Retailers: MAC Certification?

[Anonymous]

Many of you who frequent this forum who are retailers have been quite outspoken about your feelings regarding MAC and MAC certification.

What will it take from MAC in order for you to consider becoming certified?

Have they completely lost all chances as far as you are concerned (ie you wouldn't consider it ever under any circumstances, no matter what happens or changes)

Would you consider ordering from an LA wholesaler if they became MAC certified and the variety was there? Would you order from a wholesaler if they carried only MAC certified fish?

What needs to change in order for the MAC certification label to mean anything to you?

As a retailer, I don't see any reason to rush into getting certified for a few reasons. First, I don't see how it makes any business sense at this point for me to adopt an entirely different methodology as far as running my shop for the few amount of species that are currently MAC certified. Second, I don't see a reason to get certified as long as I can buy certified fish from a certified wholesaler and sell them as uncertified, because the MAC label doesn't mean anything to my customers. I'm simply looking for healthy fish to build my reputation on. Third, the quality of the MAC certified fish hasn't been high enough yet, to warrant the added cost of the certification and subsequent hoops to jump through. Fourth, without a actual CDT test put in place...........

What would need to happen for me to consider it? More variety coming from more locations, at a higher quality than I've currently seen, with a CDT put in place, and documentation to back up what they claim.

My gut feeling tells me that it would work better as a for profit company selling a "brand" of net caught fish. But that would only work through a few other for profits selling the same thing and keeping each other honest through Industry regulated testing, with each one striving to become the premier net caught "brand" with the highest quality and variety. It's going to take a lot of marketing to make any of thise important to the consumer, and I don't see how this can be accomplished with money being involved.

 

[Anonymous]

It's going to take a lot of marketing to make any of this important to the consumer, and I don't see how this can be accomplished with money being involved.

...and there it is. Again, greed and money rule this roost, and nothing will ever be changed as long as money is paramount.

Peace,

Chip

 

[Anonymous]

Ya know we were willing to be come certified...until MAC's operational strategies came to light. I need to see more logic in their operations before I'm willing to make the investment. The problem seems to be that MAC is operating as an entity where money is granted and NOT earned. BIG DIFFERENCE. Especially when your entire existance revolves around business. I need to see clearer goals defined and those goals met and those goals need to appear logical to me. Only then would I consider the INVESTMENT of getting certified.

Yes it is about money. I run Inland Reef Aquaria, LLC, a business. Not Inland Reef Aquaria Benevolent Society. We are, we must, be very careful about what products, services we invest our money in. You don't stay in business by buying into every sales pitch that crosses your threshold.

 

[JeremyR]

I feel pretty much the same.. I think right now they are full of holes.. if they fixed the holes.. I'd probably buy the fish. I wouldn't become certified unless my customers actually cared (they don't) because I don't see any reason to have to pay for a quality stamp of approval when I"m already well above said quality level on a voluntary basis.

 

[JennM]

I feel pretty much the same.. I think right now they are full of holes.. if they fixed the holes.. I'd probably buy the fish. I wouldn't become certified unless my customers actually cared (they don't) because I don't see any reason to have to pay for a quality stamp of approval when I"m already well above said quality level on a voluntary basis.

Amen.

 

[jamesw]

My company is one of the most respected and highest quality engineering firms in Houston - and we have been operating for over 10 years without ISO 9000 certification.

But this year we are getting certified.

Why? Why now? Because our cleints demand it.

That is when MAC's certification process will really kick in - when the customers demand it.

Cheers
James

 

[JeremyR]

James,

That will never happen. When has the hobbyist ever demanded quality from their retailers? Why are big chains with horrible fish expanding and making more money than ever?

 

[jamesw]

I agree with you Jeremy. It the classic capitalistic struggle between $$$ and environmental impact. The $$$ wins every time.

Unfortunately, sometimes the only way to protect the environment from business is regulation. I suppose that's pretty much where we got the Clean Water Act and the Endangered Species Act.

