An excellent and relevant quote

[MaryHM]

This quote was just sent to me by someone I respect very much:

"You believe that a word from me would suffice to get something done in this sphere? What an illusion! People flatter me as long as I do not get in their way. But if I direct my efforts toward objects which do not suit them, they immediately turn to abuse and calumny in defense of their interests. And the onlookers mostly keep out of the limelight, the cowards! The silently accepted motto is "Leave it alone and say nothing about it." Albert Einstein 1934

 

[Anonymous]

I like it

 

[Anonymous]

What are your thoughts on it? As applied to the Industry?

 

[horge]

You should ask how it applies to this Forum.




.

 

[mkirda]

"You believe that a word from me would suffice to get something done in this sphere? What an illusion! People flatter me as long as I do not get in their way. But if I direct my efforts toward objects which do not suit them, they immediately turn to abuse and calumny in defense of their interests. And the onlookers mostly keep out of the limelight, the cowards! The silently accepted motto is "Leave it alone and say nothing about it." Albert Einstein 1934

Interesting quote. I don't tend to think of Einstein as being too highly skilled in interpersonal arts. Yet he recognizes here a great deal of humanity, especially within certain personality types.

I have heard off-list that people have taken this quote as a slam on John Brandt by Mary...

Funny, as I would have seen Ferdinand Cruz saying this, talking about his detractors...
Or about several reformers, trying so hard to get things done within the system...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[MaryHM]

A slam on John Brandt?? Rest assured, that is not the case at all. For those of you with overactive imaginations who insist on perpetuating a John/Mary soap opera, here are the facts:

1. John and I cleared up our differences in private. I have absolutely no animosity toward him, because he removed the "hypocrite" reference in the thread that started the problems. I can't imagine you ever seeing a scuffle between us again. And if there is, I'll make sure we put in on Pay Per View so at least he and I will get something out of it. Hey John, maybe we should do that- we could probably raise the money we need for the nets. :lol:

2. Eric Borneman actually sent me this quote privately after reading the net fund thread over on reef central. As far as I know, Eric doesn't even know about the John/Mary melodrama

3. For those of you who insist on some type of person to pit me against in order to make your own lives more exciting (not you, Mike Kirda), some advice. GET OVER IT. Aren't there better things to worry about?? I got tired of talk, talk, talking over here about the issues, so I got off my butt and DID something. The rest of you gossipping ninnies should try the same and put your time to better use.

4. Mike is right. This quote can be applied across the board to people who try to create industry reform. Be it Ferdinand, or Steve, or Peter Rubec, or anyone. And that is how it was meant to be perceived.

 

[John_Brandt]

Awwww, and I almost got the chance to think the quote was for me.

I figured somebody decided they would need Einstein to teach me a lesson. I was ready to be impressed. It takes an Einstein to whoop an Einstein. :wink: :wink:

 

[John_Brandt]

And don't nobody even think of making a joke about microEinsteins neither :x :!:

 

[dizzy]

Awwww, and I almost got the chance to think the quote was for me.

I figured somebody decided they would need Einstein to teach me a lesson. I was ready to be impressed. It takes an Einstein to whoop an Einstein. :wink: :wink:

John,
What do you think Einstein would have thought about the "Theory of Profitability"? :wink:

 

[MaryHM]

But the most important question here is this:

Did Einstein have an aquarium???

 

[dizzy]

bumb

 

[clarionreef]

Comon guys,
The point was...
Why do we trust great intellect like Einstiens in some areas like hard science ...but not in others such as Einstien on war, peace and the bomb, [ which was the doomsday issue of his later years...and affected him greatly.]
Why is the intelligence and reason that produced the theory of relativity not credible when applied to wether or not we should go ahead with the production of the bomb?
Mother Teresa was loathed by many Indian politicians and government administrators...her illumination of the poverty in India and extreme independance in fighting it shamed them.
Martin Luther King was the target of scorn and villification by the New York Times, LBJ and his FBI. ...his uncompromising anti war views infuriated them.
Ghandi...was killed by a fellow Hindu. He dared to apply his philosophy of peace in all endeavor, and extend it to Muslims..not just the benefit of Hindus..

