Is it time to blow the whistle on industry?

[Jaime Baquero]

Peter,

Yes, I think that it is necessary to have this "reformist" meeting during the MACNA conference. Also consider that NGOs should be part of the meeting, after all they have been the ones dealing with the cyanide problem in the Philippines during the last 15 years.

Jaime

 

[MaryHM]

How about a meeting at Marine Ornamentals? The MACNA conference really doesn't hold much interest for me as an importer, but MO does. I'd much rather go to that conference.

 

[mkirda]

How about a meeting at Marine Ornamentals?

Where is it? Doubt I could go. MACNA is possible because it is drivable.
Spent way too much of my mad money this year already...

If I had to fly, I think I'd rather meet here:
http://www.pemsea.org/info%20center/big ... 2003_1.htm

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[MaryHM]

http://www.hawaiiaquaculture.org/marine ... als04.html

 

[MaryHM]

Ferdinand has always attended MO in the past. It's a venue more geared toward industry than MACNA.

 

[naesco]

Mary I think your best efforts should be in organizing industry which is concentrated in your LA area.

Industry should be preparing an action plan to deal with cyanide, with a time line so that Reform and all the reform minded can meet, discuss and agree to the implementation of that plan. They should be securing the experts to assist them in setting it up.

Industry should be establishing an action plan on training, establishing its budget, securing the experts who can do this for them.

Industry should be preparing an action plan to deal with adoption of the USL and a time line for its implementation.

After you have industry's committment to do somthing, Reform would be happy to meet with you and them

 

[MaryHM]

I wouldn't waste one second of my time organizing industry to meet with your "reform" when you staunchly refuse to say who "reform" is. Give me a list of people supporting you and we'll talk.

 

[naesco]

I wouldn't waste one second of my time organizing industry to meet with your "reform" when you staunchly refuse to say who "reform" is. Give me a list of people supporting you and we'll talk.

All in good time Mary.

 

[MaryHM]

Sorry- posted in wrong place

 

[clarionreef]

Wayne,
Did you really suggest that Mary 'organize' the industry in LA...all by herself and with no bags of cash to hand out or gun?
Tell me this thing is better thought out and better understood...please.
MAC was able to get the LA importers together under the imagined threat of an industry shutdown by the USCRTF a year and a half ago... remember that? When the heat was discovered to be off...their "commitment" cooled immediately.
Tossing these things out as if the idea alone was of value is something the other side has been doing. Don't mistake the word for the achievement.
For example...lets agree to stop hunger in Somalia. Committees, NGOs, egg-heads and what not can banty that about on a permanant basis, but the word and the intention are much, much simpler to come up with then accomplishment.
Take standards of procedure for collecting, handling, holding and packing. SIMPLE! EASY! NOTHING TO IT! This stuff can be outlined at lunch and finalized before dinner! Its 2-3% of the show! Its so easy to say, write and type things you'd like to see done but thats not an achievement in itself that gets anything done. Its a guideline for people who then must translate it across cultural barriers into action. The worth of it is in the implementation...not in the verbage and dissertation .
Frankly MAC has already done the book report and compiled a serious amount of print. They have done virtually everything they can think of except the real thing. The real thing is to be a product of talent, teaching and action implementation. Without the team and the ability to do that...one remains in the 2-3% accomplishment zone.
The twin cyanide cartels of Indo and the Philippines signed 'letters of commitment' a long time ago to the MAC doctrine. Did they follow up on it and do it? Did they cease and desist with the trade in cyanide fish? Did they get born again behaviorwise? Of course not. But they signed with pen and ink and called it an achievement. If such miniscule events can be called "achievement" then what I do every day is an epic, slam-dunk victory.
Steve
PS Some of us already live the reality of importing only netcaught fish...year in and year out. Some of us are already there, [ albiet without the full, 100% species list ] Wheres the blaring of trumpets for actually walking the walk to go with the talk?

 

[naesco]

Thank you for your post, Steve.

Sadly, you are right.

Reform had hoped that that industry would recognize that the party was over and that they would sit down and work out a plan of action and timeline that would allow for Cyanide Testing, Training and an end to the import of fish from Indonesia and the Philppines where the use of cyanide is rampant.

Based on the correspondance I have received and the posts including personal attacks that everyone has read, I have serious doubts whether industry will come to the table unless they are forced to.

 

[clarionreef]

Wayne
Remember...Its the good in you that sees it in too many others. That goodwill can be mis-placed. If there were ever a quid-pro-quo from the importers, great. But they feel little pressure except the pressure to make sales...today.
Living permanantly in the short term is the definition of "wholesaler."
With or without the consent of the guilty...the trade can be reformed.
Its a Philippine thing.
Steve

 

[naesco]

Wayne
Remember...Its the good in you that sees it in too many others. That goodwill can be mis-placed. If there were ever a quid-pro-quo from the importers, great. But they feel little pressure except the pressure to make sales...today.
Living permanantly in the short term is the definition of "wholesaler."
With or without the consent of the guilty...the trade can be reformed.
Its a Philippine thing.
Steve

Well the Phiippine thing is going to end soon. And so will the Indonesian.

