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Anonymous
Guest
Was wondering if any one could give a behind the scenes opinion of it. It seemed to be pretty slick and glossy.
Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, they say or print for public consumption is precisely calculated- meant to make MAC appeal to any and all. Slick is an understatement. Heck, they had me- the eternal pessimist- bamboozled for almost 2 years. Imagine what they can do with someone who has zero knowledge of the workings of the industry...
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
All the support I hear from MAC is political, ie. if not them than who then?
I´d just like to hear more than campaign talk for a change.
Specifics imply closer knowledge . Perhaps thats why we get the begginers auto pilot eco speak template on the win-win, multistakeholder, all inclusive exhaustive research process blah, blah and not anything resembling a real grass roots, village campaign in Indo and the Philippines to actually train anybody .
The sales talk is fine if there is something real to go with it. But its easier to convince begginers than professionals and therein lies the problem.
To this day I can´t imagine why the fear of actually implementing the reforms we hear of is so great. It seems to me that you should actually come up with the product first and then sell it...not sell it and then just leave it at that like a campaign promise.
I don´t want to hear just environmental platitudes pitched by people who cannot implement, field train, catch fish, pack fish or care for fish properly. Why not focus more on solving the problem than talking about it so much? Real field work on film can do wonders for credibility and thats something I could support.
PS. Theres a new saying that those who can´t do...teach. And those who can´t teach...certify. Without the teaching, how on earth do we jump ahead to the certifying?
Steve
In the field
I´d just like to hear more than campaign talk for a change.
Specifics imply closer knowledge . Perhaps thats why we get the begginers auto pilot eco speak template on the win-win, multistakeholder, all inclusive exhaustive research process blah, blah and not anything resembling a real grass roots, village campaign in Indo and the Philippines to actually train anybody .
The sales talk is fine if there is something real to go with it. But its easier to convince begginers than professionals and therein lies the problem.
To this day I can´t imagine why the fear of actually implementing the reforms we hear of is so great. It seems to me that you should actually come up with the product first and then sell it...not sell it and then just leave it at that like a campaign promise.
I don´t want to hear just environmental platitudes pitched by people who cannot implement, field train, catch fish, pack fish or care for fish properly. Why not focus more on solving the problem than talking about it so much? Real field work on film can do wonders for credibility and thats something I could support.
PS. Theres a new saying that those who can´t do...teach. And those who can´t teach...certify. Without the teaching, how on earth do we jump ahead to the certifying?
Steve
In the field
This whole thing puts us retailers in a tough spot. What do we do when magazine hobbyist come into the shop looking for certified fish? Telling them it's all a bunch of hype and then trying to sell them uncertified fish while the guy down the streets jumps on the bandwagon with both feet won't work. So do we join up or not? If this things gets into the press the way it looks like it might, we may not have a choice.
Glenn
Glenn
Glen,,,
I tell my customers the whole facts and why I refuse to jump on the "platitude" bandwagon.
(besides most already know the crap I went through when part of AMDA)
As far as the "guy down the street"--he tells people he put me out of business already, and the customers can see he is lying through his teeth, so don't believe what ever else he tells them. We can only educate our own customers and can't really do anything about those who aren't !!
I tell my customers the whole facts and why I refuse to jump on the "platitude" bandwagon.
(besides most already know the crap I went through when part of AMDA)
As far as the "guy down the street"--he tells people he put me out of business already, and the customers can see he is lying through his teeth, so don't believe what ever else he tells them. We can only educate our own customers and can't really do anything about those who aren't !!
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Rover,
being forced to fib first and get to the actual reform movement later if ever, is exactly the problem.
MAC thought the problem was already pretty much solved and that it was OK to launch the certification business. Then they found out that the problem was not solved and chose to keep it under wraps. With no solving on the horizon, you´re pretty much stuck with fibbing about the origin of the fish or dealing in only the more limited supply of netcaught fishes. Either way you lose.
Forcing supporters to fib works as long as everyone is cloaked in plausable deniability. The problem arises with those who actually want to walk the walk and deal honestly and environmentally ethically.
As a real environmentalist { yet ashamed to claim so because so many environmentalists have become frauds} I don´t want to fib for a living. I want the reforms to go with and match the certifications being offered for sale.
No training...no peace.
Steve
being forced to fib first and get to the actual reform movement later if ever, is exactly the problem.
