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horge

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Visit to a CDT Lab.

After verifying that the old hive was devoid of all flunkies/protégés of my old sparring mate Corazon del Mundo, I decided to surprise the troops at BFAR (Bureau of Fisheries and Aquatic Resources) Main, here in Quezon City, Philippines. The old Arcadia Building looked spiffed up, and it was with a shock that I realized it was actually next door to the notorious Pegasus "gentlemen's club", a brightly lit nighttime landmark. I never connected the younger institution with the Arcadia's location; but anyway.

I had originally intended to look into Ferdinand Cruz' suspicion that Batasan Island in Bohol was actually off-limits to ornamentals collection by virtue of an old MPA (Marine Protected Area) designation. BFAR Legal Department apparently knows of no such designation, but admits that some of the older slugs at DENR (Department of Environment and Natural Resources) might know otherwise. So, Ferdie, it seems that the Dimayuga op is still in the clear with respect to local environmental law. I'd try to visit the DENR next week, but I have very, very few friends there, and have to be very careful not to be recognized by old enemies.

A pleasant surprise was finding some old friends still at it, though further up the totem pole than I remember. I got to ask quite a number of questions regarding CDT facilities and practical use thereof throughout the Philippines. I will not name names, but I did leave Sandy A. out of it ---I talked to the people doing the actual testing, in the hope that they would be less guarded.

There are presently four (4) CDT facilities operating in the Philippines, all using equipment paid for by the Filipino people, down to glassware.

No money or equipment was ever received from a foreign organization or indvidual, towards setting up these facilities, nor the (in their own words) largely-unnecessary (re)training of Filipino scientists in the use of said equipment.
These testing labs are located in:

a. Quezon City, Metro Manila ---in the North
b. Puerto Princesa (not Coron), Palawan ---in the West
c. Tacloban, Leyte ---in the Central-East, apparently relocated from elsewhere.
d. Davao City, Davao ---in the war-torn South

e. **a fifth facility, in Cebu, wasn't represented by photos. It is said to be identically equipped, if somewhat 'unpopular' (I didn't understand what they meant by that, and the converstaion was so fleet in changing topic I never got to revisit).

I got to see photos of the labs in the other three locations, and they seemed to bear out the claim that the facilities are virtually identical in equipment and capability. One of the techs had rotated out of the Cebu lab and could vouch for his fomer place of work. The Quezon City lab has equipment up on the second floor in a much cleaner building than I remember, with some more stuff on the ground floor.

The rooms were pretty spartan, but clean and tidy.
Not a few fluorescent bulbs needed changing.
The coats and motley techs looked pretty sleep-deprived but courteously helpful, and I was hard put keeping the conversation at layman's level. They actually tried to teach me --and they were plenty determined-- EXACTLY how their test differed from the lower-pressure gas chromatography and IR spectro I was used to in college (graduated from UP Diliman, eh, so he's a nerd like us ---shyeahh right), while my wife graciously restrained tears of abject boredom.

Anyway, a curious thing (for outsiders) is that ornamentals collected in Northern Palawan, such as from Coron Island, are sent to Quezon City, Metro Manila for testing. It actually takes longer to send it to Palawan's capital. A sample from Coron takes 24 hours max to reach BFAR Main here in Quezon City. It can take much more than twice as long for it to get to Puerto Princesa, if you're unlucky. That's capitalism and the profit-based development of commercial air- and sea-routes for you.

The testing facilities are ISE and tissue-based (not Picric acid, tankwater-based as I had feared). The threshold for clearing a sample, declaring it "clean" in the eyes of the law, remains at 0.2 ppm (I was made to understand that this figure was take from literature prepared by someone familiar to this board, all as stipulated in a quasi-consultancy contract which the same person failed to deliver completely on, but I digress). You really can hold a cyanide capture for 24++ hours to let it piss all the evidence out and it'll get a "clean" bill of health, though the tech will KNOW its dirty.

While there has been a lot of yelling that for a CDT, "zero ought to be zero" (and I'm here, about to give up a long-held restraint kept for the sake of avoiding argument with those who claim to know more than others) people should understand a couple of things. The operators say the equipment has shown it can detect cyanide down to concentrations of .05 ppm --any less than that simply IS zero to the test.

Cyanide occurs naturally in the body, though in super low quantities, and perhaps some study on vitamin B12 and its kin is in order for all interested, just for the sake of intellectual honesty. The point is it's never going to be really, truly zero. More relevant, anthropogenic sources of cyanide (from mining activities and plastics manufacture) can taint what is a cleanly-captured ornamental. Unrelated cyanide fishing in the area is also a potetial cause of false positives. Mindoro has a lot of commercial and backyard mining and refining going on, and this is common throughout the Visayas. From Leyte on up to the Bicol region there are a lot of secret gold and silver ops, and backyard refineries, and while mercury is expensive, cyanide is cheap, remember?

There isn't any data on fish tissue taken from river deltas that are downstream from mines and/or plastics factories to allow BFAR to tailor its thresholds to such local conditions. If you want to help out, try sending any such data to BFAR or if you like to me so I can give it to them. Don't ask me to goddamn pay for it because I probably make less in a goddamned month of OT what you make in an effing day. PDF, MS Word, text file, or hardcopy, we don't care ---they'll take any peer-reviewed reference for study and consideration.

The last ornamental sample submitted to the Quezon City lab was a trigger from Bataan, over a month ago. Before that, there was a very small batch of fishes sent for clearance by a certain Paul Holthus (I've seen his name mentioned on this board and as tired as I am, I really don't give half an utot who he is, but there it is for your interest. Like me, they don't know him from jack, but the foreign name stuck) back in December or January-ish. In case it isn't clear yet, the bulk of testing is done on commercial food fish, more than nine out of ten being groupers, apparently intended for the HK and Taiwan market. Private companies can pay around P250 to have a sample tested, and this Holthus person at least paid his due fair and square, unlike some would-be messiahs from overseas.

Some representatives of foreign eco/aquaristic organizations try to use the Philippines' image as a cyanide hell-hole as a means to extract US government funding for unrelated uses. Maybe someone could, say, draw up a plan that will use, say $40,000 in US funding towards, say, "Enhanced CDT Labs" here, but will actually execute by "borrowing" (not even renting!) BFAR's existing equipment and personnel for the whole exercise. No improvement to the existing CDT infrastructure, and virtually no transfer of technology since it's the same goddamned equipment BFAR bought, paid fairly for, and is currently using, --operated by the same regular-wage BFAR techies who might then be scratching their heads over just who is being helped by US funds, and what CDT enhancements are being discovered. Leche. Punyeta.