Their detractors claimed them to be ill equiped outside their immediate arenas and wanted them to stay contained and be "useful". Afterall, expertise in one field does not automatically confer expertise in another.
Their supporters thought is a waste of a great mind to not extend itself to other concerns and focus that keen mind in the service of inequity everywhere...

It is indeed the rare soul that transcends the "economic determinism" of the day and speaks and works for purely selfless motives.

And with that in mind...where do you find this non sales oriented, selfless, non ego driven, non territorial alturism in the international aquarium trade?

Sincerely, Steve

 

[Anonymous]

And with that in mind...where do you find this non sales oriented, selfless, non ego driven, non territorial alturism in the international aquarium trade?

Why? Is there any alturism in the aquarium trade?

 

[horge]

There is altruism in the trade, sardonic wit.

When a retailer makes a conscious decision to go for net-caught only, you bet there's altruism involved, benefit it the Philippine marine environment, the Philippine fisherfolk, U.S. Hobbyists or anyone else who feels better about not having funded the poisoning of coral reefs.

When a collector goes out of his way to train and educate, there's a lot more to it than developing potential employees, especially when there is real danger to life and limb involved.

When any participant on this forum continues to contribute field information, despite real personal risk, you'd better believe there's a desire for others to profit from it.

When everyone in the hobby pitches-in hard cash and hand-to-hand slogging, to help the net-caught movement, I have think there's still some altruism in this 'trade'.

To my mind we are ALL in the trade, either as merchants, investors, consultants, or sponsors.

 

[John_Brandt]

BBC News

Wednesday, 12 June, 2002, 15:18 GMT 16:18 UK
Einstein flips his lid

The curled octopus is native to Britain

A brainy octopus rescued from a Tyneside beach has stunned aquarium staff by learning to unscrew jars to get at food.
Workers at the Blue Reef Aquarium in Tynemouth have nicknamed the ingenious cephalopod Einstein.

Staff say the creature has shown signs of increased intelligence since he was rescued from a rock pool where he was stranded.

The half-metre long curled octopus is now the star attraction of the popular tourist spot.



Octopuses are reputed to have the intelligence of a dog

Aquarium worker Matt Owen

Aquarium worker Matt Owen said Einstein tried to wrestle a thermometer out of his hands while he checked the display's water temperature.

He said: "Einstein seemed to think it was some sort of tug-of-war contest and simply wouldn't let go.

"He wasn't being aggressive, it was almost as if he wanted to play, so I decided to try a little experiment."

Opened jar

Mr Owen had heard about an American octopus learning to unscrew a jar so he tried it out himself.

After a few attempts Einstein had successfully got his tentacles around the lid and opened the jar to get at the food inside.

Mr Owen said: "Octopuses are reputed to have the intelligence of a dog.

"We think Einstein's cleverer than that so we're introducing other tests and puzzles into his display to see how smart he really is.

"We've already put in a little football in to celebrate England's qualification in the World Cup and he's playing with that."


Complex tasks

The octopus has a highly developed nervous system. Its eyes are like humans and it has the largest and most advanced brain of any invertebrate.

Despite the fact that they belong to the same family as slugs and snails, octopus can perform incredibly complex tasks.

The curled octopus get its name from their slender, tapering arms which curl at the end.

Although they are usually reddish-brown in colour they can change shades quickly and discharge ink when threatened.

They spend much of their time lying in holes and crevices or among rocks.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2040986.stm

 

[Anonymous]

Horge,

Sorry. Was catching up on my reading here in the industry forum. Reading several month's worth of postings here in one setting put me into a pessimistic mood, I guess.

