Simple Questions for MAC

[MaryHM]

I still haven't received an answer from David Vossler about this, so I thought I'd start a new topic and see if anyone here has an answer.

MAC says they are intent on working on the collection/training side of things.

Is there a training team in place? If so, who are they and what are their qualifications? If not, when is a team going to be in place?

Does MAC currently have the proper netting material to distribute collectors? If so, how is it being distributed? (Given away, sold, etc...). If not, is this a goal of MAC? What is being done to procure the proper materials?

 

[JennM]

Now, Mary -- you know how MAC feels about questions that don't come from "paying customers".... :roll: Really makes you want to be one, doesn't it? I wish the paying customers asked more questions.... makes me think perhaps that certification at the retail level is more of a sales/advertising decision than an ethics one. MAC wouldn't want me as a paying customer - because I'd really be wanting value for my dollar...

I still haven't noticed a change in the stock lists from that LA certified wholesaler regarding resale of certified fish by non-certified retailers - I would have expected a memo or something by now... ah the wheels of burocracy turn ever so slowly....

Jenn

Why does Steve Miller's song about Billy Joe & Bobbie Sue keep sticking in my head?

 

[John_Brandt]

It has nothing to do with being a paying customer. That was used by me in a metaphorical way. What I meant was that Mary is in no way supportive of the efforts of MAC. Her questions are often leading, and they really aren't any attempt at an innocent request for information. Mary is obviously not trying to learn about MAC; she is trying to deconstruct it. Only a blind fool could think otherwise.

 

[MaryHM]

John, shall I assume that your regularly scheduled diversion of blaming me means you don't have an answer to the questions? Typical. Here's a clue...ANYONE who questions or disagrees with MAC publicly is considered a hostile tyrant. Those who lick MAC's boots and steer clear from the tough questions are considered to be supporters. Thank you, but I'll be a hostile tyrant anyday over being a lackey.

Anyone else want to cut and paste my questions? Apparently as long as the question doesn't come from Mary Middlebrook then it's valid and will be deemed worthy of an answer. :roll: I hope MAC realizes how stupid this makes them look.

 

[John_Brandt]

Mary, you can get info about MAC from its Quarterly News.

 

[JennM]

John, there may be a future for you in the diplomatic corps

If MAC was as transparent and virtuous as it would have it's subjects believe, it (it? THEY... the MAC Board of Directors) would answer the questions no matter who they came from, and they wouldn't have to make it personal. In fact, if they had the answers, they would delight in shooting down any Doubting Thomas with facts and truths. Fact is, they can't, not they won't. Clouding the real issues by making a villain out of one (or ones) that would seek to raise the bar, is an old tactic, and not a very clever one at that.

Running Mary down publically is not going to improve MAC's image. Haven't you ever heard the term, "killing with kindness"? If MAC are so loathesome of Mary, then they could get the best "revenge" by promptly and factually putting to rest, any and all of her criticisms and criticisms of any others deemed "hostile tyrants". Why won't they? Why won't you? Just answer the questions. Of course anybody who cuts and pastes the questions will henceforth be known as a "hostile tyrant"....

I don't think it's possible to be a MAC party liner AND ask for accountability. By drawing that line in the sand, MAC enables itself to alienate anybody who challenges their policy, and try to make them look like a lunatic or a cult member

Move over Mary, there's room on the bench for me too.

Jenn

 

[John_Brandt]

Jenn, there are obvious clashes of personalities on this board. Sometimes it does get personal.

 

[JennM]

Ouch, John, I'm hurt. I've NEVER made it personal with you - even though you've crossed the line with me on numerous occasions, even to the point of my complaining to RDO admins that you were making false accusations about me, and about my business. Totally uncalled-for.

Even now, for me, it's not personal toward you, I'd really like to know how I've wronged John Brandt in any way?

I don't see MAC as equal to John Brandt, or any other individual, for that matter. MAC is an entity composed of many persons, which has its own agenda, within the industry that I am a part of. My questions about MAC and my criticisms are about policy and procedure, not about this person or that person. I'm sure that the rest of the MAC BOD are fine, decent people with good intentions, but that is not what I and others are calling into question. We're calling the organization and its policies and procedures into question.

Perhaps MAC needs a spokesperson who can argue the meat-and-potatoes issues without perceiving it as a personal attack.