Sorry, off-topic, but...
what the heck ---we're there anyway so might as well go all the way:
When I mentioned John Brandt, hehe there were knowing looks to each other and restrained smiles all around. When I mentioned another familiar name ---well, I think this know-it-all can imagine what BFAR and most local environmentalists and eco-organizations think of him.
Okay, okay... I'm done with the venting.

Anyway there it is: the CDT lab in QC, which handles practically everything from Bataan, Zambales, Pangasinan, Quezon, Batangas, the Mindoros, Northern Palawan and even Bohol (when the Cebu lab is closed for local fiestas) got only two submissions of ornamental samples for testing, since October of 2002 to today. The Bataan sample barely cleared the test. The foodfish? We're talking up to hundreds of samples in a month.

Two ornamental submissions from October 2002 to first week of May 2003.
How many units of ornamentals were shipped to the US in that period of time? How many were declared as tested and cleared?

BFAR legal is severely undermanned and generally, BFAR really gets by on employees spending their own money to inspect and identify offenders. As if that isn't bad enough, please be aware that if an exporter/wholesaler gets his/her photo taken with a foreign environmental organization's visiting rep, then that's all she wrote for inspection and enforcement. That exporter/wholesaler will simply flash the photo to politicians, mention potential dollar eco-aid (man, talk about building up false expectations), and orders will come down from Olympus for BFAR to leave said exporter/wholesaler alone ---he/she's free to screw the environment.

John, Mike K, etc.--- be careful with the effing photo ops, please.
Try not to look like you're endorsing a goddamned candidate for public office.

I actually remember a screw-you fiasco due to a simple photo with Daniel Knop in Cebu some years back. No, Knop wasn't guilty of anything, but the photo op paved the way for kid-glove treatment of a certain notorious PTFEA member. The bast got away with murder through two administrations.

As I left the BFAR, I noticed an aquaristic crime:
A goldfish 50 gallon (approx 50, okay?), with over a dozen fist-sized Orandas lolling around. No filter, no substrate, no nothing, except a fragmentary membrane thermometer(???) and a powerhead. The cloudy water seemed to smell of ammonia. This, in the middle of BFAR.

But hold on.
Turns out, the fish were an unsolicited, unwanted gift from some exporter that morning
They get all kinds of crap like that all the time, delivered in several plastic bags with a greeting card. It's a miracle BFAR flunkies found an empty tank and stand to put those poor things into. The guard said it was temporary, until the working day ended and they could figure out whose kids would get a fish for a pet, or who could sell the poor Orandas.

A stranger walking in would have looked at the tragic tank and deduced that all of BFAR was clueless and uncaring. By asking questions, I found the truth ---All the BFAR regular staff I met make do with what they have, and fight the good fight, while many others (here and overseas) pretend to fight only when donor and sponsor dollars are up for grabs. Leche, but even the security guard who could barely speak English volunteered that the goldfish were suffering from "ammonia".

I'll be back next week to learn more, or maybe just to cheer them up.
Knowing that their efforts can count for something likely gets buried under the drudgery of test after test.


Horge
 

MaryHM

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Horge,

Thank you so much for the investigative reporting. BTW, Paul Holthus is the executive director of MAC.

I have a few questions:

In the past when the CDT was apparently "up and running", how did they receive their samples? Did the exporters send them in or did a BFAR/whoever rep go into the facility and randomly choose fish to test?

You really can hold a cyanide capture for 24++ hours to let it piss all the evidence out and it'll get a "clean" bill of health, though the tech will KNOW its dirty.

This is really scary. I mean, the collector could hold fish for an extra 8 hours, the middleman hold the fish for an extra 8 hours, and the exporter hold the fish for an extra 8 hours and waa-la we have a "clean" fish.

But hold on.
Turns out, it was an unsolicited, unwanted gift from some exporter that morning
They get all kinds of crap like that all the time, delivered in several plastic bags with a greeting card.

I don't want to offend you, but I have heard that bribes grease the wheels in the Philippines. I have witnessed this first hand in Fiji. Is this what the goldfish represents or am I completely off base?
 

dizzy

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horge":iutfdfbk said:
Sorry, off-topic, but...
what the heck ---we're there anyway so might as well go all the way:
When I mentioned John Brandt, hehe there were knowing looks to each other and restrained smiles all around. When I mentioned another familiar name ---well, I think this know-it-all can imagine what BFAR and most local environmentalists and eco-organizations think of him.
Okay, okay... I'm done with the venting.
Horge

Quite possibly the shortest reputational reprieve in history.
 

horge

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MaryHM":p1h8waj8 said:
BTW, Paul Holthus is the executive director of MAC.

I'm sure Paul Holthus is a decent bloke, but as tired as I am, I still couldn't give half an utot what he does for a living, for leisure, for self-affirmation or for his fellow human beings... but more power to him in all his righteous endeavours, whatever the utot they are.

MaryHM":p1h8waj8 said:
I have a few questions:
In the past when the CDT was apparently "up and running", how did they receive their samples? Did the exporters send them in or did a BFAR/whoever rep go into the facility and randomly choose fish to test?

Everything I heard indicated that BFAR doesn't have the manpower or moolah to go to every collector/exporter/wholesaler regularly and do first-hand sample collection, let alone testing there. I imagine it happens, as it is supposed to, but not universally. I'll ask them point-blank next week, okay?

...the collector could hold fish for an extra 8 hours, the middleman hold the fish for an extra 8 hours, and the exporter hold the fish for an extra 8 hours and waa-la we have a "clean" fish.

Yes, but still, my point was that the coats can 'tell' if a fish is tainted, even though it comes in under the mandated .2 ppm threshhold. They will need solid refs to work out a stricter scale by which to grade test results, possibly tailored to the collection locale, but none of this "absolute zero" horse-shyte.

I don't want to offend you, but I have heard that bribes grease the wheels in the Philippines. I have witnessed this first hand in Fiji. Is this what the goldfish represents or am I completely off base?

