New Paper on Effects of Cyanide on Corals

[dizzy]

Mary,
Grants are often awarded in phases. Phase I is usually a much lesser amount than Phase II. In order to be funded in Phase II, Phase I must show that your basic hyothesis is correct. The competition for such grants is fierce. The lure of this grant money has a very strong appeal. If you were seeking funding to study the harmful effects of cyanide on corals it would pay to make sure the corals were dying in Phase I. I think the nature of the funding system insures that we get a lot of bad research.

 

[mkirda]

I think the nature of the funding system insures that we get a lot of bad research.

Being involved with academics daily, I would disagree.
This system would try to ensure that bad research does not get funded for phase 2 by showing the hypothesis to be false. On to the next one...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[dizzy]

I think the nature of the funding system insures that we get a lot of bad research.

Being involved with academics daily, I would disagree.
This system would try to ensure that bad research does not get funded for phase 2 by showing the hypothesis to be false. On to the next one...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Mike,
What the system tries to ensure and what actually happen are not necessarily one in the same. When you establish a system with such high stakes, guess what happens? Mike my friend when you have a system in which medical researchers refuse to share information that could lead to the cure of terrible diseases, because their company can make more money if they get a patent, well then you know you have a system that has some serious faults. Lets move on.

 

[PeterIMA]

Mitch, I am not sure I understand your point(s). You seem to be implying there was something wrong with the research conducted by James Cervino (although I have no indication that you actually read the paper). I am not sure what makes you qualified to judge the research. There were six co-authors (including myself). Each person had specialized skills/qualifications that contributed to a strong paper. Undoubtedly, not all questions were answered. Research generally raises more questions that need to be answered. That is good science.

The paper got published in a prestigious journal ( Marine Pollution Bulleti) after rigorous scientific peer review. That is significant. Hopefully, the paper will spur governments to take action to deal with illegal cyanide fishing.

Peter Rubec

 

[dizzy]

Here's the full abstract:
Sodium cyanide (NaCN) is widely used for the capture of reef fish throughout Southeast Asia and causes extensive fish mortality, but the effect of NaCN on reef corals remains debated. To document the impact of cyanide exposure on corals, the species Acropora millepora, Goniopora sp., Favites abdita, Trachyphyllia geoffrio, Plerogyra sp., Heliofungia actinformis, Euphyllia divisa, and Scarophyton sp., and the sea anemone Aiptasia pallida were exposed to varying concentrations of cyanide for varying time periods. Corals were exposed to 50, 100, 300, and 600 mg/l of cyanide ion (CN-) for 1–2 min (in seawater, the CN- forms hydrocyanic acid). These concentrations are much lower than those reportedly used by fish collectors. Exposed corals and anemones immediately retracted their tentacles and mesenterial filaments, and discharged copious amounts of mucus containing zooxanthellae. Gel electrophoreses techniques found changes in protein expression in both zooxanthellae and host tissue. Corals and anemones exposed to cyanide showed an immediate increase in mitotic cell division of their zooxenthellae, and a decrease in zooxanthellae density. In contrast, zooxanthellae cell division and density remained constant in controls. Histopathological changes included gastrodermal disruption, mesogleal degradation, and increased mucus in coral tissues. Zooxanthellae showed pigment loss, swelling, and deformation. Mortality occurred at all exposure levels. Exposed specimens experienced an increase in the ratio of gram-negative to gram-positive bacteria on the coral surface. The results demonstrate that exposure cyanide causes mortality to corals and anemones, even when applied at lower levels than that used by fish collectors. Even brief exposure to cyanide caused slow-acting and long-term damage to corals and their zooxanthellae.

Peter,
In fairness about all I read was the abstract posted by Tom and the stuff you posted. It is obvious that the researchers were able to show that cyanide can harm or kill corals. What is less obvious to me is if the experiments accurately mimicked the exposure doses administered by the divers. Perhaps it does, I am most certainly not qualified to say it doesn't. It just seems to me that all they needed to do was have a diver squirt a normal dose into a coral and see what happens. I'm sure there are some converted juicers that still remember how to do it. Also since it is already illegal to use and we see all the dead corals, why is the research necessary anyway. Don't tell me it's just to convince kalkbreath. :roll:

 

[PeterIMA]

Mitch,I think I already explained that Cervino went out with cyanide fishermen and observed and photographed how they spray the cyanide on the corals. The collectors readily admitted that the cyanide killed the corals. One collector showed him bleached corals that he stated were only sprayed once with cyanide. The bleached corals were photographed and the diver using the cyanide photoagraphed. What is less clear is what cyanide concentration reach the corals (on average) and for how long (your points)? This does need further study. OK?

