Coral Farms and Reef Balls
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http://reefball.org/
Politics notwithstanding, to answer the question, a reef ball is a concrete mold which is placed in an area of reef rehabilitation, and it becomes populated with reef creatures. Pretty interesting, actually.
One of the members of the reef club here procured an educational video a couple of years ago, and showed it to the club.
The organization reefball.org is actually based right down the road from me about 8 miles, in Woodstock, Georgia.
Jenn
Politics notwithstanding, to answer the question, a reef ball is a concrete mold which is placed in an area of reef rehabilitation, and it becomes populated with reef creatures. Pretty interesting, actually.
One of the members of the reef club here procured an educational video a couple of years ago, and showed it to the club.
The organization reefball.org is actually based right down the road from me about 8 miles, in Woodstock, Georgia.
Jenn
Reefballs, despite what 'reefball.org' says, have been slammed in the international community as being ineffective. Basically, it's another attempt at an artificial reef substrate. Scientists don't like it from what I have heard. Others may know more.
Although I do not condone the violation of patents this is a good example of the type of behaviour that will never get anything done.
Perhaps now the IMA is not a contender for the next coral farming grant.
If the NGO's, all 501C3, that do human relief and development behaved in this manner hundreds of thousands more people would needlessly die every time there is a famine.
Tim
Can of worms opened? I think not.
The ReefBall (www.reefball.com) company has been around for many years and is international in its operation. It took them years of work and hundreds of thousands to develop the design and methods they incorporated into the ReefBall design. As a company they have every right to protect their product. Todd created the ReefBall foundation (www.reefball.org) as a way of helping the other Non Profit Organizations, School groups and others to purchase the molds (and tools needed to produce the reefballs) which cost hundreds to produce. They have given these molds away at times to not for profits along with materials to make the ReefBalls. CORL being a Not - for - Profit organization (NFP) buys these molds through the ReefBall foundation at greatly reduced prices, ANY organization can do just that.
BTW to be totally transparent I am on the ReefBall Foundations Board of Directors and I still pay the same amount as everyone else for the molds and equipment from ReefBalls foundation. And I also sometimes give them away.
Also the reef ball is a designed structure for an artificial reef its application is limited in TRUE reef restoration.
There is a can of worms in my post that really does need to be opened, is it going right over your heads or what?
Peter please respond to my question.
Mike
The ReefBall (www.reefball.com) company has been around for many years and is international in its operation. It took them years of work and hundreds of thousands to develop the design and methods they incorporated into the ReefBall design. As a company they have every right to protect their product. Todd created the ReefBall foundation (www.reefball.org) as a way of helping the other Non Profit Organizations, School groups and others to purchase the molds (and tools needed to produce the reefballs) which cost hundreds to produce. They have given these molds away at times to not for profits along with materials to make the ReefBalls. CORL being a Not - for - Profit organization (NFP) buys these molds through the ReefBall foundation at greatly reduced prices, ANY organization can do just that.
BTW to be totally transparent I am on the ReefBall Foundations Board of Directors and I still pay the same amount as everyone else for the molds and equipment from ReefBalls foundation. And I also sometimes give them away.
Also the reef ball is a designed structure for an artificial reef its application is limited in TRUE reef restoration.
There is a can of worms in my post that really does need to be opened, is it going right over your heads or what?
Peter please respond to my question.
Mike
After looking at the Reefball website and determining that it is concrete that they are using to make the balls. Did they contact Leroy Headlee to see if it was OK to use his idea of reef structures made out of concrete? Who is copying who here?
Mike, perhaps you can answer??
Mike, perhaps you can answer??
Tim,
I don't think the idea of concrete structures is what's the patent covers rather it’s the design of the reefball structure itself. They have been tossing cement into the oceans for decades and calling the cement fields artificial reefs long before Jim or Reefballs were ever involved.
FWIW HA, The US government and many other Governmental and non-governmental organizations are using ReefBalls with great success.
Check out NOAA's Coral Reef site. The experiment using boulder building corals went great and without a loss to either a donor coral or the transplant 100% success.
Mike
I don't think the idea of concrete structures is what's the patent covers rather it’s the design of the reefball structure itself. They have been tossing cement into the oceans for decades and calling the cement fields artificial reefs long before Jim or Reefballs were ever involved.