MAC thought the problem was already pretty much solved and that it was OK to launch the certification business. Then they found out that the problem was not solved and chose to keep it under wraps. With no solving on the horizon, you´re pretty much stuck with fibbing about the origin of the fish or dealing in only the more limited supply of netcaught fishes. Either way you lose.
Forcing supporters to fib works as long as everyone is cloaked in plausable deniability. The problem arises with those who actually want to walk the walk and deal honestly and environmentally ethically.
As a real environmentalist { yet ashamed to claim so because so many environmentalists have become frauds} I don´t want to fib for a living. I want the reforms to go with and match the certifications being offered for sale.
No training...no peace.
Steve
I don’t have a copy of the FAMA article so I can’t comment, If any one wants to send me one I’d appreciate it.
Here’s a little update for all from CORL…..
CORL-AS has a started it’s pilot program in American Samoa (AS), the AS government did get the funding for a new Marine center and CORL will be a part of it
. We will be looking into creating a program to train several marine fish collectors in proper low or 0 impact net collection in the near future. I will set it up for you to come down and help design the net training program and teach collectors from AS and West Samoa after things in the wholesale business slow down in the late spring.
Sarala from the Malaysia Coral farm (Coral life) (no association to Coral life USA) is going to be here at the CORL-USA office in a few days and I will try my best to get her organization to support and promote true net caught reform there also. They are asking me to help design their new coral farm and research facility and I will be traveling there soon if I can get the OK from the AS government to take a few days off. We have been talking with Coral life about becoming a member of the Coalition for some time now and with this meeting will finalize their joining of CORL. I will talk to them about a trip to the Sulu sea to check out collection methods being used there, this would be a great dive trip and we can also shoot some video footage for a documentary on the trade also.
Looks like I’ll be stateside for at least 3 more weeks so give me a call when you can.
Mike King
Here’s a little update for all from CORL…..
CORL-AS has a started it’s pilot program in American Samoa (AS), the AS government did get the funding for a new Marine center and CORL will be a part of it
. We will be looking into creating a program to train several marine fish collectors in proper low or 0 impact net collection in the near future. I will set it up for you to come down and help design the net training program and teach collectors from AS and West Samoa after things in the wholesale business slow down in the late spring. Sarala from the Malaysia Coral farm (Coral life) (no association to Coral life USA) is going to be here at the CORL-USA office in a few days and I will try my best to get her organization to support and promote true net caught reform there also. They are asking me to help design their new coral farm and research facility and I will be traveling there soon if I can get the OK from the AS government to take a few days off. We have been talking with Coral life about becoming a member of the Coalition for some time now and with this meeting will finalize their joining of CORL. I will talk to them about a trip to the Sulu sea to check out collection methods being used there, this would be a great dive trip and we can also shoot some video footage for a documentary on the trade also.
Looks like I’ll be stateside for at least 3 more weeks so give me a call when you can.
Mike King
I have two pieces of advice from a hobbyist.
1. Buy only from wholesalers who only sell ethically caught and fish and coral which are keepable and plaster your store with their certificates or adverts.
2. Tell the truth about where your fish are coming from. If you don't know for sure switch suppliers.
1. Buy only from wholesalers who only sell ethically caught and fish and coral which are keepable and plaster your store with their certificates or adverts.
2. Tell the truth about where your fish are coming from. If you don't know for sure switch suppliers.
No Rover the certificates can come from suppliers to you who you know one hundred percent that you can trust.
The adverts would also be from them.
IMO most reefers who have been around these boards for a while, would prefer to deal with LFS who deal with ethical suppliers. The rest need educating. The suppliers should give you attractive helpful handouts that give advice and also promote ethical catchment, handling and keepable fish.
But if you keep gonipora and cleaner wrasse fpr example,you will lose all credibility.
The adverts would also be from them.
IMO most reefers who have been around these boards for a while, would prefer to deal with LFS who deal with ethical suppliers. The rest need educating. The suppliers should give you attractive helpful handouts that give advice and also promote ethical catchment, handling and keepable fish.
But if you keep gonipora and cleaner wrasse fpr example,you will lose all credibility.
Oh if it was that easy......... Manado, Indo {Mega} sells ten thousand bagg. cardinals and clownfish to Bali each week. Tahiti and Christmas island sell to the best Hawaiin { WOW} shipper each week as well?So Many fish are mixed together EVEN at the collectors sites, that it is impossible to tell where many fish came from.and thats before it even ever gets to LAX to be shuffled again and again. Tell me again how each FISH is to be Certified? Will there be Tags attatched to each fish {with those theft collars on them so if you try to remove the collar a MAC alarm will be set off back at MAC headcorders?}
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You don't know what you are talking about.
