Bias in Philippine Field Reporting?

[John_Brandt]

Mike King, you met with some collectors who are happy with MAC. Did you ask to meet with the ones that aren't? This would help present a more unbiased view. The problem I have with "Reports" from people who have been paid by a particular organization is that inevitably it will be slanted in that organization's favor. I think it's always important to list exactly what conflict of interests exist- such as who paid for it and any relation between the organization and the "reporter". Isn't MAC working with CORL to help obtain funding for CORL projects? Wouldn't this affect the way you report issues as they pertain to MAC? Although your input is appreciated and interesting, I put much more stock in reports from people like Mike Kirda, who as far as I can tell are completely unbiased. He's not industry, he's not affliated with a bunch of letters, he went on his own dime, etc...

I would like you to entertain a hypothetical scenario.....

What would happen if Mike Kirda's sources are biased?

John Brandt

MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago

 

[MaryHM]

Obviously anytime you speak to any person there is going to be some sort of bias on that person's part. This is true of anything, and readers automatically assume that. What I'm talking about is the reporters themselves.

 

[mkirda]

What would happen if Mike Kirda's sources are biased?

John,

They are ALL biased to a certain degree.

The question becomes, which ones do you trust the most?

Ahh... Trust... That stupid word keeps cropping up again and again.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[John_Brandt]

What I'm talking about is the reporters themselves.

Mike Kirda was strongly critical of MAC before he went to the Philippines.

John Brandt

MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago

 

[MaryHM]

Unfortunately trust is one of those intangibles that no one can ever make any money off of by certifying it.

 

[John_Brandt]

The situation in the Philippines reminds me of a variation on Richard Feynman's quantum physics adage:

If you think you understand what is going on in the Philippines, you don't understand what is going on in the Philippines.


John Brandt

MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago

 

[MaryHM]

John,

I really didn't know anything about Mike Kirda until after his trip to the Philippines. Maybe he was critical of MAC and maybe he wasn't. As far as I know he wasn't publicly and openly critical. One thing I know for absolute certain is that he is not an industry person and he's not a person obsessed with having a bunch of letters following his name. He has nothing to gain financially or politically by supporting one side or the other.

 

[John_Brandt]

Unfortunately trust is one of those intangibles that no one can ever make any money off of by certifying it.

MAC won't be "making money" off of certification. MAC is a non-profit conservation-oriented organization. The plan hopes for self-sufficiency within several years. A desire to be weaned off of grants and supported by the industry itself.

FWIW, MAC has not had a single dollar of income since it's inception. All funding has come from grants. The aquarium industry and hobby, sadly has contributed nothing. I give great quantities of time and expertise to the effort.

John Brandt

MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago

 

[mkirda]

What I'm talking about is the reporters themselves.

Mike Kirda was strongly critical of MAC before he went to the Philippines.

John Brandt

John,

This is blatantly untrue.

Review my posts before December 29, 2002. I had hardly posted at all on RDO. Also, the majority of those posts would have had little or nothing to do with MAC. I am a bit surprised you would accuse me of this.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[MaryHM]

Goodness knows I don't understand all of the intricacies involved with the trade in the Philippines. I've only been importing fish out of there for a short time. However, I'm learning more and more everyday by speaking to people who are in the situation everyday and those who have decades of experience dealing with the issues. This is one reason why I wish horge would post more regularly. I learn a lot from him. Basically I take my understanding and experience of how the industry operates, mix that in with my extreme passion for true industry reform, and add in knowledge from multiple outside sources who are actually involved in the various issues. This foundation is what I use to base my opinions on.

 

[John_Brandt]

What I'm talking about is the reporters themselves.

Mike Kirda was strongly critical of MAC before he went to the Philippines.

John Brandt

John,

This is blatantly untrue.

Review my posts before December 29, 2002. I had hardly posted at all on RDO. Also, the majority of those posts would have had little or nothing to do with MAC. I am a bit surprised you would accuse me of this.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Mike, chill out. I'm talking about personal communications with you.

John Brandt

MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago

 

[John_Brandt]

John,

...and he's not a person obsessed with having a bunch of letters following his name.

Should I take that as a personal attack on me Mary?


John Brandt

MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago

 

[John_Brandt]

Mary,

Does this: www.reefsource.com make you biased?

John Brandt

MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago

 

[MaryHM]

MAC won't be "making money" off of certification. MAC is a non-profit conservation-oriented organization. The plan hopes for self-sufficiency within several years. A desire to be weaned off of grants and supported by the industry itself.

FWIW, MAC has not had a single dollar of income since it's inception. All funding has come from grants. The aquarium industry and hobby, sadly has contributed nothing. I give great quantities of time and expertise to the effort.

Funny thing about "non-profits"- someone is generally making some money. Maybe it's a salary or benefits or trips around the world. But don't ever think for a second someone isn't making some money off the whole thing. MAC has obtained some high-dollar grants, from my understanding, over the past 5 years or so. I would guess that a large portion of this money goes toward salaries. We all know it hasn't gone toward netting material When I attended MAC sponsored events as a MAC board member, I never once accepted a penny from them even when they offered to pay for travel/hotel/parking/etc... Why? Because I wanted to remain independent. I've seen other people readily accept these fringe benefits, and seen the self-importance they obtain from being comped. Frankly, it makes me nauseous. And for the record, I'm not talking about you personally John.