Reform

 

[MaryHM]

Ok. I'm a little confused by these two contradictory statements:

Reform is international. It is comprised of some of the brightest people both in industry and the hobby.

Based on the correspondance I have received and the posts including personal attacks that everyone has read, I have serious doubts whether industry will come to the table unless they are forced to.

From the first statement, you make it seem as though you have support from the "brightest people" in the industry. From the second, industry doesn't want to talk. Explain please.

Next point. Wayne, I am one of the most outspoken people for industry reform and the way you approached this "manifesto" really turned me off. I can only imagine the response of people who have absolutely no clue who you are- especially if you're sending threatening correspondence. Like I said before, no one is going to listen to you threaten them. I, along with Bob Fenner, managed to organize the only independent meeting of LA importers ever. I didn't get them to the table by threatening them. If you had come to me and said, "Mary, I'd like to really try to get some meetings together to talk about reform. Will you help me?" I would have helped in a second. But your radical approach and refusal to acknowledge the good that is being done convinced me not to get involved with you in this. It's your approach Wayne, not the goals, that will immediately repel anyone in industry from wanting to talk to you. If you could prove to me that you could be rational and not so naive, I may be willing to help you. However, if you are only interested in some kind of "shotgun reform" approach, you've lost my support for anything you do.[/quote]

 

[dizzy]

Wayne,
I just wanted to remind you that you don't really have the moral authority to take food away from the families of the fishers. I don't know who you are, but I do know that you are not God, and that you do not have the power that you think you do. Life is about compromises, it is the only way people who are so different can live together. No one gets to make the rules for everyone else Wayne, it just don't work like that.

 

[naesco]

I can understand why I confused you so let me expain.
Reform supporters include hobbyists and persons and companies associated with the marine industry.
Industry for the purposes of the manifesto is defined as those responsible for the import and export of fish from the Philippines and Indonesia and the exporters to North America. None are part of Reform, yet.

I have not sent one piece of correspondance threatening anyone. I have threatened no one although I understand fully why industry feels threatened. Were I them, I would take Reform seriously too.

I need you to help me understand your objections to the manifesto. Which of the four listed items do you not support?

I need you to help me understand why you say the approach is radical.
Reform is keeping all options open, but the best option is to have industry itself come up with a plan acceptable to Reform that deals with the manifesto. If they refuse or neglect to, Reform has no choice with proceeding with the other options because we are committed to the end of the import of cyanide fish into North America. That is not negotiable. We will listen to industrys concerns with the intent that a plan and a timeline is agree to.

I have been on this board and this forum long enough to realize the thousands of hours many of the regulars have spent on the cyanide issue, the CDT, the USL and training. I have felt your frustation with the lack of support by industry and the very very slow progress being made.

You said you know me, and I know you do. Than you know that I am reasonable, flexible and responsible. But, you also know that I am committed.

 

[naesco]

Wayne,
I just wanted to remind you that you don't really have the moral authority to take food away from the families of the fishers. I don't know who you are, but I do know that you are not God, and that you do not have the power that you think you do. Life is about compromises, it is the only way people who are so different can live together. No one gets to make the rules for everyone else Wayne, it just don't work like that.

I have the greatest admiration for the people of the Philippines and Indonesia.
They will be the greatest beneficiaries of Reform. Every fish will be saleable. The coral heads, rock and critters in and on them will be saved.

In my earlier posts, I stated that I felt that in addition to representatives from industry, and PI industry, there should be representatives from the governments of P/I so that they could learn what industry is prepared to do by way of Cyanide Detection Testing (CDT), and most importantly training.
Reform needs to know that industry is fast tracking training so that the move away from cyanide has little impact on the very people whose livelihood we are enhancing.

Dizzy, there is one rule and that rule is that cyanide will end.

 

[dizzy]

Wayne,
I want to see the cyanide end as much as anyone else. The fact is there are a lot of good people in PI and Indo that don't use cyanide and your plan will harm them too. You have had this pointed out to you countless times and you still don't get it. :roll:

 

[naesco]

Wayne,
I want to see the cyanide end as much as anyone else. The fact is there are a lot of good people in PI and Indo that don't use cyanide and your plan will harm them too. You have had this pointed out to you countless times and you still don't get it. :roll:

So how do you propose to stop the import of cyanide caught fish from the Philippines and Indonesia but allow for the import of net caught fish.?

Put forward your ideas and your plan.
Reform would love to hear from you on how to handle this.

 

[MaryHM]

Wayne,

I don't disagree with any of the points you make. Geez, they're the same points I've been making for years. Nothing new to anyone here. In fact, I'd say that I have played a major role in teaching what you know. I disagree with your "if industry doesn't do exactly what I say when I say it I'm going to blow the whistle to some radical animal rights group". I also disagree with you saying "Reform this" and "Reform that" when at this point the only people I see supporting your approach are you and maybe Lee Morey. If there is a "Reform", let us know who it is. If it's just you, say so. I'll respect you more than if you're trying to create something that isn't there. I have a real hard time dealing with people I feel are misrepresenting themselves.

If you want to start a rational process, let me know.