Goldfish? MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
****wipes tears from eyes***
I apologize, but you may have no idea how funny that is.
Sorry, no. That was an honest gift, and obviously from a newb applicant, the idiot. It's old-fashioed manners to give gifts in appreciation for honest work. The giftgiver was probably surprised not to be squeezed for a 'fee' to ensure a good test result.

A bribe would be substantial cash.
Hypothetically, the briber would never even set foot in BFAR --the transaction would take place elsewhere and no samples would ever be needed to get his clearance... but

I have neither proof nor even evidence that BFAR has accepted bribes.

Everything I observed (and as an arbitrator in construction and design contracts, I study behavioral cues) indicated to me that the BFAR lab staff in Quezon City are serious about their work, and place supreme value on ethics as scientists and as custodians of public trust.


Orders from above, for the BFAR to "look the other way" might suggest that the bribery is occuring somewhere up the food chain. The footsoldiers would be unaware of the order ---they simply test what they get, or field-inspect what they're assigned. Anything outside of their order of battle might as well be myth, I guess.





horge
 

clarionreef

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Horge,
I very much enjoyed your post.
Especially the illustration of hard working "lab coats" that resent foreigners bigger salaries, intrusions, outside opinions etc. but who presumably have opinions of their own. That was good.
Too bad they only get to verify what is open and presented to them. The dirty trade still goes out the back door to Hong Kong, no?
Speaking of doors. The snake head tank inside the front door of BFAR? Still there? Having "sip-sipped" to Chinese interests for so long in H.K. and Taiwan, I found it amusing to see a snakehead guarding the entrance to the countries fishery department.
Steve
 

mkirda

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horge":3aea0j9y said:
John, Mike K, etc.--- be careful with the effing photo ops, please.
Try not to look like you're endorsing a goddamned candidate for public office.

Horge,

Understand this fully. Any photos I have taken or have used are for either personal edification or articles. Normally, I am there to hear the people's story, not to put myself into the picture... I would not be a good model at photo ops.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

MaryHM

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You know, going back and reading my "bribe" post I must admit I had to chuckle. I just thought they maybe they were being given the fish to sell for cash on that high $$, underground Philippino oranda black market ;)

I'm looking forward to hearing the answer to the "how are the samples obtained" question. Thanks for being our eyes and ears over there. It's much appreciated!
 

PeterIMA

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Horge,

Thanks for the insider view of how BFAR is conducting cyande testing using the ASTM methodology for measuring cyanide ion using reflux distillation and the ISE electrode and meter (that I described in my recent paper and on Reefs.org). It certainly confirms that the needs of the aquarium exporters for proper fish monitoring and CDT are not being met by BFAR.

A couple of questions about cyanide being "pissed away" below the 0.2 ppm standard. Did BFAR indicate they had done any experiments to confirm the rate of cyanide decline through metabolism and excretion? If not, you and BFAR staff are just speculating (with a few swear words thrown in for effect).

A second question, How do you know that BFAR paid for all the equipment they now posses? My information is that the IMA turned over CDT equipment that it owns and has not been compensated for either the equipment or for the work conducted during the last year of its contract with BFAR.

The range that cyanide can be reliably detected is from 0.03 mg/kg (ppm) to 10 ppm provided the staff follows the four point calibration descibed in the SOP manuals. This is the range over which the calibraton is linear on a semi-log scale. Or course you know this from taking chemistry in college and from quickly reading the manuals during you visit. Right? Cyanide can be detected below 0.03 ppm but may not fall on the straight line of the calibration. This was also confirmed by the American Society of Testing and Materials (ASTM) through round robin comparisons between different analytical laboratories.

I would agree that values lower than 0.03 ppm could be considered zero in terms of prosecution. I am surprised that BFAR is still using the 0.2 ppm cutoff level (for which there is no scientific basis) to support their reporting of fish as "Positive". The SOP manuals recommend that they report levels of 0.03 to less than 0.2 ppm as traces and 0.2 ppm and above as Positive. Values >0 to <0.03 should be reported as Below Detectable Limits (BLD). Values of 0 should be reported as Zero. I guess BFAR is not following the SOP manuals provided to them during the training course, that they received from IMA staff in September 2001.

You did not mention what NGO you are criticizing. You also took pains not to mention the name of the "foreigner" that BFAR does not apparently like. I should mention that all of the IMA CDT staff who previously worked in the BFAR/IMA CDT laboratories were Filipinos. So, I guess you did not intend to criticise them (since they are not foreigners).

You seem to know the BFAR headquarters building located at 860 Quezon Boulevard in Quezon City quite well. You accurately described its dingy run-down condition. So, I found your surprise that it looked cleaner than you remembered of interest (having been there numerous times myself). Did you work for DENR (where you made enemies) or for BFAR (less enemies more friends)?

I also found that you accurately described where the present BFAR laboratories are located. I am somewhat dismayed that two of the more important laboratories (Cebu City and Zamboanga City are either closed or not active). It is of interest as you mentioned that the CDT laboratory previously situated in Palo, Leyte was transferred to Tacloban, Leyte. You also correctly mentioned that there is no CDT laboratory in Coron (although BFAR wishes to set one up there). The IMA found as you mentioned that it was easier to ship samples to the Manila CDT laboratory by air than to ship them to Puerto Princesa. I should note that John Brandt incorrectly reported that there was a new CDT laboratory in Coron. Your posting and other communications with former IMA Chemists confirm that this is not the case.

I think that the most relevant fact that you present is what I have already stated previously "Very little cyanide testing of marine aquarium fishes is being done in the Quezon City CDT laboratory at BFAR headquarters." I am not clear why BFAR staff believes that obtaining a grant from the USA to reimplement the level of testing done previously is such a bad idea. Can you explain this?

The MAC Certification program would benefit from more CDT on marine aquarium fish (You stated that most of BFAR's testing is on food fish).
The foreign buyers of marine aquarium fish would also benefit from knowing that the fish were collected without the use of cyanide. Trade with other countries of marine fish caught sustainably can help conserve coral reefs to benefit the Philippines.

Sincerely,
Peter Rubec
 

horge

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PeterIMA":zxlxvibj said:
A couple of questions about cyanide being "pissed away" below the 0.2 ppm standard. Did BFAR indicate they had done any experiments to confirm the rate of cyanide decline through metabolism and excretion?

