Missing the point of MAC issues? Attn: John Brandt and Mary

[Adam1]

John and Mary,

I don't visit this forum much, so forgive me if this has already been addressed. I have been reading some of the threads here with great interest, particularly those concerning how any of us know that a fish is really "clean" and otherwise ethically collected and handled and those concerning how we all know that an animal labeled "MAC certified" really is.

I will say up front that I am a MAC critic. I think the goal is great, but will never be accomplished with the current strategy. Anyway, on to the point....

I had a discussion with an LFS employee recently who's store is or is on it's way to being MAC certified. He was convinced that MAC certification is effective and is proof of ethical collection. He was also convinced that MAC will change the industry and those who don't comply will be forced out.

We all know how it works. The collectors get screwed by middlemen and exporters and get paid peanuts. They want to collect in a way that gets the most fish. The middlemen and exporters know that importers will go somewhere else if the price is too high. Ethical collection is so rare that no one can be confident that any animal is really ethically collected, so they don't bother seeking them out, and certainly won't pay a premium.

Poor practices are the way they are because taking 100 fish from the ocean (the cheapest and fastest way) to get 10 alive to LA is cheaper than taking 10 and handling them in a way that gets all 10 to LA alive.

Does MAC certification prove that the fish is ethically collected and handled? Not to me. Convince me that when MAC turns it's back that the system doesn't revert to it's old ways. You can't.

The bottom line is that money talks. When importers start testing fish for cyanide exposure and refusing to pay for entire shipments of fish that test positive, then things will change. Instead of quietly encouraging cyanide use, the exporters and middlemen will make sure it isn't being used.

I know such a test is in the works. How far away is it from practical use?

MAC simply cannot accomplish it's goals by targeting collectors. They have no money and no power and are at the mercy of the middlemen and exporters. The middlemen and exporters are only going to respond to money, and right now, the money comes from shipping the most fish at the lowest price.

When MAC realizes that it's futile to target collectors, maybe it can concentrate it's limited resources toward mandatory random cyanide testing.

Adam

 

[mkirda]

Adam,

The CDT is a tool, nothing more, nothing less.
Used in the right way, it could be quite effective.
Used in the wrong way, it will just greenwash the industry, giving a 'cyanide-free' label to something that was actually poisoned.

In the quiver of weapons, this is but a single one.
An important one, especially for the all-important hobbyist, but not necessarily the most important, nor most effective one.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

When MAC realizes that it's futile to target collectors, maybe it can concentrate it's limited resources toward mandatory random cyanide testing.

Don't forget who is really in control of the whole shooting match. The customers. The wholesalers won't stop recieving shipments until the LFS stops oredering them. The LFS won't stop ordering them until the customers stop looking for cheap fish.

 

[clarionreef]

Rover,
Don't hold your breath waiting for the mass public to change. This , like cocaine gets changed over there!
Columbian Atty. General Lara said just before he was gunned down..."If only the Americans would stop buying cocaine!"
and... May this brave Columbian patriot rest in peace.
Philippines is moving into the 21st century and out of a history of Spanish and American colonialism. They are stuck in their homeland and must/will change not to please us, but to please themselves. The publicity, community outrage and new environmental ethic rising there will eventually put down cyanide fishing. Its just a matter of how much more damage is suffered in the meantime.
The alledged 'pressure' from this side alone is not doing it very well compared to pissed of local mayors who ban this trade w/ the stroke of a pen. No cyanide fisherman fears reefs.org, MAC or the IMA. He does however not want to meet up with two municipal policeman with a couple of kilos in his boat...and then the mayor and then some local reporter.
Divers sit in jail as we speak and their Manila buyers no longer bail them out...its a chain of custody thing [or complicity].
We need to be aiding where we can make a contribution and encourage the locals to take control of their own coastal areas. Its happening. Credible, pro-village, pro Filipino programs are to be the new thing and providing nets and Filipino trainers to train their own is the best we can do.
Filipino reef productivity is a Filipino priority and needs not our permission or approval. They have a homeland to save and improve for reasons much greater than better ornamental fish for us.
Steve

 

[naesco]

When MAC realizes that it's futile to target collectors, maybe it can concentrate it's limited resources toward mandatory random cyanide testing.

Don't forget who is really in control of the whole shooting match. The customers. The wholesalers won't stop recieving shipments until the LFS stops oredering them. The LFS won't stop ordering them until the customers stop looking for cheap fish.

Or throws the dead cyanide fish back at the LFS and says I am not going to take it anymore.

 

[jamesw]

What about the Lacey Act?

Catching fish with Cyanide is illegal in the P.I. So - according to the Lacey Act, it is therefore illegal to resell them in the US.

If there is an effective CDT that a buyer can use to determine (prove) that aquarium fish were caught using cyanide, then that buyer could charge the seller (in this case, probably an importer/wholesaler) with a violation of the Lacey Act.

This was the tactic that Ecovitality proclaimed it was going to use to shut down people who turned a blind eye to reselling cyanide caught fish. Instead of using the "catch more flies with honey" approach, they decided to use the "stick" approach. Unfortunately, the Ecovitality wholesalers never reached critical mass.