How will sending netting to collectors break the back of the cyanide cartel that you have been describing?

Also, I always figured that those that collect fish are probably doing two tasks at the same time 1) collecting ornamental species for money and 2) collecting non-salable species for their own table. I visuallized the fisherfolk herding groups of fish to a rock or coral head, cyaniding it, and sorting the stunned fish. Is this a wrong understanding? I've found that people who earn their livings from the land to be very efficient and waste as little as possible. I figured that any unsalable fish were probably caught for some other purpose, probably eaten. So, if the collectors use nets to chase and collect only salable fish and they get only the same amount of money, what do they do for food for the table? Spend extra time fishing? Will some few still use cyanide when the day is done to quickly collect food for that table?

I guess what I'm asking is the following. Doesn't any successful netting program have to include increased revenues to the collectors per fish to offset the fact that they need to spend extra time doing the same amount of work? Doesn't any successful netting program have to include additional governmental police security to protect the people that are doing right from the cyanide cartel?

Sorry that my understanding is so simplistic, but I'm trying to figure this whole thing out.

Thank you,
Don

 

[mkirda]

How will sending netting to collectors break the back of the cyanide cartel that you have been describing?

I guess what I'm asking is the following. Doesn't any successful netting program have to include increased revenues to the collectors per fish to offset the fact that they need to spend extra time doing the same amount of work? Doesn't any successful netting program have to include additional governmental police security to protect the people that are doing right from the cyanide cartel?

Sorry that my understanding is so simplistic, but I'm trying to figure this whole thing out.

Thank you,
Don

Don,

There are a couple of things here to deal with:

1) Based on the few papers that exist on the cyanide trade, it was shown that cyanide exposure kills up to 80% of the fish AT EVERY STEP OF THE TRADE.

Meaning: Up to 80% during collection. Up to 80% during holding and transport. Up to 80% at the export facility. Up to 80% during shipping to the US. And finally, up to 80% at the import facility, before they ever get to the local fish store.

Those numbers should make you physically ill.

The fact that some of these numbers were generated by an group with a vested interest in Cyanide testing should raise a few hairs on the back of your neck though.

Personally, I feel like the 80% number is more likely correct when you talk about fish survival rates overall from collection to reef tank, six months on... As in only 20% or so of the fish collected with cyanide survive to live out their lives in tanks. Much more conservative number than above, but I think it is probably closer to the truth.

Even so, this number should still make you physically ill...

Net-caught fish will not suffer from this initial large loss of life, and the fish will tend to survive better due to fact that their organs were not damaged by cyanide exposure. If we could get the number down to even 10%, the actual numbers of fish harvested that survive would go up.

2) The cost of cyanide is no longer borne by collectors. This alone allows income to go up.

Someone needs to do an economic analysis of the collection process.
It would make things a whole lot simpler to understand for the layman.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

Mike,

I understand cyanide kills. It kills fish, it kills the reef, it might well kill the collectors and their families. It is very bad. It is disgusting. The loss of life is enormous. We should do whatever we can to stop it's use. That was never in question - I never questioned it.

Respectfully, what does your post have at all to do with my questions?

 

[Anonymous]

Mike in your defense I didn't fully read the last thing you said in your post.

2) The cost of cyanide is no longer borne by collectors. This alone allows income to go up.

I figured the cost of sodium cyanide was negligable when compared to the cost of netting.

 

[mkirda]

Mike,

Respectfully, what does your post have at all to do with my questions?

I guess I wasn't clear...

By not buying into the whole cyanide cycle, the collector will
1) Have less fish die during collection.
2) Have less fish die during holding.
3) Have less fish die during transport to exporter.
4) Not be charged for the cyanide used.

This alone should net the collector more income.

Additionally, collectors are getting some more money for net-caught fish *if* they are dealing with the right exporters...

I have no answer for the police force question.

Clearer?
Regards.
Mike Kirda