That was mostly me talking, not BFAR CDT lab staff, though they all conceded it was possible to beat the test under the current 'grading scale' of readings.

No, I was not shown local documentation/studies on rates at which ornamentals (might as well make it thoroughly relevant) metabolize cyanide. I was there to ask about MPA's covering Bohol, which unexpectedly led to a quickie tour of the lab. Please note that I characterized the whole thing as a 'Visit', and not 'Investigation', precisely because it centered on a casual conversation with the lab staff that got pleasantly and repeatedly extended. It was 6:00 in the evening by the time we parted.

But I did not ask for documentation because I personally don't need it. Our group has already watched someone cheat both the field colorimetric test and then the lab in QC. An associate observed dirty capture and then observed the 'Pissover'. The sample was submitted and it was good enough to clear. The sample was grouper from a company based in Mandaue, and this was fairly recent.

In all cordiality, why don't we all (not just you Peter) cut all the show-me bullnuggets since in this case it's suuuuch a simple matter to try it yourself. You CAN obtain sodium cyanide in the US, right?
Now, I am NOT suggesting you test it on yourself, no. Nope.
No, no, no. I wouldn't suggest that at all... no, never.

:twisted:

While we're at it, "Piss" is not entirely accurate, but delivers the idea with admirable economy.

A second question, How do you know that BFAR paid for all the equipment they now posses? My information is that the IMA turned over CDT equipment that it owns and has not been compensated for either the equipment or for the work conducted during the last year of its contract with BFAR.

Then 'your information' may be misleading.
The Contract Terms, Official Receipts and other documentation seemed quite clear as far as I was able to learn, and maybe the BFAR, the Asian Development Bank, or the Office of the President of the Republic of the Philippines, the Pope and even God Almighty might provide the clarity you crave, but me? I'm not party to this wrinkle. Ne'ertheless...

As an outsider to this wrinkle, I think that if IMA feel they wuz robbeded,
they might then seek relief in a court of law...
But if BFAR has solid documentary proof supporting their side,
then maybe IMA shouldn't file in court,
nor misrepresent themselves as CDT Lab donors of any kind.

I would agree that values lower than 0.03 ppm could be considered zero in terms of prosecution. I am surprised that BFAR is still using the 0.2 ppm cutoff level (for which there is no scientific basis) to support their reporting of fish as "Positive". The SOP manuals recommend that they report levels of 0.03 to less than 0.2 ppm as traces and 0.2 ppm and above as Positive. Values >0 to <0.03 should be reported as Below Detectable Limits (BLD). Values of 0 should be reported as Zero. I guess BFAR is not following the SOP manuals provided to them during the training course, that they received from IMA staff in September 2001.


Re-read exactly what you typed, as quoted above. Carefully, okay?
They are reporting only the 0.2 ppm's and greater as "positive" because that's exactly what the SOP mandates, as per your own post. Anything less is nearly always "trace". So what aren't they doing right? If the SOP madates 0,2 ppm and you now say 0.2ppm "has no scientific basis", then what joker wrote the now baseless SOP? Or have you misspoken?

Be careful not to make it sound like these guys couldn't properly use the equipment without your constant, dollar/piso-funded supervision... one might think you were fishing for grants, employment, and relevance for your orgnization. Besides, if you first claim you trained them and then now claim they are incompetent... well, do you know the adage about there being no bad students?

My own point was that for political and legal purposes, anything under 0.2 ppm is interpreted by the outside world as NOT POSITIVE. We can call it trace or whatever you like, but once outside BFAR, for the purposes of practical prosecution, it's positive or it isn't. Burden of proof, reasonable doubt, "proof positive" and all that. The precedent was set with that SOP dictate, where 0.2ppm is the breach into "positive", and that's what was recognized beyond BFAR. It will take work to get them to adjust to any new, stricter standard.

Moving the goalposts is never popular even with your own teammates, and if the goalposts were ill-placed to begin with, then whoever positioned them initially probably wasn't paying attention.

The reason I requested data on accidental-contamination (vs. outright cyanide captures) was to help BFAR inch the positive threshhold lower with scientifically- and therefore politically-defensible basis.
The first step to my mind is to ask for existing data. So I'm asking this Forum.
If that plea proves fruitless, then raw data will have to be gathered here in 'pinas --an expensive, labor-intensive and sometimes dangerous proposition.

You did not mention what NGO you are criticizing. You also took pains not to mention the name of the "foreigner" that BFAR does not apparently like.

Golly.
Imagine that...

I am somewhat dismayed that two of the more important laboratories (Cebu City and Zamboanga City are either closed or not active)

As already posted initially, Cebu CDT Lab is still there, but I was quite bothered by the 'unpopular'(???) comment, so sort-of left it off the list. It is nevertheless given 'honorable mention'. I did not hear of a lab in Zamboanga throughout our rambling discussions, which weren't exclusively about matters that interest this Forum.

I am not clear why BFAR staff believes that obtaining a grant from the USA to reimplement the level of testing done previously is such a bad idea. Can you explain this?

Their take was that, on that particular proposal, BFAR wouldn't be the one receiving the grant nor any benefit therefrom. Parts of what I've since learned of the proposal dovetail neatly with their assessment. Maybe you can ask them yourself, since you claim familiarity with BFAR.

Independent of foreign assistance (or exploitation), BFAR is apparently working to get a better 'grading scale' to mate to the readings, and especially to the real working world of law, enforcement, and Filipino concerns, if it can be had.

BFAR is NOT doing this to please MAC, IMA, American retailers, nor any foreigners, but to protect both the environment and the honest Filipino fisherman. It might surprise you, but technical competence, environmental activism, plain old initiative and solid patriotism are not the sole province of Americans.

Did you work for DENR (where you made enemies) or for BFAR (less enemies more friends)?

Ah, so now we depart from legitimate business, and stray into what is personal. So be it, then: let's get personal. Where I work is none of your business, whatever it is your business may turn out to actually be.

Assume what you will.
Did you not once loudly assume that I was LYING(!!) about my nationality?
Because I seemed too well-educated to be a Filipino???
Your comments back then were read by many Filipinos with disgust.

The next time you defile these shores, let me know.