Tim Tessier might have more to say about this as I think he was involved.

Cheers
James

 

[Anonymous]

Don't hold your breath waiting for the mass public to change.

I'm not. My point was that change needs to happen along the entire chain. Replacing or reforming one link won't neccesarily work.

 

[MaryHM]

Adam,

Nice to see some fresh blood in here!! I agree with you about MAC, but if you've read my ka-gillion posts on the subject you already know that. One point you made I found interesting:

Ethical collection is so rare that no one can be confident that any animal is really ethically collected, so they don't bother seeking them out, and certainly won't pay a premium.

Most people don't want to pay a premium even for fish that are absolutely 100% ethically caught. Take Fiji for example. If I have Fijian Coral Beauty Angels on my list for $14.99 (100% net caught, no doubt) and I have Philippine Coral Beauty Angels on my list for $8.99 (I am as close to 100% sure they are ethically caught as I can be), the retailer will always buy up the cheaper ones first. Every single time. Why? Because the hobbyist doesn't want to pay the extra money for a fish that "looks" the same. Ethically collected and handled fish are out there. You just have to take the time to bother seeking them out. And unfortunately everyone in this industry is too busy trying to make a buck to care.

 

[MaryHM]

If there is an effective CDT that a buyer can use to determine (prove) that aquarium fish were caught using cyanide, then that buyer could charge the seller (in this case, probably an importer/wholesaler) with a violation of the Lacey Act.

Which is the reason a stateside CDT is so vitally important. A CDT in the Philippines is a nice start, and in my opinion necessary for certification to even be taken somewhat seriously. However, the only tool I know of that has the power to really do some good is a test that can be administered and enforced by USFWS.

 

[jamesw]

Interesting - The cynic in me says that USFWS would rather shut down the trade than have to increase their scope (CDT testing) without increasing their budget.

But what about fish that don't pass the CDT testing in the P.I.? If they've been tested and failed then imported into the US would be illegal.

I can imagine that that would make some of the exporters/importers extremely against any kind of cyanide detection testing...

Cheers
James

 

[clarionreef]

Rover,
If you convert and train the fisherman in the first step of the chain, the other issues began to fade from view...rapidly.
If there is nothing illegal, immoral and indefensible to peddle, we are no longer waiting for the rest of the chain to reform themselves. Their complicity in the anomalie vanishes.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Steve--
I get your point. But there will always be some people willing to bend the rules.

 

[clarionreef]

And futhermore...
Solving the problem is the seminal issue here. Eliminating the inequity. CDT's and certification schemes are regulatory or verification issues AFTER THE FACT.
Drive safely and worry a great deal less about a speeding ticket. Is that not the case?
Failure to adress and solve the problem, failure to implement remedy and failure to do the job well first makes the certification process a mess and the CDT a constant police action.
Theoretically, all this pressure and policing is supposed to somehow convert divers on its own.
It won't. Not very well...
Serious village training is the answer to this curse on the industry like it or not. CORL has the team and the program to this best. If anyone else could get it right...great. Then we'd have two effective teams and get the problem solved faster.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Theoretically, all this pressure and policing is supposed to somehow convert divers on its own.
It won't. Not very well...
Serious village training is the answer to this curse on the industry like it or not.

Right, but to use your drug analogy, I view (some of) the wholesalers as the guys hiding out on the street corners offering a quick fix right when the withdrawal pains are the worst. The best solution is net training on that side, and encouragement and reinforcement on this side.

 

[JennM]

Most people don't want to pay a premium even for fish that are absolutely 100% ethically caught. Take Fiji for example. If I have Fijian Coral Beauty Angels on my list for $14.99 (100% net caught, no doubt) and I have Philippine Coral Beauty Angels on my list for $8.99 (I am as close to 100% sure they are ethically caught as I can be), the retailer will always buy up the cheaper ones first. Every single time. Why? Because the hobbyist doesn't want to pay the extra money for a fish that "looks" the same. Ethically collected and handled fish are out there. You just have to take the time to bother seeking them out. And unfortunately everyone in this industry is too busy trying to make a buck to care.

Great post, Adam, and definitely prompting some productive discussion. I have to agree with much of what you said.

To that end, Mary hit the nail on the head -- it's all about PRICE. There are a very very few people willing to pay more for quality but the bottom line for most is price.

I can buy the $9 coral beauty and sell it comfortably within the going price range for the local market and make enough to cover its freight, upkeep, help me with rent and utilities etc - operating cost for having a business to sell the coral beauty from.... If I buy the $15 coral beauty, I can still only ask the going price for it because if I price it proportionately higher, the customer will buy one down the road cheaper - regardless of its origin. That's just the way it is -- look at the posts on any of the bulletin boards - everybody wants something cheaper. Quality is a secondary issue. This is partly because nobody wants to believe that there is a difference between one and the other -- they were all caught with nets, right? Nobody uses Cyanide anymore -- that's just "hype" (uh huh.... perpetuate that lie, folks!) I'm comfortable that in this case they are net caught, -- but I could buy a coral beauty for $6.50 from somebody else, still sell it for the fair market price.... and really not know (or dare I say, care???) how long it will live, how it was caught, what damage was caused to the reef and the collector him/herself, in the collection of that animal.... I could go on and on, but I think you get my drift.