Too bad it takes something like "Save the Whales" to bring that about though...

Cheers
James

 

[Anonymous]

But James you left out an important point.

Your company would have certified much sooner if it had been more profitable. Regardless of the clients. MAC's customers are not *consumers*, their real customer is the LFS. When it becomes more profitable for a retailer to get certified, then and only then will MAC succeed. It seems as though MAC thinks they can go straight to the end of the chain, and straight to the beginning and ignore the middle. As soon as Joe Bloe store owner thinks that he can make more money by becoming certified, he'll get it done. The hobbyist sector is way to diverse and unorganized to ever expect any kind of uniform demands from them. Without a *serious* marketing campaign.

 

[JeremyR]

I thought we had pretty well established that regulating the hobby would have no real environmental impact as cyanide use for food fish is still going to happen. Maybe if they just enforced laws that already existed.. maybe if everyone would just do the right thing we could live in a perfect world...

 

[John_Brandt]

Ya know we were willing to be come certified...until MAC's operational strategies came to light. I need to see more logic in their operations before I'm willing to make the investment. The problem seems to be that MAC is operating as an entity where money is granted and NOT earned. BIG DIFFERENCE. Especially when your entire existance revolves around business. I need to see clearer goals defined and those goals met and those goals need to appear logical to me. Only then would I consider the INVESTMENT of getting certified.

Yes it is about money. I run Inland Reef Aquaria, LLC, a business. Not Inland Reef Aquaria Benevolent Society. We are, we must, be very careful about what products, services we invest our money in. You don't stay in business by buying into every sales pitch that crosses your threshold.

JeremyR wrote:
I feel pretty much the same.. I think right now they are full of holes.. if they fixed the holes.. I'd probably buy the fish. I wouldn't become certified unless my customers actually cared (they don't) because I don't see any reason to have to pay for a quality stamp of approval when I"m already well above said quality level on a voluntary basis.

Tom & Jeremy,

Both of your comments are fair and respectable. MAC needs to address your concerns while keeping its own set of goals and agendas in motion. Progress has been slower than most would like, including MAC itself. There were, and still are, significant obstacles to fixing things in the Philippines. MAC is an international organization with plans extending far beyond the Philippines and Southeast Asia. It is no secret now that Fiji is on the table.

When people like yourselves engage in civil constructive criticisms of MAC, they pay close attention. It's also no secret that MAC does 'get things done'. The present and near-future accomplishments concerning CDT in the Philippines is majorly significant. Many MAC detractors here have unfortunately brushed this event off as if it were meaningless. Some people will never be happy with anything.

The issue of demand for MAC Certification and MAC Certified animals is important. At present, you cannot see a good incentive to be Certified. It costs you money and effort and you need a return on that. MAC does offer the knowledge that these animals were collected non-destructively. But that alone may not yet be enough for you. Presently, there are 4 MAC Certified Retailers. These stores are having nothing but great things to say about the quality of these fish. I keep hearing about zero mortality. I also keep hearing "We want more fish!" This is coming. There will be some exciting new variety coming from Camotes Island, as well as more of some of the same species coming from existing MAC Certified areas. This is necessary, as you will see a significant increase in the number of MAC Certified importer/wholesaler/retailers within the next year.

 

[JennM]

When people like yourselves engage in civil constructive criticisms of MAC, they pay close attention. It's also no secret that MAC does 'get things done'. The present and near-future accomplishments concerning CDT in the Philippines is majorly significant. Many MAC detractors here have unfortunately brushed this event off as if it were meaningless. Some people will never be happy with anything.

I've seen plenty of civil and constructive criticisms from everyone here, but some of the good people at MAC have decided to tune out some of us...