FWIW HA, The US government and many other Governmental and non-governmental organizations are using ReefBalls with great success.
Check out NOAA's Coral Reef site. The experiment using boulder building corals went great and without a loss to either a donor coral or the transplant 100% success.
Mike
Mike, I am quite shocked by your statements.
Your statements about the coral farm at barangay Caw-oy on Olango Island do not agree with the reports that I have been receiving from staff associated with IMA-Philippines. My understanding is that the site did become run down last year (due to funding problems). We still pay staff to maintain this farm on Olango Island. There has been quite a bit of work done there recently. As I stated, we have been rearing giant clams on the site in collaboration with Dr. Gomez. A new training center is being built. A motorized boat was recently sent there to replace one lost in a storm early this year.
The coral farm on Camotes Island (not Camontes) was created by a student who worked for IMA for about six months. His report is cited in my TURFs paper. It is possible that IMA no longer has staff there.
I am aware of the collaboration that you have with Todd Barber of the Reef Ball Foundation situated in Sarasota, Florida. I was certainly impressed with some of the concepts that you and Todd presented at the 2nd Marine Ornamentals Conference held in late November 2001.
It is not fair to insinuate that either myself or anyone with IMA has infringed on the patents of the ReefBall Foundation. I will try to obtain information concerning the ReefBalls that you claim to have seen on Camotes Island. I really don't know anything about them. If you believe I am lying, you are free to sue either me or IMA. But, please also be prepared to deal with being sued.
Peter Rubec
Your statements about the coral farm at barangay Caw-oy on Olango Island do not agree with the reports that I have been receiving from staff associated with IMA-Philippines. My understanding is that the site did become run down last year (due to funding problems). We still pay staff to maintain this farm on Olango Island. There has been quite a bit of work done there recently. As I stated, we have been rearing giant clams on the site in collaboration with Dr. Gomez. A new training center is being built. A motorized boat was recently sent there to replace one lost in a storm early this year.
The coral farm on Camotes Island (not Camontes) was created by a student who worked for IMA for about six months. His report is cited in my TURFs paper. It is possible that IMA no longer has staff there.
I am aware of the collaboration that you have with Todd Barber of the Reef Ball Foundation situated in Sarasota, Florida. I was certainly impressed with some of the concepts that you and Todd presented at the 2nd Marine Ornamentals Conference held in late November 2001.
It is not fair to insinuate that either myself or anyone with IMA has infringed on the patents of the ReefBall Foundation. I will try to obtain information concerning the ReefBalls that you claim to have seen on Camotes Island. I really don't know anything about them. If you believe I am lying, you are free to sue either me or IMA. But, please also be prepared to deal with being sued.
Peter Rubec
Peter,
I’m not personally attacking either you or IMA. I just want some clarification on the statements you made, as they are way off from what I saw and was told. Was the student Joey Cantos? If so I’ll call him up and find out what happened to the 2nd coral farm project.
As far as the reefball goes I have no dispute, its Todd who has something to say if anything. As a BOD member of the ReefBall foundation I felt it was my duty to report any infringment of the ReefBall companies patent. I’m sure if you or Vaughn call Todd and promise not to infringe on his design he will let the matter go. While I was on the subject I brought it up so you could address the situation.
For what its worth when I visited the Cow-oy site in Feb is was in shambles.
Mike
I’m not personally attacking either you or IMA. I just want some clarification on the statements you made, as they are way off from what I saw and was told. Was the student Joey Cantos? If so I’ll call him up and find out what happened to the 2nd coral farm project.
As far as the reefball goes I have no dispute, its Todd who has something to say if anything. As a BOD member of the ReefBall foundation I felt it was my duty to report any infringment of the ReefBall companies patent. I’m sure if you or Vaughn call Todd and promise not to infringe on his design he will let the matter go. While I was on the subject I brought it up so you could address the situation.
For what its worth when I visited the Cow-oy site in Feb is was in shambles.
Mike
Peter wrote:
"It is not fair to insinuate that either myself or anyone with IMA has infringed on the patents of the ReefBall Foundation. I will try to obtain information concerning the ReefBalls that you claim to have seen on Camotes Island. I really don't know anything about them. If you believe I am lying, you are free to sue either me or IMA. But, please also be prepared to deal with being sued."