I can show you just how Filipino I am, so you won't ever doubt it again.
...if you have the stones to match your arrogance.
:twisted:





----------------

Steve,
I was so fagged out from fighting traffic (I had to go to Pasay first and then swing back homewards to drop by BFAR), that I didn't notice ANY tanks on my way in. On the more-rested way out the building, that goldfish tank closer to the elevators commanded all attention. I DO think there was a large tank near the entrance, but I seem (gestalt is sooo tricky) to imagine they housed large Oscars.

Maybe the old snakehead simply up and walked over to Pegasus,
and now performs there regularly.
Or maybe it tends bar. 'Drinks like a fish' and all that, no?

Next time you or Mike Kirda swing by, I might offer to accompany you to Pegasus.
ARCADIA.

Arcadia. I meant Arcadia... as in BFAR.... right?
To ogle the ...fish in the lobby? I said fish.

Oh, never mind.
:oops:


horge
 

PeterIMA

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Horge, You display a knowledge of the inner workings of BFAR that could only come from having close contracts there. That is informative.

I for one have not seen the contract that IMA signed with BFAR. I still maintain that the work done by IMA for BFAR was well done (and I have the database to prove it). I will be speaking to the Director Atty. Malcolm Sarmeinto and will request clarification on some of the matters that you raised.

There is a proposal that I hope BFAR will work with IMA to implement with funding from NOAA. If funded, the proposal would reimplement expanded random sampling of Manila-based exporters and expanded sampling and testing of fish sent into the laboratory from other locations. It would be staffed by both IMA and BFAR personnel.

You seem to imply that this is some kind of foreign attempt to tell BFAR what to do. This is not true. It would help correct a problem that you yourself admit exists (not enough aquarium fish being tested).

You also falsely implied that there was no "technology transfer". Actually, the proposal (that you seem to have read) proposes that the laboratory evaluate testing methods for detection of thiocyanate ion (SCN). A test procedure for SCN being evaluated at Iowa State University would be "transferred" and evaluated in the Manila CDT laboratory. Hence, the intent is to transfer a new test to the Philippines and to train Filipinos in its use. The method involves use of High Pressure Liquid Chromatography (HPLC). BFAR would loan the HPLC unit it purchased (and is not using) with funds from the Asian Development Bank. This is not a foreign NGO stealing anything. At the end of a year BFAR would have improved technical skills, a new laboratory, the HPLC and other equipment, and the new test procedure at its disposal. My only concern is that BFAR have these capabilities. The grant from NOAA requests $50,000 to cover operation costs (salaries, rent, electricity etc.). It can not cover the cost of the HPLC ($50,000 to purchase).

I do not get paid by IMA. My only motive in providing my time and expertise is to assist the Philippines to solve the cyanide problem; that is destroying your coral reefs, your fisheries, and creating poverty and starvation for Filipinos. I do agree that Filipinos need to manage their own resources. That is what the grant proposal is intended to help implement.

Peter Rubec
 

horge

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PeterIMA":1e1et4br said:
Horge, You display a knowledge of the inner workings of BFAR that could only come from having close contracts there. That is informative.

Any local marine environmentalist worth his salt would be familiar with BFAR's "inner workings" and would have close contacts --some friendly and many hostile. That's about as informative as it gets, and if you think there's more to glean from it, then you know less about local conditions and local environmentalism than the abysmal estimate I earlier held.

I for one have not seen the contract that IMA signed with BFAR. I still maintain that the work done by IMA for BFAR was well done (and I have the database to prove it). I will be speaking to the Director Atty. Malcolm Sarmeinto and will request clarification on some of the matters that you raised.

Ah, back to legitimate (if tangentially so) matters now?
Good. Clarification is always good to seek. Go and sort out your beef with them and chase th money you claim was stolen from you. In the meantime BFAR and local enviromentalists will keep on working the slow grind that I know is responsible for the undeniable improvement in reef health in many areas over the past decade and a half ---whatever the foreign, fundraising alarmists want donors to believe.

There is a proposal that I hope BFAR will work with IMA to implement with funding from NOAA. If funded, the proposal would reimplement expanded random sampling of Manila-based exporters and expanded sampling and testing of fish sent into the laboratory from other locations. It would be staffed by both IMA and BFAR personnel.

For me to respond to this would be premature.
By that, I mean I want to reply that the random sampling you describe is already in place ---but I want to be very, very sure I can vouch for what I will say.

I already have an idea of what the BFAR is practicing as opposed to what its own guidelines demand, but my next visit could not be be earlier than next week. I had intended to let the place relax before I come nosing around again, going behind the backs of designated talking heads and PR schmoozers.

You seem to imply that this is some kind of foreign attempt to tell BFAR what to do. This is not true. It would help correct a problem that you yourself admit exists (not enough aquarium fish being tested).

No... --What? ...foreign attempt to tell.... no, no.
Even I'm getting confuzled now.
That is another issue. My main beef is with how some organizations use the Philippines as a sorry poster child to scare up funding for their little rackets. Sorry you failed to pick up on that. Latin preamble syndrome you see: a tendency to start from the vague generality, circle towards the specific, then stop just short of it. Bad habit.

You also falsely implied that there was no "technology transfer".

Was? Or will be? Seriously, which transaction are we talking about now?
I transmitted BFAR lab staff's take on a proposed program ---though my assessment agrees with theirs. It was a faithful transmission of their opinion, so where's the falsehood?

You are one to talk of falsely implying things... yet again.

Actually, the proposal (that you seem to have read) proposes that the laboratory evaluate testing methods for detection of thiocyanate ion (SCN). A test procedure for SCN being evaluated at Iowa State University would be "transferred" and evaluated in the Manila CDT laboratory. Hence, the intent is to transfer a new test to the Philippines and to train Filipinos in its use. The method involves use of High Pressure Liquid Chromatography (HPLC). BFAR would loan the HPLC unit it purchased (and is not using) with funds from the Asian Development Bank. This is not a foreign NGO stealing anything. At the end of a year BFAR would have improved technical skills, a new laboratory, the HPLC and other equipment, and the new test procedure at its disposal. My only concern is that BFAR have these capabilities. The grant from NOAA requests $50,000 to cover operation costs (salaries, rent, electricity etc.). It can not cover the cost of the HPLC ($50,000 to purchase).

I didn't want to say it outright, but the HPLC unit in QC is being used.

