they LIVE. They arrive alive, they stay alive and in many instances they are feeding within hours of arrival.

From that point of view I can't understand why EVERY retailer wouldn't do this - push for net caught or non-cyanide caught fish. If for no other reason it makes ECONOMIC sense!

No I don't have the variety of showwy stuff that some of the other local places do but that was never my style anyway. Size appropriate, reasonably hardy, attractive healthy specimens. That's my niche.

It's hard to stick to it sometimes, especially after seeing or hearing about what another shop has, etc. but nobody said the right way was easy, right?

Jenn

 

[dizzy]

From that point of view I can't understand why EVERY retailer wouldn't do this - push for net caught or non-cyanide caught fish. If for no other reason it makes ECONOMIC sense!
Jenn

Jenn,
I want net caught fish. The problem with the reform wholesalers is the variety is just to low. IMO there are plenty of healthy net-caught fish that they just don't offer. I need flame angels and yellow tangs for example. I also want queen angels, french angels, gold and blue neon gobies, and other good Caribbean fish. I want Australian fish. I want Red Sea fish. People like purple tangs and asfur angels. I want cleaner shrimp, blood red shrimp, and banded shrimp. Are invertebrates collected with cyanide as well as the fish?

The simple truth of the matter is that it is easier for me to earn a living when I offer a wider variety of healthy fish. I stay away from many of the Philippine or Indo fish, but I do stock the occasional majestic angel, imperator angel, clown trigger, blue tang, and common damsels. I also stay far away from stuff like moorish idols, ribbon eels, pinnatus, most butterflies, deadly fish, and stuff like large sharks and rays. We also don't get the quick turn on the livestock so I need stuff that lives. We also need repeat customers in our small town and that theory about selling people stuff that dies so they can replace it, doesn't work so well around here.

I'm in a much smaller market area than Hotlanta. We don't have a large customer base of concerned environmental hobbyists to draw from. It is also about a 2.5 hour round trip to the airport so getting orders from one supplier who carries healthy fish from different regions is a big advantage. I also like getting my orders packed on Sunday for Monday arrival because there is less competition from other freight, and the order is more likely to get through without problems.

Do I care about the well being of the fish we sell? Yes
Is my store God's gift to the environmental marine hobbyist? Probably not.
Am I perfect? No.
Do I want healthy net caught fish? Yes
Do I want to earn a decent living? Yes
Am I a Mother Teresa type? No.

 

[Anonymous]

Mike,

You can get in contact with Tad Akamatsu from Tecnets Co. in Osaka,Japan.
We got from him nylon monofilament netting with 0.17mm dia. 3/8 mesh 400MD X 150 meters/bundle, natural color, single knot, lengthway finish approx. 10 lbs/PC.of weight . Price C&F Manila by air freight WAS US$760/pc

They need 10pcs of minimun order and delivery time will be 3-4 months. It takes time to get it because this type of netting is the smallest mesh and twine size which is not easy to manufacturer by machine. That's what he said.

His phone number is (06) 262 5885 fax (06) 271 7587

I would suggest to deal directly with the leader of the communities or the local association of fishers, who could administrate and ensure the distribution of the nets. The nets shouldn't be given without cost. Collectors need to pay small amount of money , which can be used for buying nylon for repairs.

As a group, a message should be sent to exporters to motivate them with this action to provide the economic incentive to collectors using nets.

Mike, I find this is a good idea, but should be implemented carefully.

jaime

Jaime, the .17 mm is the "junk netting" thats been passed onto the divers as "the real deal". This netting your suggesting is in fact , one of the factors of backsliding into cyanide use. With such wimpy netting, the divers spend WAY to much topside time repairing the net, decreasing their total catch and incenstives to use nets in the first place.

 

[clarionreef]

Faking it...which is;
What this long time misunderstanding has been about.
If the wrong nets are purposely pushed to save money, it indcates and suggests a mindset that minimizes the only thing the fisherman really get to keep and use.
Minimizing the fisherman to serve a greater purpose? What purpose?
The self and the administrative staff?
This injustice to the fisherman helps perpetuate the destruction of coral and brings us into the present...many years and 'programs' later and we're still working on the same thing?
Just how much money has to be raised to train a few thousand divers anyway?
Just how many years does it take to do this?
Suddenly the revelation of real collecting netting has embarrassed certain people...now why is that?
Why has the donation of $850.00 of the right stuff gotten some so brittle, upset and defensive when its brought up?
There must be more to it then meets the eye.
Sincerely, Steve

 

[Anonymous]

double post

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Mike,

You can get in contact with Tad Akamatsu from Tecnets Co. in Osaka,Japan.
We got from him nylon monofilament netting with 0.17mm dia. 3/8 mesh 400MD X 150 meters/bundle, natural color, single knot, lengthway finish approx. 10 lbs/PC.of weight . Price C&F Manila by air freight WAS US$760/pc

They need 10pcs of minimun order and delivery time will be 3-4 months. It takes time to get it because this type of netting is the smallest mesh and twine size which is not easy to manufacturer by machine. That's what he said.

His phone number is (06) 262 5885 fax (06) 271 7587

I would suggest to deal directly with the leader of the communities or the local association of fishers, who could administrate and ensure the distribution of the nets. The nets shouldn't be given without cost. Collectors need to pay small amount of money , which can be used for buying nylon for repairs.

As a group, a message should be sent to exporters to motivate them with this action to provide the economic incentive to collectors using nets.

Mike, I find this is a good idea, but should be implemented carefully.

jaime

Jaime, the .17 mm is the "junk netting" thats been passed onto the divers as "the real deal". This netting your suggesting is in fact , one of the factors of backsliding into cyanide use. With such wimpy netting, the divers spend WAY to much topside time repairing the net, decreasing their total catch and incenstives to use nets in the first place.

You are really unbelievable. It took, you(GreshmanH and Robinson) over a year to reply to that message that I sent to M. Kirda. Both of you are now like chickens with their heads cut off. The lumbering dinosaur should just lay down and turn to stone.

Stop misleading the readers, collectors are backsliding into cyanide use because they do not see the difference, in price, between net caught and cyanide caught fish.

Stop typing down what your boss is telling you to type. Tell him NO Steve I do not want to do it any more, I am sick and tired of it. Of course that Robinson is going to say that is not good netting, he was not the one providing it to collectors. If you both are the experts you claim to be why it took over a year to make such stupid comment?

For the readers that do not know the difference between one net and another I can tell you that is not probably the best, but it does a good job without injuring the fish. Collectors need to know how to use them, of course that collectors do have to repair them. It is part of their activity.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Faking it...which is;
What this long time misunderstanding has been about.
If the wrong nets are purposely pushed to save money, it indcates and suggests a mindset that minimizes the only thing the fisherman really get to keep and use.
Minimizing the fisherman to serve a greater purpose? What purpose?
The self and the administrative staff?
This injustice to the fisherman helps perpetuate the destruction of coral and brings us into the present...many years and 'programs' later and we're still working on the same thing?
Just how much money has to be raised to train a few thousand divers anyway?
Just how many years does it take to do this?
Suddenly the revelation of real collecting netting has embarrassed certain people...now why is that?
Why has the donation of $850.00 of the right stuff gotten some so brittle, upset and defensive when its brought up?
There must be more to it then meets the eye.
Sincerely, Steve

The lumbering dinosaur should just lay down and turn stone.

 

[Anonymous]

Jaime, Steve, You both continue to throw personal insults around, in some kind of strange mud-slinging pissing match. I'm running out of patience (and options) trying to moderate it.

Cool it.