Does it strike you as odd that all of these companies who so sincerely support the efforts of industry reform by lining up for a MAC sticker haven't contributed a dime to MAC's efforts???

 

[MaryHM]

Should I take that as a personal attack on me Mary?

My god John, is it possible for me to say anything without you taking it the wrong way?? There are plenty of people here and elsewhere that like to tack on a set of letters after their names. I was not pointing you out specifically or even specifically implying you. Directing someone to my website is not the same as someone making sure everyone knows they are a member of XYZ. John, please take a deep breath and calm down. I am not here to personally attack you. I've been saying the same stuff on this forum for well over a year. Long before you ever came around. And I've been saying it for 3+ years before this forum was created. My strong opinions have not formed since you became moderator. I don't have it out for you. In fact, I am lobbying to make sure you remain as moderator. So please, stop taking things personally and this board will operate a lot smoother. The constant personal drama draws readers in for a short time, but they tire of it quickly. My goal is to make sure the readers here (and there are lots of lurkers) can read about the issues and form their own opinions. If they want drama, they can tune in to Days of Our Lives (huh, Jenn!)

 

[John_Brandt]

Should I take that as a personal attack on me Mary?

My god John, is it possible for me to say anything without you taking it the wrong way?? There are plenty of people here and elsewhere that like to tack on a set of letters after their names. I was not pointing you out specifically or even specifically implying you. Directing someone to my website is not the same as someone making sure everyone knows they are a member of XYZ. John, please take a deep breath and calm down. I am not here to personally attack you. I've been saying the same stuff on this forum for well over a year. Long before you ever came around. And I've been saying it for 3+ years before this forum was created. My strong opinions have not formed since you became moderator. I don't have it out for you. In fact, I am lobbying to make sure you remain as moderator. So please, stop taking things personally and this board will operate a lot smoother. The constant personal drama draws readers in for a short time, but they tire of it quickly. My goal is to make sure the readers here (and there are lots of lurkers) can read about the issues and form their own opinions. If they want drama, they can tune in to Days of Our Lives (huh, Jenn!)

Mary,

I believe I was wrongly accused of a personal attack on yourself and Jenn several days ago in the "clean" fish thread. I asked if you were just now making a personal attack on me to point out the absurdity of accusing people of this.

Truth is, I can take a whole lot from people. But to be suddenly accused of getting personal (which happened to me) really threw me for a curve.

John Brandt

MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago

 

[mkirda]

If you think you understand what is going on in the Philippines, you don't understand what is going on in the Philippines.

Hey, I thought it was only the Chinese that were so inscrutable... {grin}

On one level this is true, John. On another level, it is not.

Privately, I've often referred to the situation in the Philippines as very 'Rashomon-esque'. Rashomon being a movie by Akira Kurosawa, one of the greatest directors ever. The movie is a tale of a trial, where every person who witnessed the 'act' tells the story in an entirely different way. In the end, you have seen six versions of the truth, and have no way of knowing which one is real. Kurosawa meant the movie as an expression of the idea that 'truth' is unknowable, that experience colors and distorts it.

Since I returned from the Philippines, I have always tried to follow one bit of Ferdinand's advice: Do not take my word for it. Find out things for yourself.
I have always thought that MAC needed an objective review.
What I read in this forum and what I learned in the Philippines did not make me anti-MAC. I am still not anti-MAC. Maybe I am objective enough to do that review?

I have tried to find out the 'unknowable' with regards to MAC.
MAC has often not liked the questions that were asked of them.
Asking hard questions is unpopular right now in this country, unfortunately.

You and I both know many things we cannot say publicly.
Maybe we both know too much of the 'truth'. Or the lies. Or whatever they may be, the unknowables.

I made a conscious decision to back-off the MAC for a bit after the CDT announcement was made. I will give David his six weeks of breathing room. He must keep up his side of the bargain, which is to make sure that the pronouncements are backed up by action. I, for one, do not want to see MAC fail, either by dilution of its mission, or by lack of focus on the real problems it faces.

Here is one of my unpopular questions:
Has the MAC ever called Peter Rubec for his thoughts on how they should handle the CDT?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago

Omigod, the irony...

 

[MaryHM]

John, here's some more advice- for what it's worth. LET IT GO. The reefs staff is handling that thread as we speak. I told you that if you would treat me with respect I would do the same for you. I meant it and I have followed through. You are getting dramatic with me again. Please don't turn this board into a forum for personal dramas to unfold. Like I said, readers are drawn in for a time, but they will quickly leave and never come back. I worked too hard to keep this forum a place where a reasonable exchange of opinions could occur in a friendly environment. Please, I seriously beg you, do everything you can now that you are in the moderator's seat to keep it that way. I know it's a daunting task, but it's much easier if you realize that a difference in opinon is not a personal attack.

 

[mkirda]

Mike, chill out. I'm talking about personal communications with you.

John Brandt

I recall listening intently as you described MAC as shipping certified fish back in November (October?) of 2002 when we made that road trip out to Harbor.
I do not recall saying *anything* even vaguely against the MAC at that time.

If you do, then your memory is far better than mine, bud.

I recall things being more like: Hmm.... That is interesting. I wonder if I could visit with some net-caught fishermen when I go to the Philippines... When I had contacted Ferdie, he was still employed with MAC...

It was only after I got there that I really saw so many problems/issues.

Regards.
Mike Kirda