I was being circumspect, not wanting to vouch prematurely for its use or even mention it specifically in my intial post (though I hinted at it: Did I not describe how CDT Lab staff gamely tried to explain it vis-a-vis what I initially described as "lower pressure" --that was meant as a dead layman's giveaway-- chromo junk I encountered back in the day?)

I wanted to get verification on how often it is used, next week, and why ISE was even trotted out in the discussion. Until I find out exactly how the field inspections fit in with sample collection and which tests are used for which situations (How all the available tests are employed and when)---which I promised Mary I'd try to determine next week-- I cannot say more than that the HPLC is being used ---I'm not 100% confident I can describe how often and for what situations.

Just so everyone understands, I understood that the HPLC gig in BFAR main was NOT bought with ADB grants but with a loan ---just like any real purchase of substance, you take out a loan to buy a house, a car, or a ritzy chroma unit. It s still a proper purchase. It was within BFAR's reach because of an "introductory price offer, if you like". the loan has to be paid back.

I do not get paid by IMA. My only motive in providing my time and expertise is to assist the Philippines to solve the cyanide problem; that is destroying your coral reefs, your fisheries, and creating poverty and starvation for Filipinos.

No offense, but you obviously have no idea what is really creating poverty and fisheries depletion here if you are going to state it like that. Coral reef damage via cyanide is a serious concern, but almost a trivial one compared to other threats to the Philippine marine environment.

Sorry if it makes fundraising vs. cyanide seem less important or urgent.
It really shouldn't, but it is simply true that cyanide is a mnor issue when you trot out the vast issue of fisheries depletion and how it ties in to poverty. Stick to CDT's or read up so you can at least not embarrass yourself when you move up to country-level fisheries issues.

I'll take your word for it when you say your motives have nothing to do with income.

Take my word for it when I repeat: if you keep bashing BFAR lab staff like you do, and then pushing yourself in the same breath as having all the solutions that happen to require funding, you will come off as actually chasing employment, income and relevance.


I do agree that Filipinos need to manage their own resources.

Your opinion on this matter is embarrassingly irrelevant.
Think about who you are and why I say that, and I really do say it dispassionately.

Now, passion:
I am not as patient and polite in the face of condescension, malicious or careless, as many of my countrymen, --much less when faced with baseless accusations of dishonesty.

You perist in deeply and personally offending Filipinos for no just cause, myself included, with your condescension and reckless accusations.

You display neither the integrity, decency or character to own up to making your clear mistakes in that regard, let alone apologize for any hurt you've caused.

That attitude belies your profession of concern for Filipinos.
I'm done with you.


--------------



Mary, Peter is so obviously Mr. Know-It-All, why don't you all ask him to pontificate on what I was supposed to check up on next week.
I've lost all appetite for it. Sorry.

John, I took your word for it and tried your 'new Forum'.
This is a waste of my time, and far worse. Sorry as well.

Sorry too, James.

My suggestion: outlaw reefing in the US, declare victory and keep hamsters. Or budgies. Stuffed toys maybe.
 

MaryHM

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Horge,

I already have Peter's opinion on the situation. I wanted yours. As someone who has never been to the Philippines to ask questions and make observations first hand, I am forced to rely on information from outside sources. I like to get as much information as I can to make sure I am making a realistic determination. Obviously you are under no obligation to me, but I would sincerely appreciate it if you would reconsider and ask the questions next week. If you prefer not to post them here, you can email the answers to me at [email protected]
 

mkirda

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MaryHM":20f88xo2 said:
Horge,

I already have Peter's opinion on the situation. I wanted yours. As someone who has never been to the Philippines to ask questions and make observations first hand, I am forced to rely on information from outside sources. I like to get as much information as I can to make sure I am making a realistic determination. Obviously you are under no obligation to me, but I would sincerely appreciate it if you would reconsider and ask the questions next week. If you prefer not to post them here, you can email the answers to me at [email protected]

Horge,

Ditto for me as well.

Frankly, the amount of misinformation (and disinformation) I have gotten from a whole array of sources is enough to make my stomach churn.
I've been told that those labs were all shut down, the equipment in storage, not in use due to lack of parts, or lack of funding. You can imagine my shock when I learned that it was still up and running. Nothing like going to the actual lab to see... Unfortunately, it is not like I can hop on a plane at will to go check it out.

When I get back there, Horge, I will be sure to seek you out. Not so much to take you up on your offer (enticing though it may be), but just to thank you personally for contributing so far.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

PeterIMA

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Horge, You are entitled to your opinions. If they also are the opinions of BFAR, I regret that I spent 20 years trying to help the Philippines. Obviously, persons from outside the Philippines don't have a monopoly on rudeness and arrogance. I have tried to present facts in an honest fashion and for you to imply otherwise is offensive to me.

Peter Rubec
 

mkirda

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mudslinger":zn28mvo2 said:
you're definitely wrong :lol:

Actually realized that later... Mudslinger = Vitz, not MHA...

MHA knows too much about the HK LRFF trade to be you.
MHA has to be someone in HK, either working for an NGO dealing with it, or is with the live reef food fish trade himself.

However, MHA and Mudslinger do have one thing in common...
Both are used for guerilla posting.

Welcome back, Vitz.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

Kalkbreath

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Horge, Is it your opinion that even though a good bit of testing is occurring of collected food fish ,this testing is having little impact as to the use of cyanide for seafood collection? If so, Is this not afine example of "testing is not the Answer" And lastly, do you still feel as I do that the only "workable answer .is to find a reef friendly substitute to Cyanide? {by the way , your quite impressive, not only do I beleive your not from the Philippines.........but that your not even from this earth..........You opine in a most heavinly manor :wink:
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horge

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I did not wish to leave on a negative note.
I'll part with you via dispassionate information (the verb, not the noun) and calmer opinion, here, from ground zero.



BFAR and back doors
Lest you all get the wrong impression, I still do not trust BFAR,
though it was a salve to bitter wounds, finding ethical, principled professionals running the lab at Main. Whatever their opinions, their laudable attitudes or their resentments, those are theirs and may or may not be reflected as you move up BFAR hierarchy. I don't trust BFAR entirely. So long as the political appointees are compromisable (often, what else can they be?), there will be the potential for trouble, though compromise isn't always a bad thing.

For trivia's sake... I have never worked for BFAR.