As to "being happy", I'll be ecstatic when the long-overdue CDT is implemented but forgive me for not holding my breath until it's up and running and results are flowing in. It's fine and dandy that it's somebody else's fault at this time, that it's not up and running, nevermind the fact that it should have been in place and the kinks worked out BEFORE certifications began :roll: I'll be happy with that when it happens, but then it will be time to focus on the next wart I know we're a thorn in MAC's side, but hey, if it brings attention to the issues and forces them to be dealt with, I can live with that.

Remember, we all want the same ends, we just don't always agree on the means.

Jenn

 

[John_Brandt]

When people like yourselves engage in civil constructive criticisms of MAC, they pay close attention. It's also no secret that MAC does 'get things done'. The present and near-future accomplishments concerning CDT in the Philippines is majorly significant. Many MAC detractors here have unfortunately brushed this event off as if it were meaningless. Some people will never be happy with anything.

I've seen plenty of civil and constructive criticisms from everyone here, but some of the good people at MAC have decided to tune out some of us...

As to "being happy", I'll be ecstatic when the long-overdue CDT is implemented but forgive me for not holding my breath until it's up and running and results are flowing in. It's fine and dandy that it's somebody else's fault at this time, that it's not up and running, nevermind the fact that it should have been in place and the kinks worked out BEFORE certifications began :roll: I'll be happy with that when it happens, but then it will be time to focus on the next wart I know we're a thorn in MAC's side, but hey, if it brings attention to the issues and forces them to be dealt with, I can live with that.

Remember, we all want the same ends, we just don't always agree on the means.

Jenn

I agree with you almost entirely. I will strongly disagree that all critics here are civil. Some are outright malicious and hostile. The criticism that MAC actually tells exporters to mix fish is false and malicious. MAC has zero patience for that sort of thing. Another example is folks saying that MAC deprives fishers of netting. These sorts of things are the only real thorns, so to speak.

 

[Anonymous]

The criticism that MAC actually tells exporters to mix fish is false and malicious.

John,

I've been following all the threads in here right along, and I can't remember where it was actually stated that MAC gives orders to exporters on mixing fish.

I know it was said that when MAC is supplying fish to exporters that also deal in supposed 'cyanide' fish, that the possibility of mixing is there and unpoliced by MAC, but I never saw it as an outright accusation of MAC telling exporters to mix fish.

Can you let me know where that quote is? I probably missed something that I should have read, and it's important that I know for my own forming of opinions...

Thanks.

Peace,

Chip

 

[JennM]

I agree with you almost entirely. I will strongly disagree that all critics here are civil. Some are outright malicious and hostile. The criticism that MAC actually tells exporters to mix fish is false and malicious. MAC has zero patience for that sort of thing. Another example is folks saying that MAC deprives fishers of netting. These sorts of things are the only real thorns, so to speak.

Well I will let the person whom you are quoting totally out of context have a go at you for that However, I will say that I have read those "same" posts that you refer to and seen them in what I believe is the right context.

That is to say that certified exporters, importers and retailers may carry BOTH "certified" fishes, AND Cyanide caught fishes in the same FACILITY. Nobody here specified that the actual TANKS contained "mixed" fishes, and I really have a hard time believing that the intelligent people here would have read that any other way. I DO contend that with the "availability" of non-certified fishes, the TEMPTATION exists when certified organisms die, to clandestinely replace them with non-certified organisms to avoid decertification and extra paperwork and holding time, but that is an aside issue and not what we are talking about here.

As for "netting deprivation" I didn't see the comments as "taking away" of netting, but rather, training without an ample supply of netting for the divers. If this is wrong, and there is sufficient netting available through MAC to all who need it, then why are there 2 or 3 independent netting funds getting the stuff through? Why is there a NEED for private companies or individiuals or organizations to fundraise for this stuff, with the mega bucks that MAC has at its disposal, can't $6000 or so (twice what Mary raised), be earmarked for netting, and why isn't there a glut of the stuff in PI?