Peter I have time stamped video of the reefball, If you want I can send you a picture or two. John Brandt was also there and I pointed it out to him. I'm not insinuating anything I'm telling you what I saw so you can correct the problem. I tried to ask around about where it came from but no one would admit anything(the former coral farm workers and former IMA staff members I talked to).
I just told them if they did know who made it please tell them that copying it wasn't a good idea and they could get into trouble for doing so.
I will be back in the Cebu area in July- August I hope to see the Coral farm in better shape.
Mike
"It is not fair to insinuate that either myself or anyone with IMA has infringed on the patents of the ReefBall Foundation. I will try to obtain information concerning the ReefBalls that you claim to have seen on Camotes Island. I really don't know anything about them. If you believe I am lying, you are free to sue either me or IMA. But, please also be prepared to deal with being sued."
Peter I have time stamped video of the reefball, If you want I can send you a picture or two. John Brandt was also there and I pointed it out to him. I'm not insinuating anything I'm telling you what I saw so you can correct the problem. I tried to ask around about where it came from but no one would admit anything(the former coral farm workers and former IMA staff members I talked to).
I just told them if they did know who made it please tell them that copying it wasn't a good idea and they could get into trouble for doing so.
I will be back in the Cebu area in July- August I hope to see the Coral farm in better shape.
Mike
Did the village actually use a Reefball mold?? Or did they copy the idea and make their own from scratch? Copying ideas is not patent infringement as far as I am aware.
Mike, I don't appreciate your using this forum as a tool to bash the IMA and further your own agendas. You should not have mentioned the whole Reefball situation as that is between the IMA and Reefballs, not RDO or the general public. Perhaps John should spank you with the wet noodle or would that be a conflict of interest?
Tim
Heh, maybe they put that hemispherical concrete substrate with holes in it (wouldn't want to call a ball of concrete some proprietary name and open myself up to a lawsuit now would I?) down on the ocean floor before the patent became effective?
I doubt that whoever put that artificial substrate down there is making a profit from it, so why the threat of lawsuit? Could it just be that someone's ego is hurt over being copied? Well shoot - that's something we here at RDO pretty much take for granted as a daily occurance - but the way we look at it is that while it may be frustrating, if it's good for the hobby we don't cry foul.
I'll take my tongue out of my cheek now...
Cheers
James
I doubt that whoever put that artificial substrate down there is making a profit from it, so why the threat of lawsuit? Could it just be that someone's ego is hurt over being copied? Well shoot - that's something we here at RDO pretty much take for granted as a daily occurance - but the way we look at it is that while it may be frustrating, if it's good for the hobby we don't cry foul.
I'll take my tongue out of my cheek now...
Cheers
James
To be quite honest why is this being brought up besides the need to take a jab at someone. Let's think about a few things:
1. a reef ball "like" (have not seen pictures) structure was seen in a bay in the phillipenes.... surprise
who would have thought you would find something copied in the phillipenes.
2. If it is a copied reef ball "like" structre what are you going to do? Ask them to remove it thus tearing it off the reef. File a suit. Yeah that seems logical let's all sue another NGO that is obviously trying to do the same thing reef ball is trying to do. Make sense, if I can't do it then they can't also mentality.
3. Is this an issue for this forum. Well if you want to acuse someone sure but that is not what this forum is about. If the title was The laws behind the industry behind the hobby then it would be fair game but it is not.
Let's all try to keep to the issues at hand and not get too lead away by the things that are not pertinent to this forum.
1. a reef ball "like" (have not seen pictures) structure was seen in a bay in the phillipenes.... surprise
who would have thought you would find something copied in the phillipenes.2. If it is a copied reef ball "like" structre what are you going to do? Ask them to remove it thus tearing it off the reef. File a suit. Yeah that seems logical let's all sue another NGO that is obviously trying to do the same thing reef ball is trying to do. Make sense, if I can't do it then they can't also mentality.
3. Is this an issue for this forum. Well if you want to acuse someone sure but that is not what this forum is about. If the title was The laws behind the industry behind the hobby then it would be fair game but it is not.
