NGO cyanide reform vs. non-NGO reform

[Jaime Baquero]

Moderators note: This thread was split from "What's the point of striving to be 100% net caught?"


Jeremy,

It is good to know that Cortez Marine and Mary are sending you superb orders of fish. The ones coming from the Philippines were collected by fishers trained by NGOs' programs in the Philippines. Great to see that those good fisherfolks are helping you to offer good net caught fish to your customers.

More good fish will come to the system thanks to the efforts of many honest people and the support of responsible dealers that like you are contributing to find solutions to the problem.

Thanks for sharing that information with all the readers.

Regards

Jaime

 

[clarionreef]

Jaime,
Why bait me to expose and reveal more about the shocking track record of incompetence, scandal and failure that has typified training programs over the past 10 years?
Compared to what competent training programs could have done we are getting 10% if that of what was intended.
That is not good news. It was a terrific squandering of potential, resources and good will.
I can leave it at that and agree to move on...but you insist on claiming victory where there was none.
Marivi, Mary and us are victims of chronic non- performance and 'token' performance and have hoped for and depended on better for too long. Relying on this NGO sponsored activity you refer to run netcaught business has been the kiss of death and has hurt us very badly!
"Selling out" and mixing the poor variety netcaught produce with cyanide fish to get saleable variety, like everyone else was the subject of Marys thread here.
Sales are terrible for us and we need different formulas to survive. Other countries, other niches. 100% Netcaught only Philippine fish is not very popular as all our friends and 'supporters' who can't buy from us will attest. They can't buy from us, or can't buy much, for all the reasons we have heard here in the past few days.
Mary...can you help me explain it better? I'm clearly not gettin thru.
Sincerely, Steve

 

[Jaime Baquero]

To all,


Would be good to know the opinion of large importers about fish quality. So far I have read the opinion of some small retailers and a few small importers. I had the opportunity to talk to large importers in the US who have been dealing for decades with exporters in the Philipppines. They have said that quality has improved in the last 5 years. Those individuals are really experts in this business.

A medium size importer in Toronto has been dealing with the Philippines for over 4 years, he has been getting his fish from exporters supporting the net training programs developed by NGOs. He is getting good shipments. This person is a professional in his field , he is a very good aquarium room manager. His knowledge about water quality management, control of disease and fish husbandry in general have helped him to keep mortality rates very low. He has a good operation going on. His business is in good shape not only because he is getting good quality net caught fish but also because he is an "expert" in his field. I am sure there are more people like Chris.

Jaime

 

[clarionreef]

Hello all,
Most of the training activity has taken place in a just three places. Zambales, Coron and to a lesser degree, Buhol.
Most of the fish supply of the country does not come from there... and very little of the good variety needed to sell this 'movement' comes from there.
Hard to imagine "industry changing success" based on such modest coverage.
Steve



.

 

[clarionreef]

Judy,
Encouragement and support from you and just about 15 other dealers can form the core of survival from an ethics driven dealer.
We are accustomed to hearing about good intentions, sustainability and higher philiosophy from non commercial entities who most certainly do not know what it entails to run a store or a wharehouse day to day.
It is to be sure, easier said then done.
Its nice for every one to tell you to stay the course and not 'sell out', but what one really needs are sales.
"Supporters" who won't put their money where their mouth is are currently worth a nickel on the dollar.
98% of my sales come from non believers that are oblivious to AMDA and reefs.org and hope to make money on the fish and have a good weekend. Price and variety drive the enterprise and provide the luxury for me to try and do the right thing FOR MY OWN REASONS.

I have frankly found it more effective to make sales based on everything but eco-talk while at the same time, doing the right thing...in secret.
Of course, when you do hook up with a customer based on the environmental ethic, its a bonus.
I think the failure of the environmental approach on our industry is on account of non commercials doing all the 'pushing' based on their own untried, un proven dogma. Stores don't want the guilt trip, they want a fat bellied bicolor or a blue tang at a "good price".
We need to get em that if we can without all the chatter. Wholesale dealers can't market the chatter so much as the fish.
NGOs need to understand this. Thats why we need for net training to get the product to go with the hype.
Founding and then failing to get on the same page about this with non profit groups has been frustrating as can be. They proceed based on the goodness of their mission statements and not in the provision of the product that would win converts.
Enlightened free enterprise can train a hundreds of men quickly and in uncompromising fashion if such an enterprise could be formed.
Investors and capital are raised every day for donut shops, dry cleaners and pet stores. Perhaps finally there is enough of a market acceptance for such a business.
What do ya think?
Steve, Cortez Marine

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Steve,

Credibility is the main question here. You and other individuals, who did nothing during the last 12 years to find solutions to the problem in the Philippines, came to the picture blaming NGOs for not solving the problem created by the same industry you have been part for decades.

In your case, you disappeared knowing that the situation was that bad. 12 years Steve. OVI was working more directly on this issue, with small grants from CIDA, during many years. I didn't see you around trying to help. You disappeared..

I find that you ARE NOT saying things the way you should. You are not saying that results would be better today if honest NGOs had had the support from the industry.

Were did you get that 10% of what was intended?

Better to stop blackmailing me about the 10 years you mentioned. Do not forget you were NOT there.

Instead of doing that, better to explaing to the readers about the program you plan to develop in the Philippines. 60K /1000collectors/year? Would be good to know about community organizing prior to training as well as follow up after training, among other important aspects. How much is going to cost to prepare, train and follow up a trained collector? It would be more productive and you could get more supporters..... of course ...if convinced.