Jenn

 

[mkirda]

Perhaps MAC needs a spokesperson who can argue the meat-and-potatoes issues without perceiving it as a personal attack.

Jenn

Jenn,

MAC has a spokesperson, and it isn't John Brandt.
I think we all need to direct our questions to... the voice of Nemo.
Isn't he the MAC spokesperson now? :wink:
http://www.aquariumcouncil.org/docs/lib ... xander.PDF

John,

This isn't helping the MAC look good. You would look far better by just directing Mary to the official MAC spokesperson. They do have one on staff, don't they?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[DBM]

Is there a training team in place? If so, who are they and what are their qualifications? If not, when is a team going to be in place?

I'm not on the blacklist am I? I noticed there was no mention of net-training progress in the Philippines. Is there any? Seems to me that they should address the lack of net-caught fish before they implement the CDT.

Why is MAC starting with the training in Indonesia when they haven't even got the Philippines on line?

 

[John_Brandt]

Jenn,

Really my words weren't directed at you. But you side-up so cozy with Mary that it's hard for me to distinguish between your positions. To me it looks like you always mirror her sentiments.

 

[John_Brandt]

Is there a training team in place? If so, who are they and what are their qualifications? If not, when is a team going to be in place?

I'm not on the blacklist am I? I noticed there was no mention of net-training progress in the Philippines. Is there any? Seems to me that they should address the lack of net-caught fish before they implement the CDT.

Why is MAC starting with the training in Indonesia when they haven't even got the Philippines on line?

DBM,

You don't fall into any hostile category that I know of. But take a close look at the MAC Quarterly News that I posted yesterday. There is information about MAC net-training in the Philippines.

 

[clarionreef]

Ma Dibb! [ from Dune]
A new 'fire-brandt' has risen in the North!
The credibility of everyone who has ever insisted on politness and civility over substance is on the line here.
Jaime...Nancy...you are bound by all your past criticisms to lecture John of how to behave.
Both of you have always blasted me for my posts 1/10th as 'rude' as Johns.
I personally have no problem with people revealing their most honest feelings on things but you have...repeatedly.
Sincerely, Steve
PS. MAC or MASNA affiliations among friends are beside the point.
Or...never attack anyone again whos manner you disapprove of.

 

[JennM]

In general, I do mirror her sentiments, you say it like it's a bad thing?! Perhaps not on every detail, but on the important stuff, I feel very similarly to Mary. However I don't come at it from within the way she does. I have not been on the MAC board, as Mary has, and the only contact I've had with MAC is through you and a (very long) phone call from David Vosseler once, and an online chat with Paul Holthus. Other than that, I read their website and their newsletter like every other schmoe who choses to. In posting on this forum, frequently, and being a MAC representative, like it or not you are perceived to be a MAC spokesperson, and perhaps the most visible one out there. I've actually felt some compassion for you at times, because it almost seems as if the board leaves you hanging out to dry when MAC is called on the carpet in this forum. Not an easy position to be in, and I totally understand that, but if you go out on a limb, expect somebody to cut it down. If your opinions and comments do not necessarily reflect those of MAC, perhaps you might consider a disclaimer in your sig line?

I'm just a simple country retailer, looking to do business in the best ethical way possible, and that happens to help the good ole' bottom line at the same time. I have questions to ask of an organization that would have me pay a good chunk of hard-earned change to have me join. This organization's mandate is to create serious changes within this industry, and since I'm a part of that industry, I'm an interested party. What's so wrong with that?

I sense a lot more hostility here lately, John, and it's not coming from Mary. You have become a lot more grouchy lately. Lighten up - if we can't discuss real issues without getting angry and upset, nothing good will ever be accomplished. You've started speaking harshly to anyone who disagrees or challenges the MAC agenda, policies, procedures and timetable. This forum would accomplish nothing if we all had the same ideas, now would it? Intelligent, civil discussion and, yes, sometimes debate, is what makes changes happen.

Don't worry, I know that MAC has given up on me - but that's OK, I can live with it

Jenn

 

[JennM]

PS. MAC or MASNA affiliations among friends are beside the point.
Or...never attack anyone again whos manner you disapprove of.