I certainly do not trust the DENR, which is a political minefield.
I never had the stomach for government work, though I am proud of my parents for having served long in the judicial branch of government. Familiarity with the government has bred contempt, in my case.


Equipment, Testing Methods, and Doubted Proposals
The HPL Chroma unit is apparently seeing use (unless they were just taking it out for a non-performing spin that afternoon, and I read too much "usage" into what I saw), but I cannot be sure how, or how often. If, as Peter Rubec may be indicating, they have no proper SOP to use with the hardware (which would be a rather strange situation --why drop serious copper for a machine without the task-specific instructions included, no?) then I too would agree that any BFAR opposition to trying new SCN-test procedures is strange. I have to think they have an SOP in their possession for the HPL Chroma unit, else, the machine would have been mothballed for safety, no?

There are two separate proposals/thrusts being argued over in the thread above:

One has IMA coming in to 'reinstitute' an old schedule of testing and inspection, stricter than what IMA claims they remembered the BFAR implementing. This is the one BFAR lab staff are leery of. I got the impression that this is because,

a) the exisiting schedule is now tighter than the laxity IMA remembers. I dunno for sure, but if so, the proposal may simply be unnecessary.

b) IMA and BFAR have serious differences to thresh out, and there is apparently no little mistrust and misunderstanding to cut through. I'm hoping they can settle their imagined and real differences.

A separate thrust revolves on bringing in new SOP's for the HPL Chroma unit at BFAR main. Certainly, BFAR gets no new equipment under the proposal---they already bought such equipment prior, no? They don't get a physical 'new lab': they really get a new procedure ---though in truth, with a better SOP, the lab might as well have been radically renewed. I was only allowed a quick skim through what was said to be the proposal, and I thought I saw some serious sticking points, but I suppose BFAR can point those out for itself.


Testing Methods, Sample Collection Procedures, and More
Mary... I had to get this by phone, for safety.
I would have been more confident of a face-to-face Q&A, but....

Colorimetric tests are used in the field by BFAR inspectors or their deputies, and if something stinks, a tissue sample is then collected by BFAR themselves and sent securely to the nearest BFAR lab pronto. ISE is certainly used at that point.

I suspect (read: guess) that the HPL is used when a sample sort-of clears ISE but still looks funny ---though it would be a serious extra bother to send an iffy sample from, say, Tacloban all the way here to Quezon City, Metro Manila for HPL vetting.

There is no way to verify this at this point, because someone out there has already raised a flag as to my possible identity, and I am once again a hot, if fuzzy target. Whoever you are, I know you are reading this, or you would not have acted s you did. You missed badly, but what you did was deadly dangerous. Back off now, please.
This is human life you are playing with.


To continue...
BFAR alone collects suspect samples and sends them securely to the nearest BFAR lab for further vetting. The perception of lax collection procedure likely stems from the very many, separate, voluntary submissions for God-knows-what purposes. So yes, Mary, lots of mostly-foodfish wholesalers do send in samples, but this doesn't buy them a clean bill of health (except maybe from HK/Taiwan importers who want some BFAR paper to wave around to HK/Taiwan authorities who couldn't care less ...I don't know).

If any target passes the field 'paper test', it's still due for regular tissue sample collection --and this is where we have a problem. I do not know how regularly this sort of ISE-based audit is supposed to take place, nor if it is being done at all. So many targets are newly relocated or set up, so I just don't know. Otherwise, the paper test ringing the alarm bells is chiefly when BFAR up and forcibly takes tissue for lab work.

All suspect tissue has to be collected by BFAR or its deputies. Practically ANYONE can have fish tissue tested at a BFAR lab, so long as they ask nicely, pay a P250 fee, and not try it when the lab is closed for holidays or other emergencies. suspect ther Bataan grouper was the result of a paper-test alarm. Paul Holthus' (sorry for my colorful language, I was very tired, Paul) submissions were most probably voluntary and private.

My take on Collection Procedures
Kalk, just to be clear, I am NOT in favor of clove oil capture, or ANY form of capture other than net-caught. Clove oil is carcinogenic as hell, in case you don't know, and I never suggested it.

I wouldn't FAVOR it, but if a cheap, reef-safe substitute can be found, I would TOLERATE it. If it can be found, maybe the wealthier environmentalist organizations can drop some copper towards its identification and evaluation. That is ALL my last lengthy thread was saying.

I disagree that I have to have a seriously-promising candidate in hand before I ask if a seriously-promising candidate exists ---that would be nonsensical. The thread was an appeal to both clear thinking and to initiating a search for a possible, practical reef-safe soporific/anaesthetic, both for use in capture and sedation in-transit. It presumed you fine folk on this Forum might know bits and pieces that we could synergize into realistic potential, if we opened the issue for serious discussion.

It was, as you(?) put it, a request for study on a Plan B.
It was certainly not a summary derogation of Plan A, which is the netcaught movement --I would hardly try to torpedo something I have been brine-deep in for 30 years. Always good to have a backup ---and to my thinking you cannot effectively sedate fishes in-transit with a net ;)


My Impression of all your Efforts
Stop pissing on each other and cooperate.
Sometimes, you organizations all seem to be quarrelling over pieces of a pie ---who gets to do this, or who gets to do that. Stop it. It's not your pie to eat, nor is it your oven, kitchen, house, city, or country to be garrulous over who gets the bigger slice.

IMA has proven experience and local representation, though (and I say this as helpful criticism) --there sometimes remains a disconnect between hard technical procedure and real-world, political/practical workability when they propose things.

IMA, if you would consider it please, get more assets familiar with Philippine political arcana to advise you so that CDT SOP's (results and interpretation, particularly) and result wording are effectively and easily usable by the law and enforcement arm of the Philippine government. Take this as a call for you to perfect your game, IMA. Your positive contributions are deeply appreciated, so don't think criticism of any mishandling on your part is a blanket diss.

MAC? MAC is an untested quantity.
Not a diss. It's simply the truth.
We want you to succeed, so listen when others point out the massive holes in your defense. (Sorry, I'm Filipino, so there HAS to be a basketball reference somewhere). You've got good shooting hands (building trust) but ZERO rebounding ability (when you might get duped).

I really do not think MAC can succeed without IMA riding shotgun.
This is overlong, and less than halfway done, so I'll use a crude analogy:
Where MAC can create a friendly, socially-calming local police presence,
IMA seems better capable of creating local SWAT and "CSI" support. Though IMA has too many PAST friendly-fire incidents to its discredit, it is the 'friendly' part that shold be emhasized.