Like I said in another thread - the ethics and issues are very complex. However the whole notion of money is a simple one - money talks.

Jenn

 

[JennM]

DOH! Double post.....

 

[Anonymous]

I think there's also another point to this, and that's the fact that most of the LFS out there, at least in America, don't care. To them it's money, and money is the bottom line, but they also don't have the interest or "luck" is it is, to find forums like this that enlighten everyone as to what's going on. They don't know what's going on at all...the struggle of MAC to make things work, the struggle of CORL to make things work...the struggle of the few (in relation) LFS owners/importers that fire query upon query at MAC, CORL, IMA, etc to make certain things are being done.

The other few places within 100 miles of me that sell saltwater fish don't really know nor care about cyanide, or the destruction of the reefs, or anything like that. And, even if they do know about cyanide, I doubt any of them can name off the major players and the issues they struggle against. If I had a talk with any of the store owners around here and brought up MAC, CORL, IMA, Steve Robinson, Tim Tessier, or whomever, they would say "Huh? Who's that?"

It's ignorance across the board, and until that changes, the current situation of the hobby will not.

Peace,

Chip

 

[JennM]

I think there's also another point to this, and that's the fact that most of the LFS out there, at least in America, don't care. To them it's money, and money is the bottom line, but they also don't have the interest or "luck" is it is, to find forums like this that enlighten everyone as to what's going on. They don't know what's going on at all...the struggle of MAC to make things work, the struggle of CORL to make things work...the struggle of the few (in relation) LFS owners/importers that fire query upon query at MAC, CORL, IMA, etc to make certain things are being done.

The other few places within 100 miles of me that sell saltwater fish don't really know nor care about cyanide, or the destruction of the reefs, or anything like that. And, even if they do know about cyanide, I doubt any of them can name off the major players and the issues they struggle against. If I had a talk with any of the store owners around here and brought up MAC, CORL, IMA, Steve Robinson, Tim Tessier, or whomever, they would say "Huh? Who's that?"

It's ignorance across the board, and until that changes, the current situation of the hobby will not.

Peace,

Chip

I agree with you to a point - for some it's only about money, but being about money forces one to care if there is insanely high mortality...

Again, it's a complex issue. I've been lucky enough to live in 2 cities, Ottawa and Atlanta, that had a good selection of quality stores, with staff and owners who care. Not sure who all is still in the biz in Ottawa, but here in Atlanta, on this forum are 3 LFS owners/operators who actively participate in this forum, I know of another that participates in another forum, and I know of one who never will post, but he lurks on many of the forums, and probably this one too. I know of one more who has posted on our club forum, but he hasn't been on in a while.

I know that trying to run a business takes a lot of time. Perhaps so much time, that some owner/operators haven't got the time to spend on these boards -- guess it depends on priorities. For me, all I do is saltwater/reef, so it's a high priority for me to stay current. For *some*, who run fresh as well as saltwater, and/or small animals, cats, dogs, herps..... geez keeping up with the Joneses on all topics would be exhausting, if not impossible. Try having a life on top of all of that! :lol:

Sure, some don't care - not wanting to tar all with one brush, but I suspect that the "specialty" store owners are more likely to be active, than the full line folks - although there are exceptions, present company included. In many large stores, the aquatics livestock dept has no expectation of profit - I've seen this posted time and time again by people who have worked for some of the more well-known chains. If there's no expectation, if the store can earn its keep on cat litter and dog toys, the priority shifts downward, and so on, for people in the aquatics department to try to make things better.

The specialty LFS that doesn't pay attention, will go bust pretty fast, because high mortality will suck all the money out of a store, and drive the customers away, when they see a pattern develop with purchases from that store....

The ones that survive long-term DO care, DO make the best choices they can, and even if they aren't talking here, they are reading, lurking, or otherwise staying current. Before the Internet, there was knowledge about Cyanide use - now it's just easier to learn what's going on here and now.

Jenn

 

[MaryHM]

But what about fish that don't pass the CDT testing in the P.I.? If they've been tested and failed then imported into the US would be illegal.

Really?? Are you sure about that?? A tested fish is a dead fish. How do you prove that the live ones being imported into the US were caught with cyanide?? You can't. This is why a stateside test is important.

 

[Kalkbreath]

If there is an effective CDT that a buyer can use to determine (prove) that aquarium fish were caught using cyanide, then that buyer could charge the seller (in this case, probably an importer/wholesaler) with a violation of the Lacey Act.

Which is the reason a stateside CDT is so vitally important. A CDT in the Philippines is a nice start, and in my opinion necessary for certification to even be taken somewhat seriously. However, the only tool I know of that has the power to really do some good is a test that can be administered and enforced by USFWS.

Mary, If the cost of a Tongan coral beauty or a Fijian .PI or Solomon .................A coral beauty angel from any of these collection points all cost within two bucks of each other .........the reason PI fish land cheaper ids the freight.........Is it not?