I accept that you are reasonable about this. I find Kalk's comments unreasonable.

Peter Rubec

 

[dizzy]

Peter,
Thanks. I'm not trying to call the researcher's ethics into question. Some of my post could have been better worded. I want to see cyanide fishing stopped as much as anyone.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Well I am............It appears you all are scared of what the results would be if a true test was conducted..................Do a test, finding the smallest concentration of cyanide that stuns fish slightly enough for collection {And allows then fish to survive for weeks later} and still harms the coral...........just like the real world.............all this pretend crap speaks volumes.........I think you all are quite afraid of what the out come would be......................having live fish in the test is the only way to verify that the concentrations are true to the real world..........unlike scientists the fish cant lie.....................................

 

[mkirda]

Well I am............It appears you all are scared of what the results would be if a true test was conducted.

Absurd. Completely, totally absurd...

I've seen the results of such a field test.

You claimed it was 'eel rubbings'. The fact that eels don't fit between the branches of the Acropora sp. head pictured, or the fact that there was no hole into which an eel could hide not withstanding...

Cyanide, even in small doses, small enough to stun the fish and allow it to live for weeks, still kills corals.

Amazing... Dizzy argues 'Duh... I coulda told ya that!' and Kalkbreath argues "No... Wait... There's one coral head over here we haven't hit yet... Let's see if a half squeeze kills this one too!"

Peter, if James Cervino ever saw this thread, you know what he'd say?
Save us from this stupidity... Ban the trade NOW!!!

Regards.
Mike Kirda
P.S. The scary thing is that I wouldn't really have a good counter-argument...

 

[Kalkbreath]

Ya......it looks as if your..scared.............

 

[mkirda]

Ya......it looks as if your..scared.............

So scared I'm white-faced...

 

[Kalkbreath]

This is the vast wasteland of cyanide damage ........http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/m ... /index.htm

 

[Kalkbreath]

Tell us more about that test in the ocean......................how long did they hold the fish for observation? and how were they to know that this amount of cyanide was the lowest dose that would still allow collecton of the target fish?

 

[clarionreef]

Hey,
There are a few thousand divers in S.E.Asia that knew the truth about cyanide long before the internet made it a discussion topic.
I lived in the fishing village of Bolinao, Pangasinan for almost two years and before they converted to nets, they taught me what I know about the effects of cyanide.
Never did I hear it defended. There was a resignation to its harmful effects on corals. Divers would discuss a matter of factly how the coral became covered in brown snot and died after using cyanide. They remarked how the corals died in silt free areas on off shore seamounts and how fish numbers decreased so much. They always knew the areas they fished before and never wanted to drop anchor there afterwards. "Why not here?" I would ask." Too much sodium" they replied.
Most of the collectors there were Visayan and came from Cebu, They came up to Luzon on account of how bad the fishing had become in
Cebu. Too many "sodium boys" down there I remember hearing.
They knew it was wrong and that they were wrong. It was just a question of making a living and getting paid. They were contrite. They were humble and they never doubted its effects on the coral.
Now, 20 years later we regard a defense of the stuff by a retailer in America. They would get a kick out of that.
No one knows better than the guys who work with the stuff what then real after effects are. The evidence of their years of experience was good enough for me.
Nice to see that science is finally playing catch up now that so much
critical aquarium fish habitat has been lost. We should've just listened to the locals the first time.
Steve

 

[PeterIMA]

Steve, Thanks for providing the prespective of someone who has been there, lived with the collectors on Santiago Island during 1983 and 1984, and who introduced net-training to the Philippines. I accompanied Steve to the village of Binabalian on Santiago Island (near Bolinao in NW Luzon) in 1986, witnessed the degraded condition of the reefs, and interviewed the aquarium fish collectors. Both Steve and I have extensively documented the impacts of cyanide fishing in aquarium magazines and in the scientific literature. Too bad, Kalk either has a short memory or was too young to read these articles.