I agree and do my best.
They don't.
I don't. I really wish it were as easy as you seem to think. But unfortunately it's not. It's like asking the grocery store clerk whether or not the Washington apples really came from Washington.
Glenn[/quote]
Rover are you aware that Drs. Smith & Foster are seeking MAC certification. This means that the same guys who are selling 200-gallon buckets of Instant Ocean to the public for $36.00 (and eating most of the freight accordind to "Cheap IO found" thread) will also be selling MAC certified fish on-line. Not only will stores like Live Aquaria sell MAC certified fish for less, they will also get first pick of the cherry species, because they will be doing the volume. MAC certification will likely be the beginning of the end for the independent marine store. Petco is also seeking MAC certification. If MAC actually ever does come up with any good fish, they are not likely to go to the little guys.
I'm not surprised at all. But don't count out the little guy. There hasn't been a study yet that has shown that the large chains were putting the same dent into the independant pet stores as they did into hardware and department stores. Bottom line is people want service and information, which they can't provide. Actually I think the more people who get certified, the less problem I'll have. It won't work if it's not exclusive to some degree. If Petco gets certified, it will be much easier to dismiss as most of the important customers know that the average Petco doesn't have a clue. It's competition between other independants that worries me.
Rover,
You should learn all you can about MAC. Go to www.aquariumcouncil.org and carefully study the standards of practice. Try to think about the consequences imposing such standards will have on the industry, both short term and long term. If you honestly think MAC will lead to a better industry then you should support them. If you think MAC may damage the industry then you probably should not support them. You should base your decision to support or not support MAC based soley on the merits and not because of what someone else is doing.
Mitch
You should learn all you can about MAC. Go to www.aquariumcouncil.org and carefully study the standards of practice. Try to think about the consequences imposing such standards will have on the industry, both short term and long term. If you honestly think MAC will lead to a better industry then you should support them. If you think MAC may damage the industry then you probably should not support them. You should base your decision to support or not support MAC based soley on the merits and not because of what someone else is doing.
Mitch
The very fact that MAC would allow Petco to be certified shows that certification is fluff. What is it again that certification will mean ?Today , There is only one country which is not collecting within MAC Guidelines As of And that country supplies 80% of the fish for the hobby. This means a MAC certified Bicolor blenny will cost twenty times what it does today, just based on what a fiji ,Hawaii,Tonga,etc. blenny costs today! Now make the demand for fish from these islands jump eightyfold and tiny reef fish which are difficult at best to catch with nets.....your going to price these fish out of reach of most newbies,at a time price is most important. at the same time increasing the collection rates on other islands. As it is today only one set of islands in the world is harming its reefs by collection for the trade{and even this can be argued} Whats wrong with leaving whats been sustainable for twentyyears ,alone ..........and if these group of islands{PI} are truly over fishing its' reefs , {again little evidence of this after two decades}Then at least this would contain the damage to one group of islands out of hundreds in the world!
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Rover your comments could only mean that I was not clear.
As a reefer I would accept a 'certificate signed by a supplier to a LFS' certifying ethical catchment, transport, and holding. I would expect the LFS to do what ever it takes to ensure that that that suppliers certification is legit.
Kalk what is wrong with dramatic increases in the price of offshore coral and fish?
If they cost more perhaps all those in the industry chain would take more care in ensuring the fish and corals survival and the impossible to keep species would be left in the sea.
In other words if a LFS lost one hundred bucks instead of 10 bucks on the powder blue tang that died of disease perhaps they would reconsider even carrying them except for special order by experienced reefers and researchers.
Why do you feel an obligation to supply newbie with cheap fish?
As a reefer I would accept a 'certificate signed by a supplier to a LFS' certifying ethical catchment, transport, and holding. I would expect the LFS to do what ever it takes to ensure that that that suppliers certification is legit.
Kalk what is wrong with dramatic increases in the price of offshore coral and fish?
If they cost more perhaps all those in the industry chain would take more care in ensuring the fish and corals survival and the impossible to keep species would be left in the sea.
In other words if a LFS lost one hundred bucks instead of 10 bucks on the powder blue tang that died of disease perhaps they would reconsider even carrying them except for special order by experienced reefers and researchers.
Why do you feel an obligation to supply newbie with cheap fish?
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