Both desperately-needed functions reassuring police presence, and intimidating police presence, will eventually evolve locally without outside help, but why would we turn down outside help that can accelerate the process? You want to help, you're welcome to come in... but remember you're in OUR house.

Arguing over who gets to do what..
The task is too big for ALL of you put together,
and you wanna argue over who gets to do what???
Insanity.


The Importance, and Failure of CDT's
It is absolutely correct that three weeks on and possibly more, you can still ID a cyanide-captured fish.

Nevertheles, I am --I tell you-- absolutely correct that within 24++ hours, with skill on the part of the cyanide-squirter and the wholesaler, one can cheat colorimetic and ISE tests under the current SOP.

What's wrong with this picture?
That .2ppm and over being the "POSITIVE" range.
Still there but less than .2ppm is usually trace (else zero).

Nothing wrong with that, except society outside of BFAR places a lot more emphasis on the word POSITIVE. Anything less means reasonable doubt.
To prosecute without undue interference from political patrons, proof rather than evidence is required. Trace presence is too easily excused as unrelated anthropogenic contamination. The ISE SOP could have been worded with better advice from someone familiar with real-world experience on its prosecutorial usability in the Philippines.

Trust me, I was raised by a lawyer and a judge. Choice of words can scuttle a solid case, or win one that is otherwise sunk.

HPL Chroma is nice, but with only one machine available, I mean, come on... all the cheaters have to do is intentionally flood the lab with work and use the mounting backlog to their profit. I think a better-worded SOP to fit the ISE equipment already in place is a quick patch until we can afford better equipment in numbers that matter.


Cyanide, The Ornamental Marine Trade, and Proper Perspective
In my experienced estimate, the cyanide problem in the Philippines is mostly a food-fish issue. At least 80% of fis cyanided are food fish on almost any given month.

By my own rough estimate again, all cyanide fishing in the Philippines amounts to less than .003% of all harmful fishing practices in terms of fish. Blast fishing is a larger problem, but the bulk of it is plain overfishing usng presently-legal means. You do the math and tell me what percentage of of the problem cyanide capture of ORNAMENTALS constitutes.

Blast fishing arguably hurts fish stocks more than cyanide on an episode by episode basis, if you measure the colateral damage. Yes, corals remain fragmented but viable after a blast, but sand-scour and tumbling erosion often puts paid to that excuse.

If you abandon general fisheries and trot out coral reef health, I have anthropogenic pollution and rampant coastal overdevelopment to diute the volume-impact of cyanide.

That's all something to keep in mind so we don't come off as alarmists, overstating the cyanide issue. No need to falsely overstate the case,

because this isn't a numbers issue.

Child porn ought to be a source of outrage even if it affects just .000001% of the population, yes?
Cyanide fishing is so obscene that it shouldn't require proportionately-massive (ab)use before we get mad.

But PLEASE, don't direct that anger at each other.
Most of the disputes on this Forum are over a question of local (and I mean the Philippines) fact. Most of you just don't know what is truth or fact here at ground zero. Period.

I live here, and have the benefit of associates with similar concerns and abilities/access, comparing notes over three decades of activism. Still, I think I have only had maybe 40% of the picture accurate at best. The rest? If I surely knew and could prove some of those things, I could probably blackmail my way into some serious (and seriously lucrative) public office via any of the parties... or not.
;)




What I Have Tried To Do
Again...
I think none of you have sufficient eyes and ears (even IMA, and especially since the wrinkle with BFAR and others) to settle your arguments over fact.

I have tried to fill in some of that gap in the hope that with that source of dispute removed, you can work better together. With my contacts and experience I thought I could clarify some matters with some confidence.

While we're at it, any truly-effective and relevant local environmental group in the Philippines HAS to remain at least in part, a cipher or a compromised accessory, otherwise it ususally comes to serious harm. The groups I respect the most are like us ---largely unidentified, asking for no outside assistance, and leaving those we help with confidence that Filipinos can get things done for their countrymen, rather than this puppy-to-master dependency that foreign organizations can perpetuate.

Ignorance of ground-zero fact aside...
The remainer of disputes here are personal.

I have never accused anyone of lying, though I will point out a clear error of fact, and seek clarification on a suspected one, without hesitation.
Thus, any unfounded suggestion of dishonesty on my part is unacceptable.
Belittling the intelligence and literacy of the average Filipino is worse.

The cyanide problem cannot be solved by even the strictest laws, best technology and most careful monitoring unless you know how to relate with and earn the friendship and trust of the Filipinos who own and use these resources.

Peter Rubec is technically knowledgeable, and that knowledge ought to be put to the best possible use.

I am not aware that anyone from the Philippines has accused him of intentionally misrepresenting fact, though he is only human and does above inflate the impact cyanide has on the totality of fisheries issues in the Philippines with something that sounds too much like boilerplate fundraising alarmism; and remains unclear on several points I have raised above (the ISE SOP of .2ppm being or not being 'scientifically founded'; vouching fo IMA's proper performance under contract without having read said contract, etc.. those sort of little wrinkles). To not contest what I perceive as his factual errors and/or non-clarity would be a disservice to the issue, my country, to you, and really --to Peter himself.
That is all about fair dissection of claims on fact.

Personal issues are another thing.
That he refuses to apologize for, nor even acknowledge having offending me and my countrymen is the real beef I have against him.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Offense --at least where courtesy reigns-- is reckoned in the eye of the offended. Earnestly simple apology, or at the very least, expressed concern for hurt one has caused to another, should never be deemed beneath one's pride or station --it is the humble measure of compassionate humanity. Anything else is a demand that all others conform to one's personal 'rules of engagement', and disregard for how other people feel.

If you feel I am accusing you of dishonesty, Peter, then I earnestly apologize for the misunderstanding and your hurt. Unclear wording on my part, likely. I really only accuse you of hurtful insensitivity, which is more counterproductive than you seem to realize.


Good luck to MAC, IMA and all eco-activists with your worthy endeavours.
Triumph ....or fail.... as you must, but always, always,
with the highest value placed on Truth, Hope, Humility

...and Compasionate Humanity.




Horge Cortes Jorge Jr.
Philippines
 

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