It seems to me that some folks have decided to take honest criticisms PERSONALLY and are letting that cloud their judgement on how to act on those criticisms. Words from the "same old hostile" detractors are repeatedly ignored, but the same sorts of comments from NEW posters are welcomed with open arms. Why is that? There is no room for ego in objectivity. Either the criticism is valid, or it's not. If it isn't, state the facts that invalidate the criticism and move on. If it IS valid, take notice and just do what needs to be done to make it right. Simple.

Jenn

 

[John_Brandt]

MaryHM
{squat}


Joined: 02 Dec 1999
Posts: 1295
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2003 9:39 am Post subject: What's the point of striving to be 100% net caught?

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We had a clown trigger discussion in some previous thread, where dizzy said he's seen baby clown triggers wholesaling for $11.99. Marivi actually has 5 tiny clown triggers on her list this week. $15 each+freight. So say I land a net caught baby trigger for around $18. I'd have to sell it for at least $30- OVER TWICE THE AMOUNT OF MY COMPETITIORS. The PTFEA exporter that I use for fill has baby clown triggers for $7.50. HALF PRICE. I could land those for about $10. Do you have any idea how tempting it is??? Any idea at all?? When my retail customers ask me for these fish that I NEVER have and I tell them, "Sorry, I only buy net caught and I can't get it." or "Yeah, I can get it net caught but it will cost you 30% more than wholesaler ABC." what do you think their response is? They take their fish order to wholesaler ABC. Sometimes I wonder what the point is to even running our fish system anymore. I can name two retailers that care about what we do and support us. The vast majority who support us don't care. Lots more say they care, but don't support us. But they would support us if we could give them everything the big boys do. So what am I to do? Honestly, what's the point of trying to be net caught if no one cares?? What's the point of me paying more for fish that no one wants to buy? I am the tiniest guppy in the LA wholesale pond. So seriously, what impact can I even have?

The "organization" that is supposed to be all about net caught fish and well managed reefs even sells out- they certify companies and tell them they can still mix in cyanide fish. All of these people want to tell me what I should/shouldn't do, how much I should pay for fish, what organization I should support....and you know the funny thing?? They are people who aren't in the industry or "industry" people who can't even support the very organizations they run around touting the virtues of. If they had to do what I do- try to make a living off of net caught- they'd change their tunes. So bottom line...why shouldn't I sell out like everyone else?

Signed,
Frustrated.
_________________
An Educated Hobbyist Demands an Ethical and Sustainble Industry www.reefsource.com

 

[JeremyR]

John,

Tells TO and tells they CAN are different phrases. You may still have a beef with the comment, but it is different.

 

[John_Brandt]

The statement directly implies that MAC Staff said the following phrase, or something like it...

"You can mix non-MAC Certified fish with MAC Certified if it pleases you."

 

[JennM]

Is that incorrect John? Does MAC certification preclude the choice of a facility to also carry cyanide caught fish, or non-certified fish? Or are you just choosing to twist her words around to you own benefit?

Because if it IS incorrect, then the wholesaler who sends me stock lists each week is breaking the rules because they have only a FEW certified fish and lots and lots of non-certified fish, and I'd be willing to bet that some of them would flunk that CDT...

If you really really want to argue semantics, and just to add one more thorn in your side, UNTIL MAC has a CDT in place and is doing spot checks, even MAC can't guarantee a Cyanide free fish

Please, John, this spin-doctoring and twisting of words is really beneath everybody's dignity. You can come up with a stronger argument than this, can't you?

Jenn

 

[JennM]

The statement directly implies that MAC Staff said the following phrase, or something like it...

"You can mix non-MAC Certified fish with MAC Certified if it pleases you."

Is that the best you can do, John? :roll:

Anybody who has read the MAC protocol knows that "batches" of certified fishes have to be kept separate from other fishes. We're all clever enough to know that one fish looks like another, so the ONLY logical way to keep a "certified" fish separate from the same species of non-certified is to keep them in a separate tank. However, they can share a system, share a facility.... do you really think that little of readers that they would jump to that conclusion?

You're grasping at straws to try and discredit and distract again.

Jenn