Jaime

 

[clarionreef]

Jaime,

Resigned. I resigned from the 'action' you glorify.
Steve

 

[PeterIMA]

Steve, I assume that when you state that most of the trainings were in three provinces (Zambales, Bohol, and Coron (Busuanga) you are referring to the MAC Feasability Study and CAMP trainings. The IMA trainings of 620 collectors were located in the provinces of Bohol, Cebu, Negros Oriental, Eastern Samar, and Davao del Sur (villages and municipalities listed in my Net-Caught Cyanide-Free paper). Other trainings were held in Tawi Tawi (Sulu Archipelago), and in Busuanga (see the paper Net-Training to CAMPs by Rubec and Cruz)


The IMA operated in many of the areas that you profess have not received net training. Ferdinand is now able to go to these areas and work with collectors previously trained by himself through IMA. So, while there is a need for more net-training/community organizing in the southern Philippines, there are collectors to work with from previous trainings.

Ferdinand told me that his costs are minimal since he can go to these sites, and the collectors house and feed him (for free). In return they now are being linked to the exporters willing to pay a fair (higher) price for net-caught fish. The result is more variety of fish species that are net-caught sought by the trade and hobby. This is what the nets sent to Mary Middlebrook and Mike Kirda are now supporting.


Peter Rubec

 

[Anonymous]

Its nice for every one to tell you to stay the course and not 'sell out', but what one really needs are sales.
"Supporters" who won't put their money where their mouth is are currently worth a nickel on the dollar.

Steve - my fish room as been closed for 6 months while we move and I asked everybody I deal with to stop the flood of faxes until I have a reason to read them - so I may not be very current. However You ***** about lack of sales - I ***** about lack of product. I would try like hell to get net caught and most of the times the availabilty was pretty piss poor especially at the start - Mary's list fleshed out quite nicely but I was already buying corals from her, so at the beginning it was easy to add the 3 or 4 species I wanted off her list to my coral orders. If all she had was fish and no live coral though, it simply isn't worth the trouble to make an order for 25 fish, the freight would be ridiculous. I think my more recent orders from MSI were almost entirely fish or a significant portion thereof.

 

[clarionreef]

Interesting,
The market confirms the obvious...not enough variety to take any netcaught only dealer seriously.
Some groups with long "training" history claim significant achievement.
What gives?
Steve

 

[clarionreef]

Interesting...
It is interesting that the most WORTHWHILE achievements in training have come about in the past 6 months AFTER THE RESIGNATION OF FERDIE CRUZ from both MAC and the IMA.
IS THERE SOMETHING ABOUT BEING FREE OF THESE ORGANIZATIONS THAT ALLOWS THIS TO HAPPEN?
STILL, THE MARKET FINDS VERY LITTLE INCENTIVE TO SUPPORT ALL NETCAUGHT DEALERS FOR THE PROFOUND LACK OF VARIETY GENERATED AFTER ALL THESE YEARS.
AND THAT HAS BEEN THE SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD.
I have no doubt that Ferdies progress will continue, but it is thus far a freelance, not an NGO affair...and after all these years...he finally actually has the nets to go with the trainings!
Free of past management we suddenly seem to have a rapid increase in progress. Finally, this is getting interesting!
Sincerely, Steve

 

[Jaime Baquero]

To all the readers,

Steve Robinson keeps misinforming and misleading the readers. A concrete example of this can be found in Peter Rubec's explanaiton to S. Robinson about sites where training has taken place. Peter Rubec has been constant in his honest fight against cyanide use and coral reef destruction in the Philippines since 1987. P. Rubec knows very well the situation in the Philippines.

S. Robinson was there for a while but dissapeared for a very long period of time, over a decade.

Please note that S. Robinson is not answering direct question. Robinson's only goals are to discredit NGOs and undermine efforts of honest people who are trying to find solutions to the problem.

There are many aspects readers should know about the behind the scene activities taking place. You'll be amazed. All these related to the credibility
issue.

Thanks for taking the time to read this message. It is important .

Jaime

 

[Anonymous]

If you have something to discuss or bring to light, start a new thread so the topic can be covered from all sides. Tacking something on to the end of another thread isn't a very good way to have that conversation methinks.

 

[clarionreef]

Dear Mr. Baquero,
Then a seperate thread is in order.
We could call it ...
"Haribon, environmental NGO or embezzling front group ruining the chance of reform for years in the Philippines".
If the public be served, and cares to see it...I challenge you to an open debate about it.
Steve

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Mr. Robinson

I have a better suggestion, it must be called Steve Robinson and Ferdinand Cruz credibility.

Jaime Baquero

 

[JennM]

And just how is mud-slinging and he said/he said furthering the cause right here and right now? I missed that part. :roll:

Clearly there are two sides to the inuendo - why don't you just finish throwing stones so we can move forward? Get it ALL out in the open and get it out of your systems. Sheesh.

I thought we were all on the same side here?

Jenn

 

[clarionreef]

Jenn,
The reason there are not enough netcaught fish in variety [ despite all the trainings and money raised] is the bone of contention.
If it is kept hidden, as are many things, then so be it. I certainly do understand peoples hnee-jerk aversion to controversy unless it involves them personally or is about marine salt.
Thats why I asked "if the public be served"? If not then we can just 'step outside'.
Steve

ps. Now you're attacking Ferdie as well?

 

[naesco]

So with all the hundreds of thousands of dollars or perhaps even millions spent in the Philippines on training.
So with all the hundreds of fishers trained.
Why is it that it is so tough to get net caught fish?

 

[clarionreef]

Thank you Naesco,
I rest my case.
Steve

 

[John_Brandt]

Thank you Naesco,
I rest my case.
Steve

Steve,

Your case is not really rested if naesco's question goes unanswered. Surely there must be honest answers, even if they are bad news.