Doesn't matter Steve, I'm part of MASNA's BOD and I've had my hand slapped here 8O by a peer. I haven't attended a BOD meeting live lately but I've not been the recipient of any spill-over beyond this forum... well except once maybe if I were to read it that way.... but I'm sure it was coincidental, so I didn't take it personally

Jenn

 

[clarionreef]

Jenn,
But my post is for the 'style over substance' police.
I want to know if this is a "queensbury rules" forum or an ultimate fighting ring.
If they approve of Johns behavior then the prestense to civility from them has no meaning and the bar has effectively been lowered...with their approval.
You and Mary are legitimate contributors to this forum and John has just re-defined himself in a very surprising way.
Steve

 

[JennM]

Jenn,
But my post is for the 'style over substance' police.
I want to know if this is a "queensbury rules" forum or an ultimate fighting ring.
Steve

:lol: That should have come with a spew alert - I just deposited coffee all over my keyboard and monitor....

Absolutely right, but funny as heck

OK, must get some real work done... fish poop waits for no one....

Jenn

 

[jamesw]

Multiple emails have already been sent. Everybody just knock it off already.

John, if you want to put someone on "ignore" that's fine with me, but there's no need to go out w/ both barrels blazing.

The same standard applies to everyone here.

Cheers
James

 

[clarionreef]

Thank you James,
Your intervention is fair. We must be protected from ourselves sometimes I guess.
It is however a lot easier for people less involved to invoke "queensbury rules".
Mary, like myself is absolutely dependant upon non cyanide fish supply for livelihood. Hooked on an ethical business policy is fine with everyone in principal but with no one [ virtually no one as the Rover threads revealed] in practice.
Can you imagine the extreme disappointment we have felt to relize that the MAC movement has produced little or no substance we can work with?
The words, mission statements and policy to assure the less involved...but little reality and fewer fish to the most involved.
Marys seminal question is ...is there substance to go with the hype? Not a report of intentions, attempts and game plans but achievement. Measureable, verifyable achievement.
AMATUER TRAININGS AND NET-LESS TRAININGS FOOL MOST OF THE PUBLIC BUT NOT THOSE OF US WHO FOCUS ON RESULTS.
Why not just focus on substance in field productivity and let the results speak for themselves?
There is an us vs. them spirit in the MAC core that serves its teams interests over the trades interests. This spirit is an admission to a lower calling and a different agenda. An agenda more focused on the doctrine of establishing marine protected areas with management plans thru out the tropical world. This is why the MAC core is free of [ and often antagonistic to] aquarium professionals. In fact, they seem to get along better with the leaders of the cyanide trade then their own 'brother' reformers.
The global marine parks collection...Thats a wonderful goal at first reading...and it can best be achieved by genuine village level work, better field team development and better training of fisherman. These things earn real respect and more respect than the publishing of the intentions and environmental manifestos which are frankly, not that hard to write up.
The worth of a program is in its implementation and some of us who are the most involved keep our eye on that.
This is constructive criticism in the best sense of the term. You cannot buy better consultants to test your notions. A good presidential candidate even uses devils advocates to hone his skills and debates them with gusto. The devils advocates should not be so effective in getting to the candidate if his positions are that well thought out.If he is then perhaps the devils advocate has a better plan.
Lets call it what it is:
MAC has funding, [ and soon to be more] and infrastructure.
What they lack is field talent.
Field talent that exists, lacks funding and infrastructure.
Efforts to unite have been close...and then lost.
Thats where it stands.

 

[Anonymous]

As an occasional member of the "niceness police" I'd have to say that I wish most of John's comments had been made in the form of a p.m. rather than out in the public.

An old, wise boss of mine once said "Morey, never get in a ****ing match, because everyone eventually gets wet".

One good thing about these exchanges is that it shows that MASNA is in no way in MAC's hip pocket. The MASNA BOD has divided feelings regarding MACand many issues. It is my hope that hobbyists can have input in the adgenda of MAC by keeping bridges of communication intact and open.

Everything aside, having glanced at the MAC quarterly report I feel that Mary's questions are very good ones, not leading, and I'd like to hear: whether MAC is currently supplying netting materials; has training crews in the field; and what CDT methodology was selected for implementation.

Sincerely,
-Lee Morey

Standard disclaimer: Any cruddy thing that I might say is my fault, not MASNA's fault.