I can provide photocopies of articles for those interested.

Peter Rubec

 

[Anonymous]

Great, you've one person who's keenly interested right here. Please pm me with details.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Hey,
There are a few thousand divers in S.E.Asia that knew the truth about cyanide long before the internet made it a discussion topic.
I lived in the fishing village of Bolinao, Pangasinan for almost two years and before they converted to nets, they taught me what I know about the effects of cyanide.
Never did I hear it defended. There was a resignation to its harmful effects on corals. Divers would discuss a matter of factly how the coral became covered in brown snot and died after using cyanide. They remarked how the corals died in silt free areas on off shore seamounts and how fish numbers decreased so much. They always knew the areas they fished before and never wanted to drop anchor there afterwards. "Why not here?" I would ask." Too much sodium" they replied.
Most of the collectors there were Visayan and came from Cebu, They came up to Luzon on account of how bad the fishing had become in
Cebu. Too many "sodium boys" down there I remember hearing.
They knew it was wrong and that they were wrong. It was just a question of making a living and getting paid. They were contrite. They were humble and they never doubted its effects on the coral.
Now, 20 years later we regard a defense of the stuff by a retailer in America. They would get a kick out of that.
No one knows better than the guys who work with the stuff what then real after effects are. The evidence of their years of experience was good enough for me.
Nice to see that science is finally playing catch up now that so much
critical aquarium fish habitat has been lost. We should've just listened to the locals the first time.
Steve

Yes and since then every collector has changed to nets.....I thought you stated that only blue tangs ,angles and clown triggers were collected with jjuice Steve? So how much hobby cyanide use could still be going on for the trade? Stop pointing to the fish food trade to furthure your agenda.........Do the test and stop running from it..........

 

[Anonymous]

What?? :lol: :lol: :lol: I did not understand a word of that, but please, don't worry about elaborating. :lol:

 

[clarionreef]

Kalk,
The comments were incoherent. Say again. Running from something, hidden agenda, food fish, do the dew, huh?
In that time BOLINAO WAS GRAND CENTRAL STATION FOR ANGELS [NOT ANGLES] , BLUE TANGS AND CLOWN TRIGGERS. THERE was also a lot of cyanide use among kids 13-16 years old in the lagoons going after sailfin tangs, puffers, lions,clowns and anything that swims.
Making it simpler for you to understand is going to be difficult but the critical groups of fishes usually caught with cyanide are the ones mentioned . By no means were they the only ones. Speaking in absolutes was not done. You seem to have many false memories.
Look how thin skinned the other threads are. Isn't Kalk a breath of fresh air everyone. He takes a lickin and keeps on tickin.
Steve

 

[Kalkbreath]

Sorry, I was in a hurry.........1983?.....many of the things Steve witnessed twenty years ago are hardly relative today...........perhaps that is why the report in Advanced Aquarium only managed to find two partially bleached corals during the entire visit?.............Second, I find it strange that Blue tangs and clown triggers from PI are some of the healthiest fish anywhere......{angels not withstanding}..........perhaps all the hype about those species being juiced today is unfounded as well.......? The past does not equal the present {Tony Roberts} Five years ago all of Bali fish were juiced......but today very few. Very little of the observations made twenty years ago have come to be, the reefs in PI are still the most productive in the world. Yes,the reefs in PI have been degraded somewhat ........but not nearly as degraded as our own USA Florida reefs from twenty years ago {I was there then}A MAC for Carribean fish, just like PI would not help a bit because the reefs have not been harmed by our hobby in either country? I still find it odd that so few photos of all that hobby destruction in PI have ever been shown to the public? Two partially bleached corals seems a bit suspect ......especially when you consider that .......coral eating butterflies, coral crunching parrot fish, Crown of thorns starfish, barrier net tangling fishermen, boat anchors and even the ever present eel rubbing morays ... are in great numbers throughout those reefs? Besides cyanide does not harm small sections of sps corals {Does it PETER?} The poison translocates throughout the entire coral tissue.....it effects the whole colony {kinda like ROUND UP the herbicide does with plants} How many of the corals in the test only lost small areas of tissue? Peter?