Let's all try to keep to the issues at hand and not get too lead away by the things that are not pertinent to this forum.
Well, OK
No problem with that here.
I should have worded it better and I admit I jumped on Peter about it here on the board. Sorry again Peter, I should have stated it more like this..
By the way Peter do you know where the very poorly copied "ReefBall" at Cow-oy came from? The corals on it were growing very nicely when I saw it in Feb. Please be advised that Todd is quite protective of his patented "ReefBall" design and it would be greatly appreciated if no more copies are made. I'm sure he would provide any organization with a good discount on molds, equipment and instructions to do it right if they wish to make real ReefBalls. He may even give them a free mold it wouldn't be the first time .
Would this still have been out of line?
FWIW I sent Peter an apology.
Sometimes I'm just too direct and forward I will chose my words and the content of the post more carefully in the future.
Mike
No problem with that here.
I should have worded it better and I admit I jumped on Peter about it here on the board. Sorry again Peter, I should have stated it more like this..
By the way Peter do you know where the very poorly copied "ReefBall" at Cow-oy came from? The corals on it were growing very nicely when I saw it in Feb. Please be advised that Todd is quite protective of his patented "ReefBall" design and it would be greatly appreciated if no more copies are made. I'm sure he would provide any organization with a good discount on molds, equipment and instructions to do it right if they wish to make real ReefBalls. He may even give them a free mold it wouldn't be the first time
.Would this still have been out of line?
FWIW I sent Peter an apology.
Sometimes I'm just too direct and forward I will chose my words and the content of the post more carefully in the future.
Mike
Mike R King":3s30bxk2 said:
Mike,
I'm having a hard time understanding why it would take many years and hundreds of thousands of dollars to design a concrete reef structure. It just looks like a concrete sphere with holes in it. Who put up the hundreds of thousands? Was it grant money? It sounds like a fairly simple, straight forward concept to me. What makes this design so unique? I did go to the web site and it is a nice idea, but I don't see a design like this costing hundreds of thousands of dollars, unless someone else was picking up the bill.
I really couldn't figure out why the copied reef ball was even at the coral farm site on Olango Island near Cebu.
There was plenty of live coral in the vicinity, including beautiful and enormous tabletop Acroporas. There were giant Pocilloporas and Porites colonies all about. The "reef ball" had plenty of algae, sponges and coral growth on it. It didn't seem to be serving as much of a fish shelter as there were already lots of natural structures around it, as mentioned. Given its proximity to the coral farm (about 50 feet away) it may have been more experimental than functional.
Mike King declared the coral farm "abandoned", but that didn't make complete sense to me. The coral cages contained a good number of grapefruit-sized Tridacna clams, and there were a few corals within them as well. Lots of algae had accumulated on the cages and that did give it a unkempt appearance. There were corals that were obviously cultured alongside the cages. These were arranged on the seabottom with the look of a backyard garden.
The fully-enclosed wire racks were at 15-20 foot depth. We were snorkeling; and when I went down to examine these cages I could see that the clams looked pretty healthy. I continuously scanned the water for jellyfish, which were plentiful. We had been warned of occasional box jellyfish which are terribly dangerous, and the idea of that kept me hypervigilant.
There was plenty of live coral in the vicinity, including beautiful and enormous tabletop Acroporas. There were giant Pocilloporas and Porites colonies all about. The "reef ball" had plenty of algae, sponges and coral growth on it. It didn't seem to be serving as much of a fish shelter as there were already lots of natural structures around it, as mentioned. Given its proximity to the coral farm (about 50 feet away) it may have been more experimental than functional.
Mike King declared the coral farm "abandoned", but that didn't make complete sense to me. The coral cages contained a good number of grapefruit-sized Tridacna clams, and there were a few corals within them as well. Lots of algae had accumulated on the cages and that did give it a unkempt appearance. There were corals that were obviously cultured alongside the cages. These were arranged on the seabottom with the look of a backyard garden.
The fully-enclosed wire racks were at 15-20 foot depth. We were snorkeling; and when I went down to examine these cages I could see that the clams looked pretty healthy. I continuously scanned the water for jellyfish, which were plentiful. We had been warned of occasional box jellyfish which are terribly dangerous, and the idea of that kept me hypervigilant.
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